to audio_d,
Well I have cleaned my 1st us pressing of Joe Walsh James gang rides again with the Ultrasonic machine I purchased. It was close to un-listenable. I have cleaned it with my Vinyl Vac i'd say 3 times before. 2 days ago I cleaned it with my Cheap Vevor Ultasonic Machine. 1st clean was for 30 minutes. It was better with some gunk on the bottom of the bath, 2nd clean for the same time at 90 degrees Fahrenheit it was shocking the difference all the snaps crackles and pops was gone! I saved one of my favorite albums. Each time distilled rinse and vac dried. So I would not count that as useless. I have proven results. 52 Year old album brought back from the dead.
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I've got the Spin Clean. How should I supplement?
TIA
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jjBeason12,
I would use the spin clean as a distilled final rinse or you can use it as a pre clean with your favorite cleaner and get a cheap 1 gallon pump action "bug" sprayer at home depot and give your Ultrasonic cleaned a distilled rinse pick up a pair of manual clamp "glass movers" to protect the labels and easy hold for distilled rinsing.
I’ve scene many people do it this way for final distilled rinse. You could use the pump over a sink or big tupper ware storage box.
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@jjbeason14: I would encourage you to do a pre-cleaning of the LP before immersing it in the Spin Clean tank, especially if you buy used records. Why, you ask? By running tap water over the LP in the sink (at the pre-cleaning stage tap water will suffice) and gently "washing" the record with a paint trim pad and mild detergent (read all about it in the Neil Antin-penned treatise referred to above, the Bible of record cleaning), you are removing at least some of any large particles of dust and debris present on the PVC (and in the LP’s grooves). The record will therefore not shed it’s now-removed dirt into the water in the Spin Clean, preventing that water from becoming contaminated. Various clear plastic label protectors are available on ebay and Amazon, the one I bought having a handle with which to hold the LP whilst cleaning.
If you want to get really nutty, buy a second Spin Clean, adding a couple of drops of a surfactant (Talas Tergitol 15-S-9) and cleaning agent (Alconox Liquinox) to the distilled water in the first, pure distilled water in the second for a final rinse. If you can spend a couple hundred bucks more, some people prefer to suck the water off the clean-but-wet LP with a Record Doctor vacuum machine (the cheapest available), rather than leaving the LP to air dry (unless you’re room is very dust-free, you know what leaving an LP out will result in: dust on the record).
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Hey, is it possible that the Spin Clean is causing static?
I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere, and it might be my experience. I'm still testing it out though.
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For those suffering from static on your LP’s: I enthusiastically recommend the Furutech DeStat III. I for years suffered with the Zerostat (I still have my original pre-Milty), then discovered the much better (far less "fussy") Nagaoka Kilavolt No. 103, which I used for 25 years (a quarter century?! Time flies when you’re having fun ;-) .
Furutech introduced the original DeStat years ago, but it wasn’t until the "III" version was introduced that I desired and acquired (look out Dylan ;-) one. I had reservations about the design of the I and II. The DeStat III? Fan-f*cking-tastic! Very easy to use, and VERY effective at killing static on PVC (LP’s are NOT made of vinyl). The DeStat III is, unfortunately, not cheap. It retails for $390, and sells for that price down into the low-to-mid $300's. I waited until one came up on eBay, somehow getting mine (new) for $200. I’m a patient guy, and a cheapskate ;-) .
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Consumer alert:
For those apprehensive about ordering a product with a less than perfect reputation for reliability from a Hong Kong company such as Humminguru (understandable imo), that ultrasonic cleaner is now available on Amazon. $499 (free shipping, of course) for the machine and the optional adapters for 7" and 10" discs.
I don't know what the warranty is like, but if you buy on Amazon you can at least immediately return the HG hassle-free if it arrives DOA. If I had $500 to spend on a single cleaning method, I believe I'd go for the HG.
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I found this online:
Does Spin-Clean damage records?
I've cleaned about a thousand records with my Spin-Clean, and I haven't had a problem with any residue or greasy coating, but I DID have a problem with increased crackle that got better after a play or two. It was most noticeable on new records, as they are generally very quiet to begin with.
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I"m debating whether or not to return the Spin Clean and maybe getting the HG or something else.
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Anyone have a solution? People Rave about the Spin Clean.
