Mapman my old friend,
Why don't we have a tweaking session and report back. Choose a cheap tweak. I'm going to give that "chip" a try.
Did you ever try the Hifi tuning fuse in your ARC Pre?
If not I would highly recommend some deoxit and clean all the contacts with it, including inputs, outputs, tubes pins, and the fuse holder then try the dreaded fuse. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
I saw parts connexion have a sale on so you may save a few $.
I am going to try a little more left field... |
Chad,
I'm pleading the ignorance is bliss plea for now regarding fuse replacement for the purpose of tweaking the sound.
When the time comes to replace a fuse, I will consider your recommendation. No doubt a good cleaning done right and a good quality replacement fuse can only ever help. I might be willing to drop $20-$30 bucks on a fuse at that time when there is a need, but as may know I can be notoriously cheap and stubborn sometimes, especially when there are still 2 kids to send to college. |
My true hope is that when I can forget what I know and replace that with whatever it is that Geof is going to teach me, I can get better sound for less via mind matter interaction rather than than my current cash/vendor approach. |
If you clean all your connector/connections with a chemical cleaner and then try the fuse are you hearing the effect of the fuse or the cleaning? Or both?
Research regarding cognitive processes is increasingly showing that facts don't matter. We interpret new data points based upon our preconceptions. So if you believe a tweak will work, it's more likely that it will "improve" your system. And vice versa. |
Mapman, get your thoughts together. Okay, now I'll read your responses. |
When I remove the ferrous metal cover of my ac mains box that resides within my listening room the audio playback is improved. When I put the cover back on the sound changes slightly for the worse and the stage shrinks. Tom |
Why don't you just get rid of your system altogether. Chad probably doesn't have one either, just the cables and tweaks. |
I replaced the ferrous plate in my head with one of brass and now everything sounds harmonius. This one tweak supercedes all other tweaks either singularly or in any collective random dis order. Anywhere I go there I am. Tom |
Cup your hands behind your ears when listening. BEst tweak ever! Guaranteed, no doubt. Cheap too! IS there something I can buy to reproduce that and still keep my hands free? Might be quantum even. Dunno... |
This thread is starting to become fun now. Lol!
Mapman I hear you. I do remember a few times at college when toast was a luxury. I had hoped never to go through that again!
Nothing wrong with being cheap. I guess the only worry is which college will they go to where the $20-$30 will be noticed?
Csontos, the tweaks phased all my equipment out into another dimension leaving only the cables. The cables do sound quite good on their own as long as I think they sound good and im wearing my quantum hat |
(Geoff' quote)"I'm talking about objects, images and information that change your sensory perception, as opposed to anything that has a DIRECT effect on the audio signal ANYWHERE in the system - the power provided at the wall, cables or electronics, or the acoustic waves in the room. You can't hear the sound you worked so hard to get, the sound that's actually there in the room, because your sensory perception is hurt by the objects, patterns, images, and information - books, CDs, DVDs, telephone books, etc. - in the room."
Sebrof asked,
"Geoff - How did you come to this realization, IOW why do you believe this is so?"
Experimentation, the foundation of scientific discovery. |
Mapman wrote,
"My true hope is that when I can forget what I know and replace that with whatever it is that Geof is going to teach me, I can get better sound for less via mind matter interaction rather than than my current cash/vendor approach."
Yeah, yeah... if a mind is too open the brain will just spill out onto the floor.
:-) |
Geoff Kait wrote,
" I'm talking about objects, images and information that change your sensory perception."
And Mapman responded with,
"You mean like you?"
Good one. You must have had your Wheaties this morning.
:-) |
My goodness! You must have been cupping your hands behind your ears. Seems Mapman is way ahead of you. |
My post about the ac mains cover plate was a serious one..always wanted one made entirely of brass. Just need to find a daring electrician.
Tom |
Since you are dealing with an electro-magnetic field, this may not solve the problem. Have you considered the possibility that the positive effect is being caused and not the negative one? In which case a glass cover (preferably pyrex) would serve you better. You just may have discovered a new tweak! Don't spill the beans.$$ |
So, tell me, anyone have any luck, Holographic Sound wise, using acoustic resonators? You know, Tchang tiny little bowl Acoustic Resonators, or his really tiny Sugar Cubes, Synergistic Research ARTS system, or the other newer copycat metal bowls from Holland. I suppose I'd include Schumann Frequency Generators, why not?, and maybe even the SteinMusic Harmonizer. Quartz stones from Acoustic Revive. There's also a large expensive bowl or bell that was reviewed recently that should probably be included, if for no other reason than to see the reaction, the name escapes me. How about tube traps? Beer Bottles?
