Hi Geoff,
I have tried quite a few Belt products in the past. I must admit the strangest but most profound effects. I had much fun with various foils at the time.
The one that sticks in my mind most was a foil which I put on the ICs in my DAC at the time. I left the lid open so I could audition simply and find the best places for the foils.
The moment the foil touched the chip I felt something had changed. I went back to the hot seat and the music had become so clear and vivid compared to before the foil was added.
I have no idea how to explain what took place other than a profound sense of the music content. It was magical. Luckily for me a friend was over and he experienced it too, otherwise I would have booked myself into a mental asylum! |
Sabai,
I wonder how many life times it would take to experience every possibility?
That's why I said "simplicity in my experience..." In other words complex systems in my experience have not been so capable. But I am open to experiencing more. |
I have never heard the MBL speakers sound anything but defuse and phasey. Probably a room boundary issue.
A big magnepan would get you just as far if not further IMHO. The money you save could go towards SOTA amplification. |
Simplicity in my experience is the only way to get true organic and holographic sound.
It's about very short signal paths, single stage amps, little or no crossover, well damped components, and as few breaks in the signal path as possible.
Then you get to speaker placement and room correction. The foundation where the bass meets the midrange is very important.
The fine detail that enables the layering and depth of soundstage to come through are very delicate. Any fuzz or phase artefacts will kill those details and when that happens the holographic elements collapse into 2D flat presentation. |
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Dear Sabai,
We are all friends here. Don't get me wrong I enjoy tweaking too and have many tweaks in my system.
My tweaks include Hifi tuning fuses in all components, mains regeneration, anti vibration platforms, Acoustic revive RR77, audiophile wall sockets, AC inlets, plugs, power cords, ERS cloth, updated xover components, better quality passive componets in amps, contact cleaners, tube dampers, tube rolling, PW Belt foils, diffusers, cable elevators and so on.
So surely you can see I am with you? As I said I have had a fair amount of experience with tweaking.
If I miss quoted you you have misunderstood me. I find many tweaks have helped focus and refine the system performance, but the most worth while tweaks have been simple in signal path, or electrical supply mods. Of course you could go mad with more quantum this or that.
My point is its more fun (when basics are done) to find new music and spend there rather than listening to the same music 1000s of times but with yet another added tweak. The best tweak is new music IMHO rather than obsessing. |
Sabai,
Sometimes it's hard to get ones intent across clearly in these little posts. It seems you have a good balance of obsession/enjoyment to me. I'm glad we cleared that up! Or should I say I'm about the same? My system is pretty stable these days. I learned a lot experimenting and reached a good place.
I tried some ICs with bybees of some sort inside some years ago. But had nothing to compare it with. I.e the same cable without the bybee.
I wanted to try the quantum purifier bybees on each of the speaker driver terminals, but when I asked about it I was told they were not worth the effort by someone with the same speakers.
The manufacturer said they had not gotten great results or feedback from the very few who had tried it. So I shelved the idea. I didn't feel that $$$$ brave :-(
I had the impression that less sensitive/speakers that needed more current which gained more. I would give the WA chips a go sometime. |
Every time you guys argue my treble becomes a little better |
Sabai,
"The whole orchestra was in my room. I mean the concerts opened up with such expansive 3D imaging and sound stage that I could not believe it. Not to mention all the other parameters (detail/definition, tonality, dynamics, transparency, etc.) Not only did all the walls in my room disappear, it was as if I was actually at the concert"
This is exactly what I have found and have been almost surprised by. I am sure by doing the basics 1st, then tweaking to focus from there is how to achieve it.
Obviously the gear has to be able to perform at its optimum. The speakers need to be carefully placed. The power supply clean. The room reasonable.
As a single digital sourced guy I am sure the latest digital has come of age to allow through so much of the very delicate information that makes that soundstage possible. Im sure the analogue equipment too. As it passes through the equipment it's a delicate preservation game!
To me the various tweaks have pulled the overall details sharply into focus to allow that 3D holographic presentation. Some tweaks more than others but each playing its part.
I guess now we start discussing the more controversial quantum tweaks. I have experienced very strange effects with the few I have tried. PWB foils being the oddest. Whether they were working on me, the system or both!
All that to say I doubt you can reach that level of 3D performance without the tweaks. |
This thread is starting to become fun now. Lol!
Mapman I hear you. I do remember a few times at college when toast was a luxury. I had hoped never to go through that again!
Nothing wrong with being cheap. I guess the only worry is which college will they go to where the $20-$30 will be noticed?
Csontos, the tweaks phased all my equipment out into another dimension leaving only the cables. The cables do sound quite good on their own as long as I think they sound good and im wearing my quantum hat |
Hi Geoff,
Here we go then...
I have noticed you receiving a tough time in some discussions. You will find me open to experimentation. I am interested in the result.
Like many here I have a slight knowledge of quantum theories. I'm not sure how up to date I am, but most of my reading was done 8 years ago now I guess.