:unsure:
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bdp24, FYI, vinyl = PVC. If you believe the internet, "Vinyl is not a natural substance but is a synthetic man-made material. It is a type of plastic that is made from ethylene (found in crude oil) and chlorine (found in regular salt). When processed, both the substances are combined to form Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) resin, or as is commonly referred to – Vinyl."
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Just called Spin Clean and they seemed to think it's a drying issue.
Going to give it a try. Says no air drying. Use the cloths that came with the system.
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Right @lewm, LP's are made of PVC. But it is my understanding that the terms PVC and vinyl are not synonymous. Am I mistaken? I've seen sheets of vinyl the same thickness as LP's, and the two don't at all look the same. LP's are much stiffer than vinyl.
In any case, LP's (the plural of LP) should not be referred to as vinyls ;-) . IMO, of course.
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Still Snap Crackle Pops
:mad:
Which would be a decent drying machine (vacuum?) at a reasonable price to supplement?
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FWIW, the record is a blend of polyvinyl chloride (PVC) and polyvinyl acetate (PVA), and together under heat they form a copolymer (once formed does not separate) and is sometimes called polyvinyl chloride-acetate (PVCa); and there are various types of PVCa depending on the quantity of PVA. PVA is what mostly provides the flexibility but should not be confused with flexible PVC that has plasticizer added which is actually a solvent and the plasticizers used can be extracted and over time can migrate from the PVC. If the record actually used any amount of plasticizer, it would never last as long as it can (>100 yrs).
So, while its common to call the record PVC or vinyl, it's not, but these are easy and accepted terms.
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@jjbeason14,
First, air drying does not cause static.
However, if you are using the Spin Clean cleaning agent and not drying with their cloths, you may allow cleaner residue to dry on the surface.
Simple things to try:
1. Whatever concentration you are using for the cleaning agent, reduce by 50% and make sure to mix only with distilled or demineralized water (DIW).
2. After cleaning have a clean spray bottle with DIW and lightly spray the record to rinse aways most of the cleaning agent that is only the record.
3. Dry the record - use their cotton cloths to remove most moisture until the record is mostly dry, then allow to air dry - it should only take 5-10 minutes at most.
4. The common carbon fiber brush is mostly useless to remove static - they are not properly grounded - this brush which is cheaper than most - should work much better - -Grounded- Improved for 2022 Carbon Fiber Record Brush (turntableneedles.com). When using the brush attach the ground cable to any ground post - people often use phono-preamp ground post. When using the brush only lightly touch the record - no need to dig it in.
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Thanks antinn!
I'm going to try something:
'Cleaning' a new unopened record and see what happens when I Spin 'Clean' it.
Will report back.
Thanks again!
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Ok...just opened a new record and Spin Cleaned it.
Result? The same. No static or pops.
Anyone have an idea why this happens with lightly used vinyl?
Thanks
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Many reasons, just a few:
IV.10 Records that have been fully cleaned can still sound – for want of a better term – bad; clicks, pops, hiss, and distortion. There are any number of reasons such as following, but no amount of cleaning is going to fix these physical defects.
IV.10.1 For new records: Poor recording.
IV.10.2 For new records: Problems with the stamper. The stamper prepared during the plating process may have defects. It may have been prepared dirty so that the surface has the impressions of very fine/microscopic particulate. The stamper may have been overused and is now deteriorated and/or shedding metal particles that are embedded in the record.
IV.10.3 For new records: deficiencies with the record formulation. As previously stated, repressed material may not have the same qualities as virgin material. The material blend can be out of tolerance leaving the record with an inconsistent surface. This may be the source of the common incorrect theory that new records need to have the ‘mold release’ removed. Evidence of oil-splotches is the result of poor record formulation.
IV.10.4 For new records: deficiencies with the pressing. Incorrect pressing heat, pressure and time can leave un-filled areas. Incorrect pressing cooling and time can result in material pulled during separation leaving microscopic defects. Note: It is not uncommon for a clean new record to sound noisy for the first few plays. This is not uncommon. There are often microscopic burrs left from the pressing process, and the first few plays essentially ‘burnish’ the surface, removing the burrs.