Geoff Kait
Www.machinadynamica.com |
The uprights on my new elliptical training machine somewhat resembles a Shakti Hallograph. IT got me thinking if it might be affecting the sound. Too heavy to remove for a/b testing though, so I will simply ride the thing and live with whatever its effects may or may not be. If I like it, I may add a treadmill next. |
The thing is, with my OHM speakers in particular, you get a large holographic sound stage wall to wall out of the box with most any decent placement. The location can be tweaked significantly then to optimize the focus. Then there are 4 3-way level adkustments on each speaker that provides 1000's of potentially different sounds/tweaks from there. Add the right amp, a decent pre-amp and the right ICs and you are pretty much done. |
Geoff,
I tried the bowls. While they did do something it struck me as a very expensive way to get a little more sparkle in the treble and a slight change in soundstage.
I have the Schumann generator in the flavour of the RR77. It is a strange one. It can do things. But recently I noticed I doesn't do as much as it did.
It used to give me butterflies and a slight headache though. At best it cleans up the sound a little. Slightly wider soundstage if placed up high (2m) and centrally between the speakers.
Bass traps are very room dependent, but tighten bass and allow imaging to be clearer. Mixed with some diffusers can take you far. Further than those silly bowl resonators... |
Chad,
I know you to be very open minded!
If anyone can convince PettyOfficer to like computer audio, its you!
Now the ultimate challenge.....trying to get some useful information out of Geoff....
Do take note of GEoff's warning about your brains spilling out! I did find that useful!
O-O
\_/ |
09-27-12: Geoffkait
You can't hear the sound you worked so hard to get, the sound that's actually there in the room, because your sensory perception is hurt by the objects, patterns, images, and information - books, CDs, DVDs, telephone books, etc. - in the room. What you are hearing is a distorted, compressed, noisy facsimile of what is actually coming from the speakers. This idea is crazy. I mean that in a colloquial sense, and in a medical sense. In a colloquial sense, this strange idea is so far outside the scope of common sense and recognized scientific explanation that it is impossible to take seriously. In a medical sense, this strange idea could easily be considered delusional perception, i.e. the misattribution of a non-hallucinatory perception to objects or events to which they are utterly unrelated. The cause of this strange idea, and ones like it that appear on other threads, is a mystery. Bryon |
"In a medical sense, this strange idea could easily be considered delusional perception, i.e. the misattribution of a non-hallucinatory perception to objects or events to which they are utterly unrelated."
That's one explanation, but I do not think so.
Another is that GEoff really knows something that others do not.
ANother is that it is a form of obfuscation.
Maybe others.....
Only Geoff knows this for sure like so many other things apparently. |
Geoff is like the anti-Almarg (sorry to bring you into this Al). I'm not sure that is a good thing.
Al has deep technical knowledge in areas that are well documented and communicates clearly and consistently in a manner that I seem to understand. Also Al is not a vendor TTBOMK.
Geoff seems like a smart guy with some knowledge but I cannot seem to discern much useful from him. The explanations I read or hear from him make little sense. He insults and belittles me from time to time questioning my knowledge and calling me a neophobe and such but hey, that's OK, I have thick skin and have not always been nice to him or his products either. I would like to be able to understand what he is talking about before I discard what I already think I know as he suggests. I think that is a reasonable thing to ask. |
Bryoncunningham,
Well, to tell you the truth, I agree completely with your statement that "This idea is crazy."
Let's examine carefully Geoffkait's statement: "What you are hearing is a distorted, compressed, noisy facsimile of what is actually coming from the speakers."
Distorted by what?
Compressed by what?
A facsimile that comes from what source?
Geoffkait's statement is what I would call GOBBLEDYGOOK. Plain and simple. Nonsense talk. |
While we're on the subject of things that go bump in the night and ideas that might be construed as delusional, let me draw your attention to the Red X Coordinate Pen for a moment. This review of the Belt's Red X Coordinate Pen appeared in Positive Feedback. Enjoy!
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue1/beltpen.htm
In case you missed it, Cream Electret, another Beltian product based on the premise that our hearing acuity is degraded by certain objects, images and information/media, was reviewed recently in both Stereophile Magazine and Enjoy the Music.
Cheerio |
Ok.
There are some people who believe the heavens revolve around the earth. That's pretty obvious right? Just look at at the sun (with filters) or night sky....
YOu're still not helping me Geoff.... |
Mapman wrote,
"There are some people who believe the heavens revolve around the earth. That's pretty obvious right? Just look at at the sun (with filters) or night sky...."