I know of most of the products you mention in your last post. I have not tried them...yet! As I mentioned earlier I am interested in trying the WA quantum chip.
My experience with the PWBELT foils was most strange and dare I say unnerving? The effect was like no other tweak experience I have had.
If I had to explain it, I would say the closest to a "normal" tweaking experience would be like replacing a poor capacitor with a much much better capacitor in an important place in the signal path.
Suddenly the music was more "there". With that extra detail or removal of grunge, came a sense of the meaning that wasn't there before. As if the musics expression was more obvious.
There was a law or diminishing returns though, as the 1st few pieces made a large difference while more after those initial ones did little or nothing.
I tried to theorise what could cause the effect. Maybe putting the foil on the DACs chips was damping them? Luckily I didn't need to explain it. I just enjoyed what it did.
Which one of the mentioned tweaks would you recommend 1st? |
Lol Geoff. ;-)
Well I shall start with the WA quantum chip and see where it leads...I'm in the mood for a new journey into sound.
I just hope I don't get pulled into another dimension without a means of return. I quite like it here. |
Mapman my old friend,
Why don't we have a tweaking session and report back. Choose a cheap tweak. I'm going to give that "chip" a try.
Did you ever try the Hifi tuning fuse in your ARC Pre?
If not I would highly recommend some deoxit and clean all the contacts with it, including inputs, outputs, tubes pins, and the fuse holder then try the dreaded fuse. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
I saw parts connexion have a sale on so you may save a few $.
I am going to try a little more left field... |
Geoff,
I tried the bowls. While they did do something it struck me as a very expensive way to get a little more sparkle in the treble and a slight change in soundstage.
I have the Schumann generator in the flavour of the RR77. It is a strange one. It can do things. But recently I noticed I doesn't do as much as it did.
It used to give me butterflies and a slight headache though. At best it cleans up the sound a little. Slightly wider soundstage if placed up high (2m) and centrally between the speakers.
Bass traps are very room dependent, but tighten bass and allow imaging to be clearer. Mixed with some diffusers can take you far. Further than those silly bowl resonators... |
As an audiophile, I think if its a cheap tweak or a free one, out of interest surely it's worth 10mins of your time?
We could go to and fro arguing about the philosophy, the science or lack of science behind the tweak, but in the end it either works for you or it doesn't.
Otherwise it's a Mexican stand off. The stand off in my opinion is worthless posturing. Into the breach dear friends... It should be fun. Worst case just listen to some music and prepare harsh words for the vendor.
Something definitely happened with the PWBELT stuff I tried. I cannot explain it. But even if it was all in my head and friends head it was still good. As for the rest of them theres only one way to find out. |
Mapman,
Our understanding of not only our solar system, but universe will be greatly changed and expanded upon with the amazing feet of landing curiosity on mars, and the amazing new telescopes being built.
Fascinating times. |
Regarding mars, I was under the impression Europa was the more likely place to find life. It's a world (moon) of ice which is being pulled by gravitational forces large enough to create heat deep inside leaving liquid seas due to all the friction.
So it's a place with water and heat completely sealed in by a shell of ice. Sounds more promising than mars which probably didn't really have long enough as a fertile planet, with an atmosphere with running water to let complex life forms develope. But there is only one way to find out...
I think we are begining an understanding that life is more likely than unlikely.
Learsfool,
I think the best places to share ideas are places free of anyone deciding what can or cannot be said. As long as there is respect for others.
Who is to decide which ideas are good or bad or whose experiences are real or not? As I mentioned in an earlier post, unless you have tried it you have no opinion. Just ego.
I find it odd that many posts decend into arguments about equipment or even tweaks people have not heard or even tried.
The "fuse" debate and the "cable"debate are always full of it. So do we let the some just erase these posts all together? |
I am amazed that people are so offended by Geoffs information or lack of it. I guess we all take comfort in the world we construct around us. So anything that threatens that view is upsetting.
I like to think I'm a reasonable, educated and logical guy. I 1st read about the x pen and those kind of very odd tweaks from PWBELT in the 1990s.
Like most of you reading this I thought it was nuts. But it seems unlike some of you, I tried a sample to decide for myself. If it didn't work send it back. So what was to lose apart from a little time tinkering with the Hifi?
As I mentioned in an above post I had something happen (using PWBELT foils). It was there and the others in the room experienced it too.
As to what happened and why? I cannot help you there. But as a professional who works in recording studios I can say hand on heart the music comming out of the speakers was changed, and for the better. The expression was more obvious.
I wish I could say nothing happened and it was a load of nonsense, but unfortunately and to my dismay something happened.
Lets face it, how could a sticky backed foil placed on a electrical circuit do anything?
Lets say it was all in my head and the couple of friends heads there too. So maybe just going through that process caused us to be effected by the music differently? If so it still worked! We should hand it out at gigs!lol
I'm sure there are many charlatans out there, but if they are offering the chance to try their "product" and return it, why not give it a go? It's all part of the hobby.
