Oh please?
Have you tried the UMC-1 in a dedicated theater room? How about the Denon 3311? I have...been there, done that. Did you actually try the DTR 40.2? I'm well aquainted with it to say the least. Have you heard one with a good amp?
People should not review gear they have not heard. Oh, and the EQ for the sub is overkill for any good sub and a proper theater room. I didn't need to bother with it. As for auto tuning for rooms, I don't like it. I can always do better on my own as can most people I know. Using starts a baseline at best and the real tweaking for a room begins. Yes, if you don't know how to do it, then go buy a Denon and stay mid-fi.
But the main reason for these devices is to deliver the sonic goods, and the UMC-1 does this better than the Onkyo and FAR better than my now sold Onkyo.
Most of the people who pass judgement on these systems and components never actually compared them. They cruise the forums and pile on about stuff they don't own. In the beginning the UMC-1 was a mess, but it's a great unit and the very effective center of my dedicated theater. If it failed me in any respect it would fly right out with the Onkyo junk.
Rob |
Okay...how about a comment from someone with a dedicated home theater who actually owns the UMC-1?
It seems like plenty of people are forum junkies with no actual experience with the product.
The REAL story is that the UMC-1 is a FANTASTIC item that does a great job. And the real story is also that Emotiva released it FAR too soon and it was seriously in need of debugging. 6 months or so of debugging and this thread wouldn't exist.
I use mine with two BD sources and HDTV via cable. Operation is now perfect after the most recent upgrades. I previously had the Outlaw and this unit's pre-amp sounds better than that one, which I felt was on par with the Marantz.
The UMC-1 has allowed me to match the EQ of the speakers almost perfectly. There is a full 10 band EQ for each channel, so a center channel along with sides and rears can be set correctly. EmoQ works fine, but I see this type of EQ as a starting point only. The only operational flaw now? When you advance to a chapter the audio takes about a 1/2 second to engage. And that's it. I think I can trade that little issue against is easy operation and excellent preamp section!
The people who complain are always the loudest. Then there are people who love to bash a product based on that, even if they've never tried it. The UMC-1 is now ready for prime time and an incredible bargain. I think it's a better product that the 2.5 times more expensive Onkyo unit, which has inferior audio and has it's own issues.
The main thing we can all hope for is that Emotiva learned not to do this again. They HAD to know about many of these issues, but still released the product. That WAS a bad idea, and a sad error for what eventually became a great processor.
The theater!
http://GhostLight.zenfolio.com/p280561067/slideshow
Cheers,
Rob
|
Queefee, I don't know what you were thinking either.
I own a UMC-1 and it's working flawlessly in my system. It cost 1200 bucks less than my friends Onkyo processor, and it sounds better. In fact I tried it as a preamp with the Odyssey amp and Merlin speakers with surprisingly good results. No, it's not better than my tube based Stingray, but it's sound is clearly superior to some fairly expensive processors, including the Marantz for 2200 bucks.
I don't doubt some people will have troubles. Every processor does. Emotiva released FAR too early; I think we can agree on that.
But this is a great processor that competes with anything else I've seen/tried. The new firmware seems to have gotten things corrected for most users.
Rob |
While many of your comments make sense, their time has past. The UMC-1 functions beautifully now and bests my friend's Onkyo that costs far more and he waited a LONGER time for it to work properly with his Sat. TV connections.
You can READ about all of the complaints endlessly. Processors are complex and hard to use correctly even when they work. I had my own problems with the UMC-1 and all have been corrected.
You make claims that the UMC-1 is outdated. Outdated for WHAT exactly? I have a very good quality projection system and a audio system that can crush cars. Video calibration is perfect. Audio is stunning and all formats are supported for my system. I have a large dedicated theater room with 7 speakers, 3 subs and it's probably better than what most people have. The heart of the system is the UMC-1, which never has a hiccup anymore. It's so good an yet so inexpensive that many people are buying them now until Emotiva releases the next one. The killer is that it pounds better processors because of the sound quality.
You can't lose with the UMC-1, at least not now. There is NO processor at any cost I'd buy today over it. I'd like to suggest actually trying these units out with updated firmware before throwing mud. New features are fun, but they have to translate into actual performance advantages to have merit. The UMC-1 does everything most HT systems would need for quite a while. It is easy and fun to use. It's better looking than other units. And did I mention that the pre-amp section makes other units sound absolutely mid-fi by comparison?
