It pays to keep an open mind, just not so open your brains fall out.very good! and funny....
Sagan
My brain fall out.... For sure....
My best to you....
What do we hear when we change the direction of a wire?
Douglas Self wrote a devastating article about audio anomalies back in 1988. With all the necessary knowledge and measuring tools, he did not detect any supposedly audible changes in the electrical signal. Self and his colleagues were sure that they had proved the absence of anomalies in audio, but over the past 30 years, audio anomalies have not disappeared anywhere, at the same time the authority of science in the field of audio has increasingly become questioned. It's hard to believe, but science still cannot clearly answer the question of what electricity is and what sound is! (see article by A.J.Essien).
For your information: to make sure that no potentially audible changes in the electrical signal occur when we apply any "audio magic" to our gear, no super equipment is needed. The smallest step-change in amplitude that can be detected by ear is about 0.3dB for a pure tone. In more realistic situations it is 0.5 to 1.0dB'". This is about a 10% change. (Harris J.D.). At medium volume, the voltage amplitude at the output of the amplifier is approximately 10 volts, which means that the smallest audible difference in sound will be noticeable when the output voltage changes to 1 volt. Such an error is impossible not to notice even using a conventional voltmeter, but Self and his colleagues performed much more accurate measurements, including ones made directly on the music signal using Baxandall subtraction technique - they found no error even at this highest level.
As a result, we are faced with an apparently unsolvable problem: those of us who do not hear the sound of wires, relying on the authority of scientists, claim that audio anomalies are BS. However, people who confidently perceive this component of sound are forced to make another, the only possible conclusion in this situation: the electrical and acoustic signals contain some additional signal(s) that are still unknown to science, and which we perceive with a certain sixth sense.
If there are no electrical changes in the signal, then there are no acoustic changes, respectively, hearing does not participate in the perception of anomalies. What other options can there be?
Regards.
For your information: to make sure that no potentially audible changes in the electrical signal occur when we apply any "audio magic" to our gear, no super equipment is needed. The smallest step-change in amplitude that can be detected by ear is about 0.3dB for a pure tone. In more realistic situations it is 0.5 to 1.0dB'". This is about a 10% change. (Harris J.D.). At medium volume, the voltage amplitude at the output of the amplifier is approximately 10 volts, which means that the smallest audible difference in sound will be noticeable when the output voltage changes to 1 volt. Such an error is impossible not to notice even using a conventional voltmeter, but Self and his colleagues performed much more accurate measurements, including ones made directly on the music signal using Baxandall subtraction technique - they found no error even at this highest level.
As a result, we are faced with an apparently unsolvable problem: those of us who do not hear the sound of wires, relying on the authority of scientists, claim that audio anomalies are BS. However, people who confidently perceive this component of sound are forced to make another, the only possible conclusion in this situation: the electrical and acoustic signals contain some additional signal(s) that are still unknown to science, and which we perceive with a certain sixth sense.
If there are no electrical changes in the signal, then there are no acoustic changes, respectively, hearing does not participate in the perception of anomalies. What other options can there be?
Regards.
