What do you see as the downside of tubes?

Seriously Unsound, what the hell have you been smoking?? And no, I DON'T want any.

I was never more seriously involved with the music and this hobby until I started acquiring tube equipment. I don't see any downside at all. I personally would never consider the cost of tubes or biasing to be a downside. It's no different than performing maintenance on your automobile. Of course, this is just my opinion!

Unless you or your pets (or both) are having sex with the the amp, I wouldn't think burns would be an issue. No more than a hot stove and usually a warning will suffice there for those that don't know better (or they'll learn fast enough). Besides, most have covers or grills.

The majority of new tube amps should be reliable, but if replacing lightbulbs in your home is too much of a headache, then a tube amp may not be the answer.

I've owned both, to me my current tube amp sounds the best of any I've owned and it does great in home theater duty too.

Raquel's original comment had me somewhat baffled; the follow up post clarified things. A 4 ohm load is harder to drive and to do it properly does require more from an amp. That's not the case with a more efficient load. A properly matched system can work well with a "lesser" amp in a well matched system, though at some point a matter of "degrees" will creep into any discussion of audio equipment.

Unsound makes some interesting points. In my limited experience there's validity to them all, but, again, it comes down to matching equipment. But Unsound also makes the best argument of ALL for tubes, albeit indirectly. They keep life exciting! Taking my Seedwings Sensor (Google it) out most weekends isn't enough. I need the excitement of tubes, too! :-)

my twin boys grew up with big tube amps sitting on the floor, wide open without cage. no, they never got burn.

my friend puts it best. if you can train a tiger to perform in circus, you can train your kids not to touch the tubes.

The only time I had a tube amp damage a driver in loudspeakers was from a cheap poorly built dared amp that had parts shift in case work. Have had tubes fail never had 1 damage any amps or loudspeakers. Mostly you hear noise and slightly more distortion that lets you know its time to check or change out tubes. Realy not a issue. 300b available from $150 pair up. The mastersound can be retubed from about $250 up. I have had solid state amps damage loudspeakers when they have had problems this is not just a issue for tube amps.

Mapman; I have a b&k 747 tube tester and check tubes every 6 months. I think visual and audible changes are a indication as well to check tubes.
Also I kept a bias adjustment log when I had amps with manual bias adjustments; When bias starting to drift I would pay closer attention to that output tube.
I know many people will think this is extra work but I have several $$$ invested in my amps and pre amp and just want to keep them running at their very best;much like a person who maintains their car.

Rleff,

Thanks.

I know that it is possible for oneself to keep tube devices in proper working order.

Personally I just haven't done it for a while and never with an expensive hiogh end tube amp and was curious what tools and procedures people use with their high end amps these days.

Like most good things in life, there is some work and know-how involved to maintain anything that is worthwhile.

Not all who like good sound are cut out for this kind of thing though, so I just think people should be made aware of what goes into keeping a good tube amp in good working order, that's all.

Back when tubes were king, into the late 70's, people did it all the time.

Back in those days when I worked at Lafayette Radio and Radio Shack, there was a tube tester in each store, and we used to help people check their tubes as a regular service.

Replacement tubes were stocked in-store and sold regularly as were many common electronic parts.

I sold many a tube and don't recall exact tube prices, but I do not recall ever selling a tube that cost more than $15-20 back then.

Well, the more often I come back here the more I known that I'l stick with my original decision to get the 300B amp.

Tinkering with things I do like and biasing the tubes and keeping a log (thanks Rleff, I like that idea) is a good idea to keep track of things.

The speakers I have I did buy knowing they'd be a better match for a tube amp than other speakers (I shall not say good match as surely someone would say there are much better ones) and so I better get that tubeamp and find out about the "magic".

And now as I have a day off I shall go fishing :)

Most amps have safety measures in place if a tube goes bad (or is bad right out of the gate). I bought a Rogue Tempest II integrated back in February and apparently UPS dropped it while it was being shipped. Among other damage, one of the tubes was bad (Rogue tests everything before shipment). When I plugged the tube in after receiving the amp, I found out it was a "runaway" as the bias on the tube pinned the needle all the way to the right and the tube popped the corresponding fuse. So a popped fuse, a little bit of smoke, some cussing and that was it. No damage to the speakers, no damage to the amp (other than what UPS had done to it already, unfortunatley).

Rogue took the Tempest II back and instead I went with a Stereo 90 that they custom modded for me (which took another month of waiting to receive), but aside from the waiting I couldn't be happier.

Tube amps are not exactly hassle free, but they're typically not a pain in the #ss either, unless you end up with a bad apple (and what manufacturer doesn't have a dud every once in a while?).