At the center of almost every galaxy, including our own, there is an enormous Black Hole with the mass of a billion suns.
That's pretty obvious, right? |
Geoffkait,
Altering the sound on CDs with pens is well-known. And the fact that sound is altered by everything in the room is also well-known. But when we begin to indulge in the vague and mysterious for the sake of being vague and mysterious -- as though these factors supersede the obvious things in our audio systems -- then we begin to enter The Audio Twilight Zone. I think we have enough on our hands trying to figure out our components and cables and "tweaks" and room treatment. |
As an audiophile, I think if its a cheap tweak or a free one, out of interest surely it's worth 10mins of your time?
We could go to and fro arguing about the philosophy, the science or lack of science behind the tweak, but in the end it either works for you or it doesn't.
Otherwise it's a Mexican stand off. The stand off in my opinion is worthless posturing. Into the breach dear friends... It should be fun. Worst case just listen to some music and prepare harsh words for the vendor.
Something definitely happened with the PWBELT stuff I tried. I cannot explain it. But even if it was all in my head and friends head it was still good. As for the rest of them theres only one way to find out. |
I'm crawling back into my cozy neophobic hole now for a while...
I'm sure that black hole has some effect on my sound and there is nothing I can do about it...... |
Seriously though, the Mars rover sent back pics recently of what appear to be sedimentary rocks formed by liquid flow (likely water) on the surface of Mars. Now that really is big in terms of increasing probability of life on Mars in the past and outside of earth in general! Can't wait to learn what is discovered there next..... |
Sorry for getting off topic.
In the famous words of Arte Johnson: (this is all) "Very Interesting. But stupid!(?)" |
Mapman,
Our understanding of not only our solar system, but universe will be greatly changed and expanded upon with the amazing feet of landing curiosity on mars, and the amazing new telescopes being built.
Fascinating times. |
Mapman wrote,
"Seriously though, the Mars rover sent back pics recently of what appear to be sedimentary rocks formed by liquid flow (likely water) on the surface of Mars. Now that really is big in terms of increasing probability of life on Mars in the past and outside of earth in general! Can't wait to learn what is discovered there next....."
I don't see what all the excitement is about. I'm serious. Water on Mars, no water on Mars, what's the difference? Hard to get excited about the space program, if you ask me. But it did have its moments, I'll give it that much. Audio is much more fun anyway. AND way more mysterious than a bunch of rocks. lol |
"I don't see what all the excitement is about."
Here's what it is about.
1) Mars appears to have once had water flowing on it like earth
2) Water means chance that life existed on Mars once. Finding fossils in the sedimentary rocks would help confirm that.
3) If there was life on Mars once and had technology like ours, they could have visited Earth like we are visiting Mars now
4) If they visited Earth, its possible some life on earth originated on Mars
5) If the evolution of Mars is similar to Earth's, then Earth may be on its way to resembling Mars some day. What will become of us?
I think that is all fascinating at a minimum.
I doubt the sound of my stereo will be impacted in the short term though. |
Bryoncunningham and Douglas_schroeder,
You fellows seem rather level headed. Why don't we let everyone who wants to "step into the ring" at Barnum and Bailey enjoy themselves while the three of us and any others of like mind carry on a conversation among ourselves about holographic sound. Alternatively, the moderator might want to close the thread so the Barnum and Bailey show can look for another location to pitch their tent. Which would be just fine by me. LOL. |
Mapman, take a deep breath. People have been getting all worked up about the possibility of life on Mars for, what, 200 years? Not very much different than speculating about UFOs and the possibility of life on other worlds. For the most part it's the stuff dreams and science fiction (e.g., the recent movie Prometheus) are made of. Not that's there's anything wrong with dreams, or science fiction, or wondering where we came from or What it All Means. By most accounts, including NASA, Mars is simply too small to have much of an atmosphere of any kind, and the one it does have is primarily carbon dioxide. Mars has much more in common with our Moon than Earth. Not a very promising scenario IMO for supporting life other than perhaps bacteria. |
FWIW, Bryon, I agree wholeheartedly with your last post. Some of the stuff that is frequently posted here and in many other places is just plain crazy. Hope this comment doesn't get deleted, but it seems to me that the Audio Asylum does a better job of simply banning those type of folks that are just insulting and contribute nothing useful. |
Learsfool, I was wondering if you could answer a question for me. As a professional musician (French horn) in a major orchestra, do you think that sitting in the orchestra in close proximity to all of the other musicians night after night in any way damages your hearing? The reason I ask is I once visited another professional musician in a major orchestra (oboe) who happened to have one of the worst sounding systems I ever had the misfortune to hear. Thanks in advance. |
Its a funny thing about high end audio that the ine between useful information and nonsense can be so hard to determine. Its a fertile environment for obfuscation and other forms of malcreant behavior. Money talks... |
Learsfool,
I agree with you completely when you state "simply banning those type of folks that are just insulting and contribute nothing useful." It is odd that Audiogon often lets these "type of folks" dominate threads while others either back off or have their replies disallowed. |
Mapman,
When you mentioned "the line between useful information and nonsense", I think it is abundantly clear that there is no line here. This is pure unadulterated nonsense -- crazy talk for the sake of hearing its own voice -- as we see so many times on Audiogon forums. In fact, this is so predictable that it becomes supremely boring watching the same scenario play out time and time again here. So, if this is the way Audiogon wants it, let this thread be taken over by nonsense and let it die in nonsense talk, like so many other Audiogon threads have. I could not care less. |
Regarding mars, I was under the impression Europa was the more likely place to find life. It's a world (moon) of ice which is being pulled by gravitational forces large enough to create heat deep inside leaving liquid seas due to all the friction.