798 responses Add your response
Maybe someone already explained this, but I simply didn’t have the time to look through the whole thread. Due to manufacturing tolerances, a cable isn’t electrically the same from both directions. They did. I don't think the question is about whether it has a directional component, but whether it would be remotely audible. It is not. The lengths of the cables in home audio are very short. Transmission line effects, even worse case don't come into play and would be similar enough to not create a difference. Add in impedance goes way up at audio frequencies. From a simple two port model, the differences, again, are so small, so not matter. Obviously we could make an intentionally directional cable. That would be a bad idea. |
Now we’re questioning the arrow of time ? It’s good to be skeptical and have an open mind, just remember what Carl Sagan said about open minds.Keep the open mind.... Sagan is not the definitive authority for time tough sorry... What he says by the way? remind me please.... About time read that C.K. Raju... http://ckraju.net/papers/ckr_pendu_1_paper.pdf Or Costa de beauregard if you read french....Oups! english translation... http://www.costa-de-beauregard.com/fr/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/OCB-1976-5.pdf Sagan is a vulgarisator on TV not on the same level than the three scientists i cited here... They speak from different perspective of the DIFFERENT manifestation of the flow of time.... There is even more recent works about that but i am too lazy to search for... By the way none question the arrow of time.... they investigate WHY there is one....And why there is more about time than the second law of thermodynamics... |
Maybe someone already explained this, but I simply didn’t have the time to look through the whole thread. Due to manufacturing tolerances, a cable isn’t electrically the same from both directions.Very astute remarks... In my precedent posts i insisted with Essien and Ansermet about the specific irreductible ability of perceptive consciousness versus measure technological pretense to explain the world of meaning and phenomenan ONLY by some chosen dimensions and parameters... Now i will add a more theoretical physical background inspired by the idea of a great Russian scientist who wrote about TIME and energy and the anisotropy of the cosmos... For Nokolai Kozyrev the DIRECTION in the universe between right and left and between cause to effect or between effect to cause are not EQUAL...and the diffreence is even measurable in his many experiments... Here is the link to the article... http://www.univer.omsk.su/omsk/Sci/Kozyrev/paper1a.txt He is not a crackpot either if you look to WIKI... I say that for the possible presence of a sunday "scientism" skeptic club member lost in this thread... Then if the direction between cause and effect or effect to cause are different qualitatively and quantitatively and even measurable for Kozyrev, perhaps the human ears can perceive some microscopic effect "percolating" through smaller scale to them...Even if our actual instrument dont measure them... Then wires can exhibit this difference in quality quantitatively between the origin and the end of a complete circuit .... It is a speculation from me with Kozyrev for sure but..... There is more under the sky than meet the ears or the microphone itself.... This does not preclude the necessity for a test of perception between cables or wire.... «Creating the cosmos is a only way for God to test his own hearing»-Groucho Marx 🤓 |
This is very strange to me. Are you applying to be invited to a measurement session? Self is an authoritative audio engineer, he wrote a detailed description of the experiments conducted, gave data from psychoacoustics, there are links, if you want, you can check everything. Isn't all this enough to be shure?Self said audible differences in the direction of wire is nonsense. If there were any measurable differences it was irrelevant. Since he is an authoritated audio engineer and I'm not I'll defer to his opinion. |
djones513,824 posts This is very strange to me. Are you applying to be invited to a measurement session? Self is an authoritative audio engineer, he wrote a detailed description of the experiments conducted, gave data from psychoacoustics, there are links, if you want, you can check everything. Isn't all this enough to be shure? The question is rhetorical, you don't have to answer. I want to thank you and apologize for bothering you so much. Regards |
Despite
not science still cannot clearly answer the question of what electricity is and what sound is (RE: "science still cannot clearly answer the question of what electricity is and what sound is!), I must point out that you must mean, "Science, as determined by the what we choose to measure and by what equipment is available to us, might not always correlate with sounds we perceive". |
There are two choices. The difference is audible. The difference is not audible. The only way to know is an unbiased listening testI agree. Absent a quantitative analytical procedure for testing audible directionality, then a well set up listening test with a substantial test group is necessary. I'm puzzled that, with all the energy, money and time put into the audio cable market, there is still not yet a substantial body of listening test evidence to glean even a consensus that wire or wire direction matters. There are a lot of tech people in the audiophile world. With the money being asked for cables, why isn't there a clearer consensus that it's worthwhile? Joe saying that his Kimber fat hosepipe costing $2000 a pair only work correctly in one direction isn't a reliable basis for the rest of us to make decisions. |
