You may, just may, want to read the title of the thread you are posting in and consider whether your statement makes any sense at all? You have gone on and on about acoustics in a thread that is about cable direction,I apologize because you are right about that....But there is a link by the OP about hearing sound then.....By the way i approved your blindtest protocol in another thread.... I am not against blindtest i am against those who use it to harass any testimonies ....
What do we hear when we change the direction of a wire?
Douglas Self wrote a devastating article about audio anomalies back in 1988. With all the necessary knowledge and measuring tools, he did not detect any supposedly audible changes in the electrical signal. Self and his colleagues were sure that they had proved the absence of anomalies in audio, but over the past 30 years, audio anomalies have not disappeared anywhere, at the same time the authority of science in the field of audio has increasingly become questioned. It's hard to believe, but science still cannot clearly answer the question of what electricity is and what sound is! (see article by A.J.Essien).
For your information: to make sure that no potentially audible changes in the electrical signal occur when we apply any "audio magic" to our gear, no super equipment is needed. The smallest step-change in amplitude that can be detected by ear is about 0.3dB for a pure tone. In more realistic situations it is 0.5 to 1.0dB'". This is about a 10% change. (Harris J.D.). At medium volume, the voltage amplitude at the output of the amplifier is approximately 10 volts, which means that the smallest audible difference in sound will be noticeable when the output voltage changes to 1 volt. Such an error is impossible not to notice even using a conventional voltmeter, but Self and his colleagues performed much more accurate measurements, including ones made directly on the music signal using Baxandall subtraction technique - they found no error even at this highest level.
As a result, we are faced with an apparently unsolvable problem: those of us who do not hear the sound of wires, relying on the authority of scientists, claim that audio anomalies are BS. However, people who confidently perceive this component of sound are forced to make another, the only possible conclusion in this situation: the electrical and acoustic signals contain some additional signal(s) that are still unknown to science, and which we perceive with a certain sixth sense.
If there are no electrical changes in the signal, then there are no acoustic changes, respectively, hearing does not participate in the perception of anomalies. What other options can there be?
Regards.
For your information: to make sure that no potentially audible changes in the electrical signal occur when we apply any "audio magic" to our gear, no super equipment is needed. The smallest step-change in amplitude that can be detected by ear is about 0.3dB for a pure tone. In more realistic situations it is 0.5 to 1.0dB'". This is about a 10% change. (Harris J.D.). At medium volume, the voltage amplitude at the output of the amplifier is approximately 10 volts, which means that the smallest audible difference in sound will be noticeable when the output voltage changes to 1 volt. Such an error is impossible not to notice even using a conventional voltmeter, but Self and his colleagues performed much more accurate measurements, including ones made directly on the music signal using Baxandall subtraction technique - they found no error even at this highest level.
As a result, we are faced with an apparently unsolvable problem: those of us who do not hear the sound of wires, relying on the authority of scientists, claim that audio anomalies are BS. However, people who confidently perceive this component of sound are forced to make another, the only possible conclusion in this situation: the electrical and acoustic signals contain some additional signal(s) that are still unknown to science, and which we perceive with a certain sixth sense.
If there are no electrical changes in the signal, then there are no acoustic changes, respectively, hearing does not participate in the perception of anomalies. What other options can there be?
Regards.