IV.10.5 For new and used records: Obvious deep scratches. Very light surface scratches are often of no consequence. For used records, many light surface scratches may indicate use of once popular automatic changers that could play a stack of many records.
IV.10.6 For used records: Groove damage such as trenching from many plays with conical and elliptical stylus. Groove damage can also be from an over-worn stylus. In this case the stylus carves/chisels away the side-wall ridges. However, Shibata and other advanced profile stylus can sometimes bridge the trench made by conical and elliptical stylus. However, damage caused by Shibata (or equivalent) is likely “terminal”.
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Thanks antinn,
I cleaned the stylus and it seemed to help. Not perfect, but better.
What is the next step? US and/or Vacuum device?
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I should mention that the stylus is fine when playing new vinyl.
So ,it's not the stylus.
FYI
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Is it possible to get a record to sound like a cd or will there always be subtle static in the backround?
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You do seem to be going in circles! Yes, you can get a used record as quiet as a CD, but it depends on the record. Dirt can be removed, scratches cannot.
As for vacuum vs. U/S, you've already had my thoughts on that.
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Klaudio ultrasonic vynil cleaner is excellent if it won’t have issues? I don’t know if Acoustic sounds has a designated repair shop just in case issues show up? Onother process is by hand using audio intelligent solution ? I spray the record a bit then , I spread it with soft brush? Then I used painter cornering brush with little pressure then I wipe it with anti static towel and dry it? It works for me.
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My budget is now $375 after buying the Deluxe Spin Clean.
I may return it.
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@jjbeason14,
Vacuum RCMs are mostly about convenience - they suck the fluid from the surface. The chemistry used, the brush used, and your technique determine how clean the record will be. There are very high $$$$ vacuum-RCM that have automated cleaning, but nothing near your budget.
Ultrasonic offers a cleaning method that mostly eliminates your technique as a variable. But they have limits, and used records generally need a pre-clean and many people use a Spin-Clean or vacuum-RCM for that purpose. At your budget, the HG is not a bad ultrasonic unit - it's mostly automated and many people like it.
Will any cleaning method produce miracles - no. As I wrote above, there are many reasons why 'new' records can be noisy. Can 'some' records pressed by the better plants on good vinyl near CD background noise quality - yes.
However, how you handle the record, your environment and turntable mat, can all compromise the best cleaning process. Everyone has their own rituals on how they handle and play records and the various opinions are at best wide-ranging.
After all is said and done, my recommendation is always the best process is/are the ones best for you, and only you really know that. Some people are perfectly happy with a full manual process, others want the convenience of vacuum RCM, and others want the ultimate convenience of a fully automated machine. But just about any cleaning process can be yield exceptional results with the appropriate attention to detail which is why the book Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records-3rd Edition - The Vinyl Press is 190 pages.
Good Luck
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What I"m frustrated with antinn is that the Spin Clean, despite the awards, doesn't improve the static or pops at all. It remains the same.
👎
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I do appreciate your input thought.
Thanks Again!
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I returned the Spin Clean.
Thinking about picking up the Humminguru US.
Anyone have any experience with it?
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Also, what's the humminguru equivalent?
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Thanks antinn!
I will look into it.
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@jjbeason14
Sorry to hear your frustration with record cleaning.
Surface noice is very dependent on your turntable, this is the primary determinate of surface noise. If you have a high end turntable, tone arm and cartridge… you are not going to hear them much. That is the first defense against noise. I have a very good system. Noise is almost non-existent. For me, it would be silly not to have a relatively good cleaning machine… so, I own the Nessie.
First of all, cleaning and maintaining vinyl is like all of high end audio… it cost money. A basic quality cleaning machine is going to cost at least a couple thousand plus or minus. I own a Nessie… around $3K. It does a very good job, but about 5% of albums do not get rid of the pops and crackles. I have always wondered if a ultrasonic would clean these… not sure… but I am ok with tossing 5% or living with a little poping.
What you hear is dependent on your TT, tone arm, cartridge and cleaning machine. I have a $50K analog end including cleaning machine… pops and crackles are basically non existent on my 2,000 album collection.
My point is that the sound you get is the result of all your analog components and pops and crackles are not just cleaning. I don’t remember if you showed your system, but until you get into a high end turntable noise is a problem and record cleaning is also cost dependent.
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Thanks ghd!