Emotiva had a bad start with the UMC-1, but they're off and running now. BTW, I have about 20K invested in my theater room (not including the music system). I would have bought a better processor if they actually had been better.
Rob |
Kenobi, I had the 40.2 running with Parasound power for a bit. The Onkyo preamp is very old-school Japanese sounding. It lacks depth and weight. My friend runs his theater with the Marantz 8003, which is VASTLY superior in sound to the Onkyo. But even he admits the Emotiva's preamp section is better. BTW, speaker systems involved are Merlin, Magnepan, Focal and Def tech.
Chadnliz, I own Emotiva amps as well as Odyssey, Rotel and the beautiful tube based Manley Stingray II. I've also had Parasound, Rogue and others. I don't comment on gear that I've never heard or heard once at a shop. The gear I discuss has been in my home.
Denon is mid-fi. It's good stuff. But you're being silly if you think a Denon anything will match the Emotiva gear. Using a Rogue Metis preamp the UPA-1 monoblocks held their own against a Odyssey stratos and certainly bested the Rotel 1075. You might also want to read my comparison of how the Emotiva ERC-1 CD player did vs. a far more expensive tube based player. If you don't actually hear this stuff with appropriate associated gear then you have no idea.
Sorry guys. Get back to me when you actually do more than read about these components. Like I said, my system is elaborate. I would not tolerate the UMC-1 if it wasn't excellent. I'm anxious to see Emotiva's full blown processor coming soon.
Rob
Rob |
The Anthem D2v is an expensive unit that I have heard several times. Have you compared it's sound to the Emotiva unit? Have you compared a highly regarded amp like the Odyssey Stratos or Parasound Halo to the Emotiva using a good pre-amp?
Your comments remind me of a friend who was telling me that Definitive Technology "Buys" all of their good reviews. He had heard their big tower speakers many times and they were steely, bright and two dimensional. So, after letting him listen to my new Merlin speakers I then connected my mid-fi Def Tech towers to the Manley Stingray amp and his draw dropped. Not that they were a match for a high end Merlin speaker, but he certainly learned why the speakers are well reviewed. The same goes for many components including the Emotiva amps.
Again, the Emotiva processor's issues are fixed. I own it and the latest firmware upgrades repaired all problems.
It's no fun to consider that a 7000 dollar product sounds no better or inferior to a 1000 dollar product. But it happens all the time in audio.
BTW, I don't consider ANY processor high end gear regardless of cost. The Onkyo, Marantz and Anthem units are not worth their cost (based on my experience with them) when you hear what a company like Emotiva is doing. True, I'm a recent tube convert, so a lot of SS gear sounds mid-fi to me these days.
As for Lexicon, I always thought their gear was pseudo-high-end and laughed hysterically when a dealer told me about the tests of their BD-30 blu-ray player. Getting what you pay for takes a lot of hard work. When someone, who spent a ton of cash on a component hears about something with the same functionality for a lot less, they prefer to assume that theirs is better. Understandable, but it's often not the case. I have an expensive tube based CD player next to a 300 dollar Oppo player that illustrates that point very nicely.
Cheers,
Rob |
GHstudio,
You're correct as I do have a dedicated theater room that has been rebuilt to achieve good sonics. But I've had this debate before and I maintain that I can easily do better tuning a system in ANY room than the various systems out there. So can most of my audiophile friends.
For that reason the automated tuning feature, while nifty, was of no interest to me with ANY of the processors I tried. I evaluated them based on sonics.
If someone lacks the skills to tune a system, then I agree 100% to go with a Denon or Onkyo. But using their auto tune feature utterly failed for me and I could always improve on those settings with ease.
All of that aside, the UMC-1 has a superior pre-amp section and the issues have been resolved. Again, I have a system that represents a big investment in money and time. If the UMC-1 was never debugged and sonically poor I'd toss it on the trash.
Rob |
Hi James
To name expensive products that fall short of less expensive ones is not hard to do. I recently posted a shootout between CD players costing over 3K vs. a Oppo player that cost 300 dollars.
In the world of speakers I've heard models costing over 10K that I didn't find worth 10 dollars, but to name them would be trolling.