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The smallest step-change in amplitude that can be detected by ear is about 0.3dB for a pure tone. In more realistic situations it is 0.5 to 1.0dB'". This is about a 10% change. (Harris J.D.). At medium volume, the voltage amplitude at the output of the amplifier is approximately 10 volts, which means that the smallest audible difference in sound will be noticeable when the output voltage changes to 1 volt. Such an error is impossible not to notice even using a conventional voltmeter, but Self and his colleagues performed much more accurate measurements, including ones made directly on the music signal using Baxandall subtraction technique - they found no error even at this highest level. The smallest step-change in amplitude, not power or average. Please read carefully. |
@cleeds, Your "simple test" is too simple and what you describe are not controlled conditions. For example, your test isn’t double-blind and doesn’t allow for quick switching, requirements that experts in the field (Johnson, Toole) insist are necessary. My “simple test” was not intended to be a full specification. I have a non-audiophile life, too. An obvious requirement is for there to be a controlled amount of time, the same whether switching or not, between rounds. Someone else can fill in all the missing bits. The point is that it would be fairly simple to do a test on the home ground/system of the person who claims to be able to hear the difference. Proper witnessing and test design would insure a satisfactory result. The person can either hear the difference with statistical accuracy without the benefit of knowing how the cables are hooked up or or they cannot. Proper witnessing removes the chance of fraud, and suitable repeatability is established. Finding a proponent and a detractor and a few witnesses who are all interested foremost in the truth (and who have the time to spare) is the challenge. I volunteer as a witness for any such test conducted in the Houston area, as I am qualified to be neither a proponent nor a detractor. |
dletch2 cleeds, Your post is insulting, dogmatic, and adds nothing to the discussion. It is nothing but a rant. Your constant insults to me and others with attempted insults like "measurementalist", "naysayer doctrine", etc. is tired, old, and useless. Your deflection to bring up measurements in attempted refutation of something that did not mention measurements is an exercise in personal futility. Do you have anything at all of value to add to this conversation?If you find my posts "insulting" kindly direct your dissatisfaction to the moderators. You’re not going to shut me up by shouting me down. Why do you feel the need to oppose blind testing.I do not oppose blind testing at all, and I noted so in the post to which you pretend offense. But - as I also noted - I have not adopted it as a religion or accepted it as my personal savior. I have almost certainly participated in more genuine, controlled, scientific blind audio tests than most on A’gon. That’s how I know blind tests have their place and their limitations. |
Your "simple test" is too simple and what you describe are not controlled conditions. For example, your test isn't double-blind and doesn't allow for quick switching, requirements that experts in the field (Johnson, Toole) insist are necessary. The experts do not require quick switching. There is no requirement for quick switching in testing. Quick switching is used because in every case, it has been more reliable in detecting small differences. The longer the switching time, the harder it is to detect changes. Double blind is preferred, but as someone has pointed out repeatedly, this is a hobby site, not a scientific journal. If a manufacturer makes a claim, I would expect double blind as that is a commercial claim. I would hope that my fellow audiophiles can be honest enough with themselves and us that single blind is sufficient. You quickly get to know who tells tall tales and who does not. |
@dulledge- "Anyone that knows anything about science knows that you could never assign a number like 96% to what remains a mystery as that would imply knowing exactly what we don't know." It would behoove you to keep up with science, if you intend to comment on the subject. https://science.time.com/2013/02/20/telescope-to-hunt-for-missing-96-of-the-universe/ Even Einstein realized there must be a huge amount of unseen/unknown matter and energy, when accounting for the gravity in our universe. His theories were published in the very early 20th Century. https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy
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linnvolk My “simple test” was not intended to be a full specification.Thank goodness! An obvious requirement is for there to be a controlled amount of time, the same whether switching or not, between rounds.I don’t think that’s an obvious requirement at all. Blind listening test subjects are usually allowed as much time as they need. There are very good reasons for that, by the way, but the real point is that conducting a scientifically valid listening test is a lot trickier than it looks to the casual observer who’s never undertaken such an exercise. |
I dont understand the concern of those like dletch2 for the rest of us deluded souls. I also dont understand why these folks think that the biases they suffer are endemic to the human race and also the apparent need to put all of us hobbyists in such a narrowly defined box. I dont think it is such a stretch to believe that through experience and exposure to exceptional systems that some can hear better than others. I remain confident in the buying decisions I make and the methodology I use to make these decisions. Anyway, as is usually the case, this thread is going nowhere. Oh I dont see any reason that a passive cable should experience any sort of directionality. But I truly dont know and I truly dont care. If the maker of a cable puts arrows on the cable I will abide. |