If that were the case these following posts would be way more interesting. Because now all we have is the end. Little has been learned or experienced. I thought the point of these forums was to share experience and ideas. |
Hi Theaudiotweak,
When I had a more complex system I played with various ways to drain vibration away or suspend from vibration. It became quite important once you tuned into it. I found it did clean things up slightly.
I found various materials contributed to the sound in differing ways. Some making it sound hard, some sluggish and so on.
It's funny that now my set up is more simplified I don't find it as susceptible to changes of platform or added weight, cones, wood, glass etc anymore. (I haven't had a TT since the early 90s.)
I think now the equipment is so simple that there is hardly anything in it left to vibrate.
Having said that my flea power tube amp is suspended by an air bed and the tubes are damped. The caps are mainly dulunde so are pretty immune to vibration. So there is still a legacy of that approach including potted inductors in the xovers.
Lets face it to get a holographic sound it is about attention to detail. Each small step adding up to a larger over all effect on the presentation. |
Hi Learsfool,
thanks for your reply. The rest of my post was just highlighting (and hopefully not boring everyone) the point that all it takes to clear the argument between ideas is give it a go. Not so much aimed at you, but just a general point.
I mentioned in a later post that if there is a money back trail period on a tweak, what is there to lose? Trying new ideas surely is part of the hobby?
Maybe the vendors of off the wall products should make it their duty to offer money back guarantees? Then the charlatans will be easily recognised. |
I had no idea holographic sound was so controversial. Obviously it is recording specific, but can anyone really doubt it's existence?
I have heard single microphones give the impression of depth! (Usually tube mics) Let alone multiple mics arranged to reproduce the stereo soundstage.
I may need to bow to others knowledge, but surely the delay between the microphones is what captures this. Even if this is faked using software at the mix stage of the process this can be quite convincing.
I do find that those spacial cues are the most delicate to capture and retain through the chain. Data compression like MP3s murder this information. But once heard cannot be denied. HD audio is the saviour for digiphiles looking for this. |
Sabai, forgive me for saying this but i feel you are over reacting to Geoff.
We are just chatting about holographic sound and possible ways to get holographic sound from a system. Even if some ideas are unorthodox. How can this desolve into a slagging match? Come on friends.
I have great respect for Mapman, Bryoncunningham and others here, but I do feel Geoff is getting some unfair treatment in this particular thread.
Did I miss something or is anger towards Geoff bleeding in from other discussions? My hope is we can get back on point. Lets be gentlemen. |
To me there is little more satisfying than a reach out and touch type presentation in your room.
I have some recordings (old sony classical recordings from the 1960s) that are just like being there. They are breath taking. This is what holographic sound is to me.
Every little step upgrading parts, cables, clean power, speaker placement, point to point wiring, fuses and so on enabled that presentation.
I hope not to start another argument, but I also feel tube power with all its faults is most capable of producing that kind of 3D soundstage. |
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I would also say that MIT cables seem to have a dimensional quality too.
I have only just tuned into MIT and so far they seem to be one of the better cables at depth that I have tried, while keep focus and detail.
Anyone tried other brands that do the same? Some of the higher Virtual Dynamics were not bad at this. |
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Csontos,
Measurable would be nice, but I am not sure which printed specs tell me about sound staging or image depth?
Demostratable can only be defined by the listener and this is where I suspect the trouble starts. I say x sounds better while you say x makes no difference (or measurable sense). Then Geoff pipes up! |
I have the RR77. I found it worked better on the plasma TV than the stereo. The TV seemed to have slightly richer color when the RR77 was on.
To me the effects wore off after some hours. This is another tweak which is marginal. |
Geoff,
I know what you mean. That ERS paper can sound really bad. Just the smallest amount can make things dull and lifeless. |
Geoff,
"Chadeffect - Wow, wow, wow! I LIKE those Trios."
So do I! Magnificent speakers. Thanks.
They are like the most dynamic ESL that's utterly focused and effortless.
The bonus being you can use any form of amplification too. SET,PP,SS,Class D,battery power etc etc are all good.
It only took me about 25 years to realise the path to audiophile bliss...lol |
Csontos,
I know some would challenge you and say that most SS amps are incapable of producing that 3D sound.
For me personally 3D or holographic sound has usually come from tubes. I know of few SS amps that can have that density and image depth. The SS ones i do know of are mind bogglingly expensive. (Solution, ML, edge)
Having said that I have heard many tube amps that were just plain rubbish at nearly everything...! I won't name and shame but some really highly thought of ones. Lets blame the tube choices.
As an audiophile you have to try other equipment in your system to find what works for you. then maybe you can see what is missing or can be refined. I think tweaking is a way of fine tuning a system to get that last bit of communication out. But if the equipment isn't capable, no amount of tweaking will help you. |