But still, most of the claims are made by very specific people, i.e. manufacturers, who claim the difference is obvious and significant. ...yet often don’t bother to tell you which is the right direction in the manual. Yes any sophisticated device that cost a lot of money can be expected to come with a manual that tells you how to properly use it. Mark the direction on the wire and reference it in the manual to leave no doubt. OR maybe they don’t really know either but say they do? That’s dishonest. Even for a wire. How can you trust a company that forgets to document such an important thing as the correct direction of their directional wire? Or worse yet outright lies to you? Much less pay them big bucks for it? Oh well its a free country. Do it if you must. |
I dont have an opinion about direction but the problem is way more deep than the skeptic would want to admit.... Or you are complicating a ham sandwich. There are two choices. The difference is audible. The difference is not audible. The only way to know is an unbiased listening test. No more. No less. If a person is making the claim the wire is directional, then you test that 1 person, with that 1 wire, and if they cannot tell the difference, then their claim is debunked. --- Don't be confused about what the claim actually is. They are not claiming that wires are directional. They are claiming that they can hear the difference in the direction of wires. --- We are not debunking the directional claim, we are debunking the claim they can hear a difference. If we do this test enough, then we can draw a statistical conclusion that they are not audibly directional, in all likelihood for anyone. However, by measuring the properties in both direction, we can make fairly accurate claims as well. If the difference is -120db below the signal in the audible frequency range, we can be confident it will not be heard. We could be confident at a much smaller difference. But still, most of the claims are made by very specific people, i.e. manufacturers, who claim the difference is obvious and significant. I don't remember ever hearing this before manufacturers started claiming it. So, given their extraordinary claims, we only need to debunk their ability to detect a change. Not everyone on the planet, only their claim, which is that they, as a company, can detect directionality. It is a well bounded case. |
Maybe someone already explained this, but I simply didn't have the time to look through the whole thread. Due to manufacturing tolerances, a cable isn't electrically the same from both directions. The reason is that a cable is a transmission line and can be viewed as a distributed network of resistors, R(z), capacitors, C(z) and inductors, L(z) (and other electrical components like memristors), and where 'z' is the cable position. But limiting the view to just R, C and L, it's not hard to see that since a cable is a mechanically constructed device with small variations/tolerances in wire thickness as well as small variations/tolerances in the separation of the two wires, that these variations will cause a z-dependent random change on the incremental value (ie, df(z)/dz) of R(z), C(z) and L(z). Because of this, when flipping the cable around, one will see a different distributed network, though not much different, but nevertheless different. So maybe those "directional" cables are known to exhibit a more significant electrical difference in one direction than in the other direction due to the manufacturing/design process of them and the manufacturer decided that one direction "sounds better" than the other and put an arrow on the cable? |
What do we hear when we change the direction of a wire? My first question in order to be able to anser tht one would be which wire specifically are we talking about? There are how many out there in the world, millions? THis thread could take a while. Narrowing down to one wire at a time would help. Make it one that not too many people have and the topic might actually reach some conclusion in our lifetimes. Carry on. I’ll be on some other thread that might actually add some value for someone’s hifi woes somewhere. Given that, my advice to resolve the world’s wire direction dilemma that the world now faces in amazingly just a few words (if one must) is: ...drum roll... there are only two ways max to connect most wires (sometimes only 1). Try them both and see. Or buy one with directions that tell you if you want to be sure you got it right. Then start a thread about it and please be specific. Then perhaps we can get somewhere. You are welcome... |
I’ll buy that but what does it have to do with wire direction? Staying on topic IS a virtue in debate.😊 i was answering your own post complimenting me thanking you and explaining why you think so about me loll .... I apologize for this post then also.... I will mute the 2 direction of my wired brain for now.... |
Maghister you are a major step up from geoffkait when it comes to going on and on about nebulous products and solutions.thanks for the appreciation... The reason is simple i sells nothing and my solutions cost nothing....But i must admit i appreciate excentric or unorthodox character ....Geoffkait included... This intellectual challenge: how to improve audio, is not interesting at all if we use money...Anybody can buy a costly amplifier and plug it with the "illusion" sometimes of hi-fi.... Using only brain, basic science only, and peanuts cost homemade device is my way.... |