You can't "buy" the best systems. They have to be assembled with years of listening experience and an ear for synergy.
Rob |
Chadnliz, have you listened to the UMC-1 vs. the Onkyo and Marantz models that cost many times the price? If so was it with the same amps?
I'm only asking because I have heard these products. I have no stock in any of them. If the Marantz, Denon or Onkyo were better I'd say so and STILL be happy with the UMC-1 since it does a very good job for my application. So I'll score it simply:
Ease of Use:
All three units are a pain to set up, even if you know how to tune for a room yourself. But any of them can be tuned better by ear if you spend the time. And it's time well spent.
Ease of Use using the Auto-Tune systems:
I felt Denon got it much closer to what I'd finally wanted.
Sound quality:
There is no question in my mind (or any of my friends who own the other models) that the UMC-1 is superior. It's even surprisingly good in two channel audio!
Cosmetics:
The UMC-1 is one of the few units around that isn't covered with a bazillion buttons, looking like a 90's receiver or Bob Carver's nightmare. It's low profile and elegant.
Remote:
The Emotiva all metal remote looks the best, but it's horrible in use. I like the Marantz remote.
As for Lexicon, I'm not a fan. What they did with the Oppo reflected a way of doing business that some installer friends had told me about for years and my impressions based on listening only added to that. Still, the move with the Oppo redress was awful.
Rob |
PS: No one should take this too seriously! It's just audio gear and most of us will have totally different stuff in 5 years anyway.
Except for my Merlin speakers, which I may be buried with!
Rob |
Well...I have directly compared the Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-2 to some fairly good SS amps. You can do an search and see my comparison between the Emotiva XPA-3 and Rotel 1090, Odyssey Stratos and so on.
I have always wondered how people judged amps as anything without hearing them through several pre-amps.
Other insane items from Emotiva are their CD player which I also recently compared to the Rega Saturn (and others) and their USP-1 preamp, which lost in it's shootout with a Rogue Metis tube pre-amp, but not by much.
Obviously much of this is subjective. What sounds cold to you may sound detailed and accurate to someone else. I don't use the Emotiva gear for music much, but for home theater it's as good as anything I've tried. As I said, I've abandoned SS completely for amp/preamp on music.
Rob |
Well, James....in this case insane refers to the fact that Emotiva has several items on the market that are priced at a 3rd of what they should be.
The vast majority of those who bash companies like Emotiva, Outlaw and several other direct-to-buyer outfits, reject them with little to no real experience.
Years ago I owned a fairly good Parasound amp. My friend went out an bought an Outlaw amp for 40% less. Though I knew the paper specs were impressive I had faith that my Parasound would be better than the "bargain." It was poor logic as Outlaw's business model was to match or best amps like mine for less by not supporting ads and a dealer network. Of course these days Outlaw gets a good deal of respect. Emotiva is in that same camp, slowly gaining ground and is slowly pushing the boundaries of what some call "mid-fi." For home theater it's not just a good value, it's an insane one!
Rob |
You never really answered my question above. Are you "beating" Audessey with an 11 band graphic EQ, with fixed frequencies and no adjustable Q?>>>
Easily. And I'll make it very simple. I can almost always improve on what the the Integra processor can do without even touching the EQ. The poor thing can't even get the basic settings for volume right, almost always overcooking the bass and usually the rears as well. Audessey can't even come close to what an experienced set of ears can do.
Frankly, it's so well known by the installers I've spoken to in NY, that I'm surprised anyone is even thinking that automated EQ gets it right.
I'll make this statement perfectly clear: If you rely 100% on these automated systems you're not hearing everything your system is capable of, regardless of the room.
Rob |
I've used the best processors from Denon, Marantz and Onkyo. The Denon and Onkyo units lived in my systems. I've also heard plenty of other units out there. I think they're all pretty good, but generally can't do analogue 2 channel very well. So what? That's what my tube gear is for.
Fast forward to the UMC-1, which not only sounded better on two channel music, but also less harsh and abrasive when watching movies (to my shock). Since I spent money making my dedicated theater room reasonably flat and free of harsh reflections, it's easy not to like Onkyo for example.