Blind listening test subjects are usually allowed as much time as they need.@cleeds, the listener can take all the time desired during the round. Requiring the same time between rounds is to make sure that the same time elapses between rounds whether switching cable directions or not. A counterexample is a recent(?) test that Rick Beato either performed or mentioned in which the respondents were to attempt to tell the difference between a "cd" quality and a "high-resolution" quality recording of the same music. Some of the respondents were clever enough to intentionally game the system by realizing that the larger files took longer to load. Even if not intentionally "cheating," the differing load times lent an unwanted bias to the test. (I think you probably understand all this and perhaps did not read my post carefully.) I concede that there are some details that would need to be attended to, but still maintain that a fairly simple test along the lines I described would be enlightening and perhaps conclusive. To reject the hypothesis that one cannot hear directionality, multiple persons who make the claim to be able to hear would have to be tested and found not to be able to make the right call a statistically significant amount of the time. However, if we can find one person who can consistently tell the difference, then I would say that that "proves" that some can hear the difference. (And I doubt that I would be one of those.) |
I also don't understand why these folks think that the biases they suffer are endemic to the human race Because they are. You may not understand this, but that does not make it any less true. Application specific knowledge reduces bias. The people who get the most abuse on these forums are those most immune to bias. This is not conjecture, but has been shown repeatedly in subjective testing fields. I have never avoiding blind testing, and because of that, I know, for fact, that audiophiles, just like everyone else are susceptible to bias, and expensive systems and listening experience appears do not inoculate a person from bias, no more than a sugar solution inoculates against a virus. Lifelong audiophiles with expensive systems are just as susceptible as anyone, and if they have convinced themselves of their infallibility, then they are even worse. I believe @Mijosytn in another thread pointed out that there is the ability, if desired, to train yourself to be better to pick up changes, but this is beyond the capabilities of most audiophiles as they cannot generate the controlled changes necessary, and as obvious in this thread, are unwilling to remove their eyes from the equation. |
Actually, to put it in simple words, direction of cables (speaker and interconnect) does not matter. By the way, it also sounds the same one way or another. I tried. In short, if you are so passionate about defending directionality of cables, go volunteer in local soup kitchen, read to disadvantaged children, or do something else valuable. "Grandpa, what are you proud of?" "I showed that guy on the Internet forum how ridiculous he was and that cable direction will give you blacker blacks." "I am proud of you grandpa. I want to be just like you." |
I remember reading in 1976 in French ,the first edition, the" fractal objects" of Mandelbrot and all the book was about measuring in a way... I guess once the world realized that YOU of all people had read, approved, and were moved by Mandelbrot that it was inevitable his book would become “legendary....a milestone in science.” A golden mind to go along with your golden system and golden ears. |
I guess once the world realized that YOU of all people had read, approved, and were moved by Mandelbrot that it was inevitable his book would become “legendary....a milestone in science.”Speaking of a book reading event in his own life does not means that the writer assume that it was himself that will create the legendary status of the book... If you interpret my sentence otherwise it is because your intent is to insult me... You are an idiot if you think so, and i am no more insulted thinking about that in the few instants necessary to write my answer here .... i feel only pity.... I own average ears, average system but very well controlled at low cost in his working dimensions, but compared to yourself probably i own a less average mind than your own....I prefer to not insult freely and without reason someone with whom i never had an interaction before... Thanks for exposing your "magnificent" soul..... And to say something positive here, i will add that i discovered the book only because i read an article of Mandelbrot about the modelization of errors on phone line in a book about epistemology few years before his publication of "fractal objects"... This book is a work of art and one of my favorite of all time.... His legendary status was inevitable and save in your insane mind has no relation with my reading.... The name of people who are able to invent a new Geometry are indeed very limited in the history of mankind... Mandelbrot is one of them.... Thanks for your post anyway, i loved the book so much, it is a new occasion to speak about it.... Thinking about it the book of Mandelbrot was for me like a book about number theory written by Lewis Carroll... There is very few PURE mathematical book in this century that reach in 2 or 3 years cult popular status reading level book sellers....Astounding book....Everyone reading this book has his mind changed forever....Think about that....And contrary to many pure mathematical books almost everyone can read it and understanding it.... I wish my post will make some curious about this eternal masterpiece of book.... It is a book about geometry, the way we see thing and place them in spatial dimensions and localize them... When we read it we discovered that we have never seen in the right perspective ANYTHING that we are contemplated before... Stupendous... The book contain a mathematical description of holes in swiss cheese and stars in the sky, relating them with the same dimensional numbers... Is it not astounding? |