I've got a Technics 1500C Turntable.
TIA
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I've also got a mid 80's Denon 50 watt reciever. Not sure how relevant that is.
I've got good cables both speaker and rca's as well.
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Dear @antinn I greatly appreciate for sharing your knowledge and your experise and I would like to kindly ask you about rinsing with tap water.
I'm currently using a Pro-ject VC-E RCM and recently I was provided by a friend from US a small bottle of Tergikleen and I'm very satisfield with the cleaning job it does. I would prefer to use Tergitol but unfortunately it is not easy to find it in Europe.
Tergikleen manufacturer recommends a very good water rinse after the application of the product and I'm not sure if I'm doing it properly using a spay bottle of DIW that I apply with a make-up brush and then I vacuum. I suppose that a good rinse means several cycles, but not sure how much is enough...
My question is what if after the application of Tergikleen I rinse the record with tap water under the tap, then vacum and finally rinse again with DIW and vacuum again?
The water hardness in my area is 137 mg/lt which is considered as soft.
Do you think adding this tap water rinse cycle in my process I risk of leaving mineral deposits behind?
Thank you for your advice!
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"until you get into a high end turntable noise is a problem and record cleaning is also cost dependent"
my experience is different. I have the cheapest system and with clean or new vinyl, I hear absolutely 0 noise, hiss or pop.
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@odysseas_gr,
Yes, you can first rinse the Tergikleen with tap water and then immediately follow with DIW rinse and vacuum, but here is an alternative. When using tap water, the key is not to allow it to dry.
First, make sure you are using the Tergikleen at the manufacturer's recommended concentration which is 12-20 drops to a gallon (3.8 litres) of distilled water or 3-5 drops to a quart (.95 litre) of distilled water.
After cleaning, perform two rinse/vacuum cycles. For the 1st rinse cycle, do not fully dry the record. For each rinse, apply about 10-ml of distilled water to the record. When applying the DIW, you only need to brush lightly. Note: I am not saying to measure out the rinse DIW each time. But you should measure it out once to eyeball what 10-ml of distilled water looks like on the record. Many people do not use enough rinse water with vacuum-RCMs.
FYI - the above was developed recently with someone in the UK, and we spiked a cleaning solution of known ingredients and concentration with a high-performance UV fluorescent dye. What the dye showed is that when using blower-style vacuum-RCMs (like the Project), not all fluid is sucked off the surface. Some fluid is evaporated in-place (20-30%), leaving behind cleaner residue. Two rinse cycles (with 10-ml DIW) were needed fully remove the cleaner (and whatever it removed from the record). Also, for the cleaning step, 6-ml was used; any more and rapid agitation with the brush (necessary for best results) would fling cleaner from the surface. Many people do not use enough cleaner on the record to get good cleaning with vacuum-RCM.
If you are using the same brush throughout, after cleaning with Tergikleen and the first rinse, rinse the brush with DIW spray into a sink or bucket.
Note that as an alternative to Tergitol 15-S-9 you can substitute Polysorbate-20 which is a concentrated water-soluble nonionic surfactant that is similar and is common in cosmetics and generally readily available worldwide. It's not as good as Tergitol 15-S-9, but it is good enough. Details on use of Polysorbate 20 are addressed in the free book - Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records-3rd Edition - The Vinyl Press
Take care,
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@antinn thank you for your reply! Very helpful and precious information!
Very good to know the exact amount to use for both the solution and the rinse cycels!
I'm not using the same brush throughout, I have a goat hair brush for applying the solution and a make-up brush to apply the DIW
Polysorbate-20 is indeed available and very cheap too!
As it is not as good as Tergitol 15-S-9, might a small amount of IPA help to make it more effective?
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@odysseas_gr,
The difference between Tergitol 15-S-9 and Polysorbate 20 is mostly surface tension. It's up to you if you want to want to play around with IPA. If you do decide to mix in IPA, fix mix in the Polysorbate 20 then add the IPA or the Polysorbate 20 will not dissolve very quickly. Because of liability (flammability & toxicity), I never recommend more than 2.5% IPA. But note that at 10% IPA, the fluid is classified in the US as flammable - see the book Chapter VIII for details. Also, be careful of what IPA you use. Use 91% pharmaceutical or better - the book Chapter VIII has the details.
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