Mapman-Lafayette Radio there's a store from the past;we had several in Buffalo,NY and I always like checking out their equipment.
Krauti- Glad you liked my bias log;helped me a lot;I never had a tube blast out a speaker driver when it failed and I believe 100% with Ralph from Atmasphere that design is key.
I am not familiar with the output tube you are asking about but there sure are lots of feedback on the thread you started.

another consideration is not finding the tubes to optimize the sound of your stereo system , when using the tube amp. there is no way to predict in advance what affect a tube will have on the sound of a stereo system. this can be frustrating, especially if you are dissatisfied with the sound of your stereo system.

And late at night I'm back to check on this thread :) Mrtennis, you have a point there. As tube amps allow us to roll the tubes and try different things it is hard to optimize the system as there is quite a choice of tubes out there.

The other side to that argument is that with SS amps I don't have have the freedom of simply purchasing a set of tubes to change something. I actually have to roll the amps so to speak to achieve the same result. Needless to say, some tubes will cost me the same as an amp and that need to be taken into consideration.

As this thread has been going on for a bit now I'm glad to say that my decision to go with tubes and namely the Mastersound 300B intergrated is unchanged.

Thanks for all the great input and I mean all of it. Yes, most everything can be measured, but at the end of the day it comes down to what we perceive as good sound.

I personally don't believe that one needs to spend $10000 to get a good tube amp. In fact I listened to the Mastersound Due Venti again today and the smile on my face was big. The price tag was way below above mentioned number and yet I smiled.

Bummer, maybe I have a problem by not being able to hear the $7000 difference. But hey, the good part is that I can buy a hearing aid to help me and have money left over for a better amp. Hmmmm, if only I had that $10000 :(

Thanks folks for making this a great thread, well, at least to me it was, or should I say is as I'm still right in it.

What are the downside of tubes?

I think the greatest downside is that some people simply expect too much from tube amps.

They want the tubes so they can experience a wonderful liquidity in the mid range - but then are annoyed at the lack of vice like control over the bass.

They want the tubes to experience a wonderful 3D vocal image - but then are annoyed that the soundstage does not extend up to a mile behind the front speaker plane.

They want the tubes so they can enjoy a wonderfully smooth and unfatiquing reproduction to the music but then are annoyed that some of the details are missing and resolution does not seem to be of the highest possible magnitude.

They want the tubes so they can tweak the sound by 'tube rolling' but then get annoyed that the price of some most desirable NOS tubes are going through the roof - and after the same tubes are fitted - they still have not achieved the musical 'shangri-la'.

The downside to tubes is not really the physical characteristic of the tubes themselves or when placed in a circuit what they contribute or do not contribute to the sound. Rather, the downside to tubes is the unrealistic expectations that some audiophiles continue to attribute to them.

Krauti- Here's an informative article that will give you some idea about the presentaions of various 300Bs: (http://www.stereophile.com/features/229/) Pay attention to the paragraphs concerning burning them in before critical listening. Many attempt to integrate tubes and their systems, without first doing sufficient homework. When the expectations aren't met; they get frustrated. What a surprise!! A well thought out, tube based system(that includes your acoustic environment) can bring you very close to the pleasures of live music. Here's a 300B that wasn't available when the above article was penned: (http://thetubestore.com/eat-300b.html)

Kiwi-I think I would have to disagree with your view on bass and I am wondering if you have any experience with
tubes more than just listening to a friends system or auditioning
My question is based on "control over bass".
I consider control over bass as being a accurate reproduction with all the related properties that go along with it;and a tube amp is certainly capable of doing this
at least in my system and experiences.
I don't consider this as a downside over tubes.

Krauti-I was wondering what is drawing you to this tube as I have never heard one.

What is drawing me to this tube is very much some reviews of the amplifier in question and the sound supposedly being this "the singer's in the room with you".

I have to admit that the little brother of that amp, the Due Venti, did a marvelous job in my opinion and I have asked myself if I should get that one as it's available right where I live and would even cost me $500 less, new warranty and everything whereas the 300B I'm interested isn't new. On the other hand at least judging by the reviews I prefer the sound of the 300B based amp over the Due Venti with it's EL34's.

Decisions, decisions :)

If the 300B

With tubes "these days" you never know how many hours your get out of tube before it goes bad....some can go bad with only a few hours on them! Solid State gear can be made to sound a lot better by putting hand weights on top of your gear and speakers...start by adding two twenty pound weights and (wait about a month and see if you like it). If you still don't like the sound just keep adding weights until you get the sound you like best.

Ah nuts, had I only tried putting a Mack truck on my old PS Audio amp before I got into tube amps, I would have saved a lot of pain and suffering from the hassle of tube amps.