Try this...Wow! thanks glupson... I will pray my wife to cook them.... ouffff i read it now..... Their taste does not decrease with days even after a week.... This will be my argument to sell the idea to my wife.... 😊 |
Their Earl Grey is a delight.I drink black tea to which i add a bit of orange marmelade... 😁😉😊 Yes back on topic... I apologize.... By the way the thin rope attaching the bag must be cutted because half of the time the twisting of the braids are in the wrong turn and the tea is bitter....No way to know for sure without measuring apparatus... We are on topic now my friend... We must pass a blindtest about that anyway.... Me i dont need being a "golden tongue".... I will not disclose the person name saying that compliment to me... «I am a gentleman or am I ?»- Groucho Marx 🤓 |
If you drink a lot of tea, treat yourself to a temperature controlled kettle, unless all you drink is black tea. If you like green, white, Oolong, I can’t recommend one enough.Very good advice.... I concur.... You are a master of many trades out of audio.... i was guessing this about you already.... 😊 |
Audio, tea, infused alcohols, and the perfect roasted marsh-mellow. You are in Canada mahgister? Treat yourself to this: https://www.amazon.ca/Pu-erh-Organic-Fermented-Chinese-3-53oz/dp/B07Y1R838W/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&... 190F, 90C to brew. I would recommend no sugar. If you are in the US, this one is good: https://www.amazon.com/Yunnan-Longrun-Pu-erh-Tea-Fermented/dp/B0063XG7JQ/ref=sr_1_37?dchild=1&ke... |
I will tread that for fresh cherries... But like in audio some slight difference in habit are a good thing for any exhange.... Perspective like portion of cake differ for each of us and even the taste, but the center of the pie is a common fixed point.... You are in Canada mahgister? Treat yourself to this: https://www.amazon.ca/Pu-erh-Organic-Fermented-Chinese-3-53oz/dp/B07Y1R838W/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&... Wow! what a wonderful gift.... thanks... Interesting by the way is this remark of a customer: " Only a teaspoonful of the broken up tea is needed for about half a litre." Then the 100 gram is a bargain for the price.... I imagine this god tea with the glupson almond cake recipe... I cannot think about a better duo indeed.... Yes i lived in quebec city.... |
I have a fairly inexpensive but sturdy Hamilton Beach that I have had for several years. I checked the temperature with my candy thermometer and it is accurate. It had one feature that was important to me. When you set it to a temperature other than boiling, it will hold the temperature for 30 minutes. I have a habit of turning on the kettle then forgetting. This gives me 30 minutes to remember. I would just pick whatever has the best ratings at Amazon and go with that. This one only has 6 settings which is probably enough, but it has good ratings. Some of them I noticed are prone to leaking. When I buy off Amazon, I sum up the 1, 2 and 3 star percentages and look for low numbers. I find this more important than the average. It avoids duds. https://www.amazon.com/Temperature-Brightown-Programmable-Automatic-Protection/dp/B07X5J7NRM/ref=sxi... https://www.amazon.com/HadinEEon-Variable-Temperature-Electric-Protection/dp/B07HT3FXCY/ref=sxin_11_... |
Tu as l' air de beaux esprit, mon ami! Merci très bien même... J’aime la complicité entre amis ici et j’écoute de la musique tout en lisant un article d’un auteur dont j’attend le livre demain, sur l’acoustique, qui me semble une révélation déjà... Merci pour ta sollicitude mon ami.... |
"When you set it to a temperature other than boiling..." Blasphemy! A kettle that actually boils? Proper tea-kettle is what holds water while fire is burning under it. Temperature is assessed by watching it get warmer. That fine art gets perfected over the years and becomes your second nature. At least it became my second nature. Which may tell a bit about my first nature. Yesterday, I saw a water bottle. One of those people carry around in fear of dying from thirst while walking around any city with two stores on each block. Rechargeable via micro-USB, two modes of operation (normal and adventure), ultraviolet-C light inside. Water bottle, as I said. "While you wait, give the bottle a gentle shake or do your best water dance to spread the purifying UV light evenly." I must be too traditional when I see it as a sign of decline of civilization. Buy The LARQ Bottle PureVis | LARQ (livelarq.com) |
I think we have some marmalade in the fridge. An experiment for tomorrow night.Beware about the quantity: almost nothing.... Dont blindfold yourself here.... 😊😊😊😊😊😊 I must be too traditional when I see it as a sign of decline of civilization.I guess we are around the same age....I see a decline too.....But i myself ascend, thanks to my next book.... |
Couldn’t understand why my Oolong tea at home never tasted as good as the restaurant. Then I discovered it was all about water temperature. Green, white and Oolong teas if they are brewed too hot taste bitter. At the right temperature, they lose the bitterness and you can brew several pots from the same tea leaves, with a slightly different taste for each pot. I used to backpack when I was younger. Now I just find that is work. A UVC water bottle would have been welcome back then. I would use filters and iodine. Not the tastiest stuff. |
When there is no friendship there is only waste of time.... Great thread here ! The difference of opinions about cable direction are no more an obstacle .... «When the pie portions are gone the center stay forever» - Groucho Marx Platonician meditation 🤓 «Tea is gone but kettle stay»-Chico Marx «Unlike sound, music has no prefered direction»- Harpo Marx «Wrong! melody is time itself» -Gummo Marx |