So it's a place with water and heat completely sealed in by a shell of ice. Sounds more promising than mars which probably didn't really have long enough as a fertile planet, with an atmosphere with running water to let complex life forms develope. But there is only one way to find out...
I think we are begining an understanding that life is more likely than unlikely.
Learsfool,
I think the best places to share ideas are places free of anyone deciding what can or cannot be said. As long as there is respect for others.
Who is to decide which ideas are good or bad or whose experiences are real or not? As I mentioned in an earlier post, unless you have tried it you have no opinion. Just ego.
I find it odd that many posts decend into arguments about equipment or even tweaks people have not heard or even tried.
The "fuse" debate and the "cable"debate are always full of it. So do we let the some just erase these posts all together? |
What we have here is failure to communicate. Do you not think I realize my statements are new and provocative? Do you think I have not seen the same knee jerk reactions many times in the past. Grown men who have been in this hobby develop their own belief systems based on what they experience and to a certain extent what they read. Obviously we do not all reach the conclusions about a variety of things, that's just how things are. The reason why there is such *polarization* on a number of subjects in this hobby, e.g., cables, fuses, directionality of wire, cryogenics as well as the ones related to Belt products, or my products for that matter, and mind matter interaction is most likely due to the simple fact that we believe what we chose to believe. In addition, there does seem to be a very strong resistance to any idea that is not "normal". It's ironic that the subject of this thread, Holographic Sound, is itself controversial. Hel-looo! Most people have never really heard Holographic Sound. Many people in the industry including some senior reviewers either minimize its importance or deny its existence.
Sabai, The Red X Coordinate Pen has no relation *whatsoever* to any pens used for CDs, green, black, whatever, that you might be familiar with. It is nothing so, uh, mundane. The Red X Pen is an demonstration of some of the concept I've been try to get across that seems to have fallen on deaf ears, or closed ears - that the sound you hear is easily influenced by phenomena that have nothing whatsoever to do with the power to the wall, the audio signal anywhere in system, or the acoustic waves in the room...or how you hook your cable together! You completely missed the point of my posting the review of the Red X Pen and its significance to this discussion. As I said, we believe what we chose to believe. Sabai, if you don't object too much to my saying so, it's ironic and bizarre that you would attack someone who is presenting unusual ideas when you, yourself, are presently unusual ideas. Cables in series, indeed. Hel-loooo! Lol
Cheers, everyone
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
We Do Artificial Atoms Right |
Sabai wrote,
"Let's examine carefully Geoffkait's statement: "What you are hearing is a distorted, compressed, noisy facsimile of what is actually coming from the speakers."
Distorted by what?
Compressed by what?
A facsimile that comes from what source?
Geoffkait's statement is what I would call GOBBLEDYGOOK. Plain and simple. Nonsense Talk."
Sabai, the reason the sound is (relatively) distorted and compressed and noisy is because of the influence of the immediate environment on your sense of hearing. Somewhat analogous to radio frequency interference affecting the performance of a sensitive receiver. But everything is relative so I can certainly understand your objection to someone saying the sound of your system is not all that you think it is. Let me give you some examples. If you remove all CDs from the room you should notice the sound improves quite a bit. That is because the CDs (media) themselves are bad for the sound. So are LPs, DVDs, cassettes. This is an example of how things in the immediate environment affect the sound you hear.
More examples: If you remove all *unused* components and speakers and cables from the room, if they are just lying around, you should notice that the sound gets a lot better. That's because those items are inherently bad for the sound. If you have any flowers or plants in the room, remove them and you will find the sound improves. If you have magazines and books In the room, take them out of the room. Same with all batteries. These are some common examples of what I'm referring to. There are many others.