Now....as to using the mic and auto calibration on these units: They work "okay" at best and never really get it right. In fact I've NEVER heard an automated EQ system get it right in any room. BTW, my friend owns a shop and does installations. It's his bread & butter to do better than the these automated programs and he's well paid for it. FYI, he's done some work for some pretty heavy music industry clients in custom theaters far beyond mine in scope. Audessey is not part of the job. He's expected to do better.
Using the UMC-1 I can customize the levels, EQ and delay on each speaker; it takes time and careful experimentation to get correct. It also means using many reference sources and day after day of reevaluations. My friends and I are fairly high end users with this gear. It's okay to use the gee-wiz features on these processors, but you're kidding yourself if you think someone can't do better.
Now....using the Denon's gee-wiz system I was able to get closer FASTER to the final level of optimization. That's it's only value, as a STARTING point. If you want to get 40-70% of the system potential then rely entirely on Audessey. There is NO substitute to carefully tuning a system over time, which also includes tedious speaker placement, room treatments system matching. The very nature of the mics typically employed (and their placement) is the first of many problems that make Audessey (and all of it's cousins)a dorm room toy on the same level as sound bars and cheap tube amps for Ipods.
It's only natural to believe that these systems "get it right" since that's so much easier than carefully tweaking your system to an even higher level. If it sounds good to you (as users proclaim) than mission accomplished via Onkyo and all the rest. But it sure didn't sound good enough to me or my friends and quite a few others.
Cheers,
Rob |
My friends and I don't "think" we can beat Audessey. We know we can as we've easily improved on it time after time. It's not even CLOSE to what we were able to finally achieve after taking real time to dial in the system.
Again, it's EASY to accept that these automated systems get it right. Why think otherwise when it will just lead to a lot of work? I have heard probably more than 50 high end theater systems in homes over the last 5 years and not one used Audessey (or any automated settings) except for the initial set ups.
Oh, and you can't just get the "best speaker position and well thought our room treatments" and then expect to simply tune from there. You have to see-saw back and forth. A simple change to my center channel high freq. curve let to a change in it's previously "perfect" placement.
I love the idea of a automated home theater system. It's certainly a great idea for the masses. But it's amateur hour for serious systems, at least for now. Most users actually employ a mic that costs less than 20 bucks! It's laughable. As I said, you may employ these systems for a head-start, but getting that ideal tune takes a lot of work and time.
Sorry....no fun hearing it, but it's true.
Rob |
Well, I have limited experience with the Anthem 2, especially in setting one up. It's a very good sounding unit.
Most people won't admit that "most" of the automatic EQ systems don't work well. It's a shame because even a 400 dollar Denon receiver can do FAR better than they realize.
I'd also like to point out that one setting does not work across the board anyway. Watching The Expendibles I quickly realized that a quick adjustment in bass and center made for a more enjoyable listening experience. And the remastered Treasure of Sierra Madre benefited from additional tweaks while Avatar liked my standard settings just fine.
Getting back to room EQ via the unit, when my friend does an installation he uses a directional dialogue mic (the sort used on movie sets) to reduce errors.
So back to the original point:
I have found, after a short wait for an update, that the UMC-1 is a match for virtually every processor I've heard. At the very least it's sonically superior to the Onkyo and Marantz units, which cost much more. Early adopters certainly felt burned, but that's history now. The unit is a fantastic buy to say the least. Emotiva is also poised to release a higher end processor shortly. It has a even better pre-amp section and even more bells and whistles. Buyers of the UMC-1 get 50% off!
So I'm pretty happy with Emotiva to say the least!
Rob |
James, do what I did. Wait until the dust settles before buying a processor from anyone. 4-6 months is usually fine. I usually do that with ANY gear of this type, even DSLRs. By doing that I ended up with an incredible processor for 1/4 the cost of my previous one and no issues.
Rob |
James, I have no idea of what you're talking about, but if you rely on forums nonsense that's what you'll end up with.
So here's some "truth" to chew on:
1) Before I ordered my UMC-1 I contacted Emotiva and they outlined the problems that still existed for some users. They were effecting mainly Sat. TV customers and some cable users. They even told me which cable boxes they were still working on; it was only a few.
2) None of problems lined up with my cable & Blu-ray sources so I ordered the unit.
3) It came and it had a couple of bugs. Occasionally it would not power down. Twice it made a loud static sound. Skipping chapters on DVD's would leave the audio dropped out for about 1/2 second before it locked.