I have read most of the posts and the down side has been covered very well. I have owned various high quality tube and SS amps and speaker matching is the key. I have heard your speakers with a quality 300B amp and it was magical. The only way you are really going to know about the downside of a tube amp is to buy it and decide for yourself. Yes those 300b's can be very expensive but they can also make a great heater in the winter.

my twin boys grew up with big tube amps sitting on the floor, wide open without cage. no, they never got burn.

my friend puts it best. if you can train a tiger to perform in circus, you can train your kids not to touch the tubes. 05-15-09:Semi

Obviously your boys are the exception rather than the norm. But for many of us taking the chance you took would be a bad idea.

I'd rather have a hot tube amp than a tiger. The thing with the tiger didn't go so well for Siegfried and Roy.

Well, think the thread has come to an end and I appreciate all the replies. Glad I didn't change my decision on the amp as an extra heater in the room isn't so bad. Being a mechanical engineer I might just need to design some contraption that channels the heat and put it to good use. Maybe a coated aluminum plate above the amp to fry eggs or so.

Krauti- It was a good thread;enjoy the new gear;fun wasn't it and don't forget to spray pam on the frying pan.

Rleff, thanks for the suggestion :) I might have to think about a drip can so I don't get burnt fat spots on the tubes.

Most lower watt SETs are not hot running. Room warmer far from it. Runs about as hot as any large class ab or class a SS amp.

you won't be going back to ss anytime soon imo...buy an amp that's fused so you don't have to send the unit out for repairs (or learn to solder) anytime you short a tube & keep a backup set of killer tubes around for those occasional hiccups...enjoy

buy an amp that's fused so you don't have to send the unit out for repairs (or learn to solder) anytime you short a tube

There is no guarantee that a fuse will go before a tube blows a resistor or fries a circuit-board trace. The ARC VT130 that I owned years ago and the CAT amps that I own now both have fuses but damage can be done long before the power line fuse ever knows there is a problem.

F1a, not smoking anything, must be the second hand smoke from fellow audiophiles burnt tubes. Seriously, as Fpeel noted, nothing I posted hasn't been reported before.

I have both types of amps in my living room. I find the biggest problem with my CJs are the fact that I can't leave them on 24/7 playing music like I do my solid state system.

Heat is another matter. In the winter time, there is enough heat that the furnace doesn't turn on. Which leaves the rest of the house cold since the thermostat is in the same room as the tube amps.

In the summer time, the AC runs all the time when they are on. So, in addition to spending extra electricity money to run the tube amps I also spend even more money to remove the heat from the room. So, in the summer I either don't use them or just turn the AC off. I live in the Bay Area in CA, so you have an idea of what I mean.

Yeah, I do have to replace tubes but that is less $$ than buying a phono cartridge and about equal to having my speakers surround replaced. Actually, now that I think about it, the cost is way less than the money I spent on CDs that I don't listen to because they are such bad recordings. I don't see cost as a big issue for the tubes.

But, heat and limited on time is a biggie. On the other hand, the sound is so much better than my Class D home theater system that it is worth it, really.

I have never owned any tube gear and I think I'll never will. Tube amps have to much much of a own sound signature. They may have sound beautiful and lush and warm. But when I play some ear bleeding trash metal I don't want a full bodied liquid warm sound. I want ear shattering screaming highs, window shattering lows. etc.

I know I am a bit over the top, but to my ears tube have a tendency to make music more listener friendly/warmer/more lush then the music really is. Maybe, just maybe a tube pre-amp would be acceptable but tubes to not belong in power amps.

Also tube gear of equal quality to ss gear is more expensive. You can buy a decent integrated ss amp for $1000 I don't know any decent tube integrated amp for $1000

sorry jafox, i should have been more specific...power tubes are fused & yes I've owned ARC where a shorted power tube took out a resistor. i can understand the CAT & ARC purist approach but not particularly user friendly imo.

Good NOS tubes are becoming scarce.

Mordante,

"Maybe, just maybe a tube pre-amp would be acceptable but tubes to not belong in power amps."

Given your musical tastes, to which I wander as well on occasion, I strongly recommend trying this approach based on my experiences in the land of tube audio gear thus far if you feel motivated to give some tube gear a try. You might also consider a tube DAC if digital is a main source for you.

Please dont buy a tube amp, thus leaving more tubes for me...seriously though if you havent experience a tube (anything) particularly an amp then get yourself down to your local Hi-Fi shop and listen. After this all should be clear. I have been building and buying tube amps for some 40 years now and have not experienced any major issues (in fact it was a large major manufacturers SS that took out a pair of speaks. I have no idea what "unsound" is on, clearly some bad experiences but not all of us have these. Buy from a good manufacturer sit back and listen and enjoy the MUSIC

I have a question for Spatialking now. What is the reason for the issue with you not being able to run the tube amp for 24h like you'd do with a SS amp? is it simply to get the most out of the lifetime of your tubes or some other reason.