Cheers |
Geoff
Most everything you mentioned are passive radiators that re transmit energy in the physical and acoustic environment. Nothing new to grasp there. When you remove a potted plant in clay or brass from a room and you say there is a net gain in perception , is that gain because the inorganic material or the organic material was removed from that area? Tom
|
09-29-12: Geoffkait
...the reason the sound is (relatively) distorted and compressed and noisy is because of the influence of the immediate environment on your sense of hearing. Somewhat analogous to radio frequency interference affecting the performance of a sensitive receiver. But everything is relative so I can certainly understand your objection to someone saying the sound of your system is not all that you think it is. Let me give you some examples. If you remove all CDs from the room you should notice the sound improves quite a bit. That is because the CDs (media) themselves are bad for the sound. So are LPs, DVDs, cassettes. This is an example of how things in the immediate environment affect the sound you hear. This isn't an explanation. It's merely a restatement of the same idea. You are a puzzle, Geoff. You are obviously intelligent, and you seem to understand how you are perceived. Yet you persist in being evasive when asked direct questions. It is partly for that reason that, in the past, I concluded that you don't really believe the things you say. But lately I've begun to doubt that conclusion. It's become increasingly clear to me that you may actually believe the things you say. But if you do, then why be evasive? Why not answer questions directly, thoroughly, and sincerely? IMO, that would silence a significant fraction of your detractors, including this one. Bryon |
Oh, brother... see what happens when I step away for a few moments! ;)
I looked back at the past few days and, Woa! What a turn of the topic! But that's not really surprising given the collective curiosity and intellectual force that is Audiogon! (I include myself in that, for better or worse) :)
I find myself in the incredible position of actually agreeing in part with Geoffkait, something I never thought would happen. Geoff is very level-headed when it comes to his analysis of the extremely low probability of life in space. I have been studying this topic for years and there is a vanishingly low, in other words, less than the Probability Bounds, chance of life forming at random in space.
Mapman, you enthused regarding the comment, "I don't see what all the excitement is about."
Here's what it is about.
1) Mars appears to have once had water flowing on it like earth
2) Water means chance that life existed on Mars once. Finding fossils in the sedimentary rocks would help confirm that.
3) If there was life on Mars once and had technology like ours, they could have visited Earth like we are visiting Mars now
4) If they visited Earth, its possible some life on earth originated on Mars
5) If the evolution of Mars is similar to Earth's, then Earth may be on its way to resembling Mars some day. What will become of us?
I think that is all fascinating at a minimum.
(end of Mapman's comments)
Sorry, but the number of physical criteria for life to have existed on Mars is so slim, so improbable that it's laughable. In short, Mapman, you are being sold a philosophical fairy tale. I strongly suggest you read the terrific work "Privileged Planet" or "Rare Earth", both of which show from a scientific set of data that life doesn't just pop up out there.
I'm sorry, but I would have an easier time handling Quantum audio products than I would aliens seeding the Earth via the ludicrous Directed Panspermia theory. And since I'm not into the Quantum products, you can bet I find no intellectual satisfaction with the "Aliens did it," argument for Evolution.
Just so we're not confused here, I'm not giving any kind of support or endorsement of Quantum Doodads or other Quasi-Tweaky devices. But I can't sit idly by while fantasizations of life Out There is tosse about while the hard evidence we have suggests otherwise. For every panetoid object which has one similarity to Earth it will have hundreds of dissimilarities. The books I mentioned previously show that even if all the potential "Earths" were found the odds are vastly against any of them having the right set of conditions for life as we know it.
Now, if it's a religious thing, to worship at the feet of science, hey, then let's call it what it is, but let's not call that science - unless science has become so unhinged from sensibility. :( |
Tom wrote,
"Most everything you mentioned are passive radiators that re transmit energy in the physical and acoustic environment. Nothing new to grasp there. When you remove a potted plant in clay or brass from a room and you say there is a net gain in perception , is that gain because the inorganic material or the organic material was removed from that area?"
Cables are passive radiators? Interesting. A preamp or amp is a passive radiator? A cassette or book or LP is a passive radiator? An unused speaker IS a passive radiator but that's not the characteristic that is germane to the mechanism I'm referring to. Any more than saying that a telephone in the room hurts the sound because the tiny speaker in the phone acts as a passive radiator.
I'm not really sure why the sound improves when taking plants or flowers out of the room, perhaps because we are inclined to "prefer" them in their natural state - in the ground. |