4) Emotiva was 100% up front about the existing issues and the firmware update a few weeks later did the rest.
5) Discussions with the folks with Emotiva and my e-mailed questions were ALWAYS handled properly and in a friendly manner. This was not the case with Onkyo BTW.
6) The Onkyo unit that I had (costing three times the UMC-1)had bugs of it's own that they never cleared up (including audio drop outs and video signal lock issues) and they took far longer to fix.
7) After owning 6 processors, the UMC-1 is the first where I was able to speak to the engineers directly who were working on the issues and knew the facts.
8) My UMC-1 works flawlessly using Comcast HD cable, PS3 Blu-Ray, Sony TV, Oppo BD and also occasionally for music.
A LOT of products have issues when they're released. I have no idea why you want to call anyone names. If the unit had issues I'd be all over it. I'm sorry. It works well and has only had a few bugs to cure. I have invested large amounts of money into my theater right down to installing a beam and special treatments. If the Onkyo or Marantz were better, I'd own them.
If anyone is local to Carmel NY and would like a demo of this system using the UMC-1 I'd be happy to show it off. My system clobbers most small theaters!
James, I put my money where my mouth is. But I don't buy blindly. I did my homework on the UMC-1 and waited for the dust to settle. And I got a better processor by doing so. I plan to do the same with their higher end model in a few months....and with 50% off!
Cheers,
Rob |
>>
James, when I owned the Onkyo there were even more complaints. They were resolved for anyone who waited. MOST UMC-1 owners seem to be quite happy after the updates. So what are you so upset about? Don't buy it, but don't attack something you have no current inexperience with.
"Emotiva was 100% up front about the existing issues and the firmware update a few weeks later did the rest."
Not true and you know it."
Sorry, James. But I had three discussions on the phone with the folks at Emotiva. Read the forums and you'll learn that they actually pick up the phone.
"After owning 6 processors, the UMC-1 is the first where I was able to speak to the engineers directly who were working on the issues and knew the facts."
So you spoke with the engineers in China (Tonewinner?)
Now you're being silly.
"If anyone is local to Carmel NY and would like a demo of this system using the UMC-1 I'd be happy to show it off. My system clobbers most small theaters!"
Wow, that is impressive. Are you going to buy the Emo C.I series which is supposed to clobber skywalker ranch ?
"So here's some "truth" to chew on:"
Truth is in the eye of the beholder. You want to cheerlead for emo, good for you. You do put your money where your mouth is if you own the products. As I said I find the owner to be a huckster in what he says. Throw all the heartburn inducing bbq's you want, doesn't change what you are.>>
Truth is what IS. It's not open to interritation. Does the UMC-1 work well now? That's the original question. I gave an answer. It made you unhappy. Care to explain why? James, the truth is that one of us has a dedicated home theater room that was rebuilt to accommodate a screen over 10 feet wide, 4 subs and HD projection. The system is beautifully run by the UMC-1. I've posted pics of it. So anytime you actually want to make a valid point based on tests of the current UMC-1 vs. other brands, we'll all be waiting.
You seem to want to troll, so I agree....you've beaten the horse and can have the last word. I'm screening The African Queen on Blu-Ray this evening with my lovely wife.
Cheers and good night,
Rob |
Chadnliz,
That's a reasonable way to look at it. All I can say is what I experienced after owning Bot the Onkyo & Marantz processors. It's fair to say that THEY are not giant killers. ALL had bugs. NONE had as many bugs as the UMC-1 when it was released. I've never paid more than 2700.00 (give or take a few bucks) for a new processor.
And with all of that said I can honestly report that in my system using Comcast HD cable, PS3, Oppo DVD BD, Apple TV I have zero issues. Even the friend who bought my Onkyo agrees the UMC-1 sounds better.
Does that make it a giant killer? Of course not. None of these processors are ever going to be as good as my Manley or Rogue preamps. But I am a guy who actually OWNS the gear. I toss out what doesn't meet my demands and cry loudly if I think a product is flawed.
So....my statement is this: Anyone looking at the current Onkyo or Marantz processors should try to find someone with the UMC-1 so they can hear it for themselves. If you want to spend 4-7K then I expect you'd be getting a far better pre-amp section in the bargain and that's a different animal.