As I don't think this has been mentioned before I'm quite interested to hear more about it.

Don't think the heat will be much of an issue as I don't listen all that much. It may become an issue though as we don't have central AC (just two of those AC cubes that go into the windows and neither one is where the amp will live and here in Grand Rapids/MI it does get rather humid and pretty warm in the summer. I'll find out either way.

Irrey, I'm not on anything! Perhaps you should reread the title of this thread. If you've truly been into tubes for as long as you claim, then you should be well aware that the issues I've pointed out have been pointed out by others for just as long.

If the amp has a standby selector/switch then 24/7 should not be a problem;I think it is more a personal choice.
I don't leave mine on 24/7 and they have a standby switch;I know inrush current flow and tube powering on and off can be a cause of early tube failure but I think it is more a design issue;if implemented well it should not be a issue.
I sure wouldn't mind if Ralph from Atmasphere stuck his head in on the 24/7 aspect just to hear a designer/manufacturers point of view.

Not good to run tube amps 24 hours. Unless you like replacing tubes. Most all tube amp warm up fast. Uli Many of these posts refer to large power tube amps these run very hot the se300b a SET amp does not it will not heat up room will not require extra AC.

I'm not really worried about the heat or power consumption anyway. The Electrocompaniets got warm but not too warm and I don't think the 300B's will be worse.

Maybe I give of some heat due to audio excitement but that's probably gonna be it.

Still surprised for how long this post has been going :)

Unsound must have been involved in an abusive tube amp relationship in his past.

The downsides can be dealt with. As is easy to see, many of us have determined that those hassles are easily worth bearing for the sake of the sound quality. Although there are excellent SS amps to be had, it really seems that tubes with good compatible speakers is the place to be.

I am not sure that Unsound is completely off. We all know that speaker/amp match is important. But can you find a set of speakers that meet the following:

1. flat impedance curve
2. larger woofers (> 11")
3. no built-in amps
4. plays down to 30Hz (-3dB)

"What do you see as the downside of tubes?"
I provided a list. That doesn't mean all tube users will experience all the items on the list. That doesn't mean that the upside might not outweight the downside. The question doesn't ask for a comparison with other technologies. To suggest that I'm smoking something, am on something, or that I have been traumatized by tube use is suggestive (at least to me) of defensive behaviour by those posters. Those who have read my past posts know that I strongly believe that in most cases speakers should suggest what might be the best amplifiers to use. I think that makes it pretty obvious that I also believe that tubes amps might be the best choice for some. I have even recommended some tube amplifiers for some users right here on Audiogon. That said, I stand by my original post as to what I see as the downside of tubes.

I'll nominate this series of posts as the frontrunner for the 2009 award for which thread has most outlived its usefulness. ;-)

05-22-09: Mlsstl
I'll nominate this series of posts as the frontrunner for the 2009 award for which thread has most outlived its usefulness. ;-)
Mlsstl (Reviews | Answers)

Totally disagree. To me, this has been a very useful thread, albeit taking on more of a life then the OP anticipated.

Ditto Tholt, I disagree with you too M1sst1. I've never owned a tube amp but have owned hybrid int's and tubed players. As one who has been sitting on the sidelines, I continue to consider trying tubes. This is the best thread I've seen to help "flesh out" the pros and cons of owning and using tubed electronics; very helpful and thought provoking analysis here.

I've got a tube amp and love it. It's not for everyone.

Question: how many times do the same advantages and disadvantages need to be repeated?

I have gone back and forth between tube and SS preamps, and cd players, even trying those known for "the closest to tube-like sound," such as Tom Evans Vibe/Pulse.
I now have tubes in each of my components, cd, preamp, and amps.
Three things clinched it for me:
First, I realized that for me, tubed gear simply conveys the emotion of recorded music in a way that I have not matched using SS equipment.
Second, I decided to quit obsessing about NOS tubes (and I have owned many). I determined the small loss (of whatever) to the sound quality that some perceive from using less expensive or new tubes is not worth the angst that comes from purchasing and maintaining high cost NOS tubes. I found a very good tube vendor (and a couple of good back-up vendors) and have purchased new or less expensive NOS tubes that do not break the bank. That way, if I want to leave equipment on all weekend, I am not concerned about tube life, etc. since I can replace each of my tubes relatively inexpensively. Another benefit is that new tubes are often quieter IME.
Third, and finally, I found my sweet spot using Lamm equipment with their fully tubed LL2 Deluxe preamp and their hybrid (one single tube per amp) class A M1.1 monos. The hybrid amps give me the power I need, and also the midrange richness and dimension tubes are known for.

I would say buy the tube amps, plan on using less expensive new tubes from a good vendor, and enjoy the music.