Thanks for the measured reply.
Rob |
Mateored,
The UMC-1 sounds about the same as an Onkyo or Marantz processor in home theater applications.
HOWEVER.....If you plan to rely heavily on automated EQ I believe that the Marantz is strongest in that area. If you're experienced enough to set up the settings on your own I seriously doubt anyone could tell the UMC-1 apart from most processors while watching Avatar.
HOWEVER Part 2.....On music material including 2 channel audio listening the UMC-1 rises above the others. And I'll also include Denon in that pack. The UMC-1 is an unusually musical processor, so much so that I even tried using with my superb Merlin speakers.
HOWEVER Part 3.....If the UMC-1 is equal or a bit better than processors in the 2-3K range, then I'd really suggest holding of until their new unit is released in the next few months. It will have bugs, but probably less than the UMC-1 did when it was released. I'd give it 2-3 months and get that unit which will most probably BE the so called "giant killer."
Never believe people who haven't owned the gear and are using it currently.
Good luck,
Rob |
No processor I have used....not the Marantz, Onkyo or Outlaw were released bug free.
In fact it's nearly impossible to do so and to suggest otherwise points to a seriously ignorant buying public at this level. There is simply no way to build a processor that will be 100% computable with all sources. Cable and Sat. TV sources are the most problematic as they are a constantly moving target. My own cable provider has upgraded my box 3 times in two years. The 2nd upgrade caused all kinds of issues with my Onkyo. Then there are hundreds of other sources/gear which fail to follow exacting standards.
My Marantz had three times more firmware upgrades than the UMC-1.
We can go back and forth with this all day. The bottom line TODAY is that the UMC-1 is so slayer of giants, but I know it's superior to the Onkyo, Marantz and Denon units. Problems from months ago don't interest me, but having a great sounding stable processor does. If you own most of the other brands you paid MOST of your money for advertising. And if you're seriously looking for something better than a UMC-1, don't be silly by suggesting Marantz, Denon or Onkyo. They are generally harsher sounding units.
The rest of the comments here are old news and science fiction.
Rob |
Chandnliz, I was mistaken in thinking you were a reasonable fellow. You persist in bashing a product you don't own. Furthermore, all of the proof about the UMC-1 CURRENT status is easily read on the Emo forums, but apparently the truth is of no concern to you.
1) Please define the current bugs that make my UMC-1 a problem.
2) Onkyo and Marantz had bugs when released. In fact the Marantz would power down only when unplugged when I first got it! They fixed it quickly though. I owned the Rotel for a short time. It had what we call "Sony sound" and I quickly dumped it.
But I'm glad you pointed out that the Onkyo, Marantz offerings are no better, though they are far more expensive. I'd love to pit the current Anthem against the UMC-1 for overall sound quality.
Please grow up and stop accusing people of "shilling." I don't work for Emotiva. I sell yachts and own a website to keep me knee deep in toys.
Based on the e-mails I've gotten (thanks) I'll let two people who don't own the gear currently take their last shots. It's clear what their motives are, I agree.
Cheers,
(and see my system!)
Rob |
Jim, I can't get this message to you (keeps coming back even though I'm hitting return with correct address), so I'm posting here and ignoring all of the nonsense above.
Check the UMC-1 forum on the Emo site and contact owners about any bugs still existing. I think you'll be pleased to see what the truth is. Everything else is old news, but take a look for yourself. You're in NJ, which is not too far. No need to take anyone's "word." You can see/hear for yourself.
And no, I have yet to hear ANY processor that is audiophile quality and I've heard units costing in the 6K range. Again, listen for yourself and decide. I own a tube based system along with Merlin speakers for music listening as I never expected a theater system to get it done right. You'd need to move BIG speakers for that to work and I have a dedicated room. You can try me at Thomas35s5@aol.com as well. If you post a query on the MJ Sub elsewhere I can respond and I'm sure others will respond, but a quick answer is this: The MJ and REL subs are about equal, but I find them best for music. A big SVS Ultra sub is great for theater, better even than the Fathom 13", but the Fathom 13" does music better. If you can only go with ONE sub get the Fathom. If you want the best of both worlds get the SVS Ultra and add the MJ or REL for music.
Happy Festivus!
Rob |