I pity the fool who actually reads this entire thread thinking they will learn something about wire directionality.nobody can throw light in that in few post anywhere... Kudos to maghister though for throwing the intellectual kitchen sink at the problem though . At least there is some interesting things there.You are generous with me thanks....I speak too much but the subject interested me and not for audiophile reason at all.... I dont need cables....I dont but costly one .... I dont have an opinion about direction but the problem is way more deep than the skeptic would want to admit.... |
As an engineer I can tell you don’t always rely on instrument measurements to decipher human experience.That's right, and your statement illuminates the unreliability of human experience as a component of quantitative analysis. Thus the field of psychoacoustics. People hear things differently, but that phenomenon is only loosely related to the nature of the sound origination or propagation vehicle. |
I pity the fool who actually reads this entire thread thinking they will learn the answer on wire directionality. Kudos to maghister though for throwing the intellectual kitchen sink at the problem. At least there is some interesting topics there for inquiring minds interested in learning things even if they have nothing to do with establishing wire directions. Maghister you are a major step up from geoffkait when it comes to going on and on about nebulous products and solutions that only you can fully understand. Plus I am pretty sure you have nothing to sell and profit on as a result. |
Don't be fooled by a certain crowd who keeps insisting another crowd listens with instruments. That is just compensation for being unable to win an argument unfairly. There have been many correlations illustrated in audio between measurements and perception. There have been just as many illustrations for lack of correlation. This discussion is about neither, as is almost every discussion in this area. It is about audibility, something that requires no measurement, but does require bias free listening. |
One of the best examples of this fact is the taste perception of cilantro. A large portion of the population think it tastes vaguely like parsley, and another portion think it tastes like dish soap. All our senses work at different levels in different people. Its just an opinion, not an argument.Very good observation... But remember that pour sense are determined by our paricular history and biological and spiritual make -up... Has to do with our DNA. My wife is one who tastes soap, it isn't an opinion.Yes DNA and history.... |
The nervous system cover the entire body heart included...I don't really understand what you're saying. Love is an emotion which is strictly the province of the brain the heart has nothing to do with it. People who get heart transplants don't suddenly stop loving their family and start loving the donors family. |
This kind of reasoning is akin to "there are lights in the sky, so they must be visitors from another planet". The leap of reasoning from not being able to discern a difference to "some people must have a sixth sense" without considering the fact that peoples senses work differently is insane. One of the best examples of this fact is the taste perception of cilantro. A large portion of the population think it tastes vaguely like parsley, and another portion think it tastes like dish soap. All our senses work at different levels in different people. Its just an opinion, not an argument. |
No, you use an fMRI. Love is in the brain not the heartThe nervous system cover the entire body heart included... The heart and the brain are separated in space not in their working functions... they act together.... Speakers and room are separated in space (like the heart and brain are separated in the body) not for hearing... |
the concept of "accuracy" has 2 meanings at least:Clearly, regardless of the scientific advancement, our sensory systems are still better than the best instruments.No they are not. It’s not even debatable. Accuracy means exactitude by the numbers and when we speak of this "accuracy" we speak about a measure executed in SOME selected dimension with SOME selected parameters...NOT for all dimensions and ALL parameters... Accuracy means also the correlation and controls by human thinking process and perception above and around the selected dimension and the chosen parameters.... A microphone DO NOT replace human ears perception....It is a tool that complement it at best.... Then your affirmation is plain non sense or confusion between the 2 meanings of "accuracy".... Choose one.... |
There is a reason drug testing is done double blind, for some reason, I fail to understand, audiophiles can not seem to grasp this.The methodology for blind test is STATISTICAL... It work with big numbers like in drug testing not with few individuals tested... Second the borderline audible change may benefit for their attestation from a "small group" blindtest testing process but this process of testing in "one shot" cannot invalidate once and for all the non-existence of the effects because of this singular test conditions ... Bias are not always also something to be eliminated...A selection of trained subject is necessary...Then the test ask for the elimination of certain bias but the selection of some other bias called "abilities"... Blindtest is a complex matter and almost all people FAIL to understand what is at stake and how.... Then accusing audiophiles means something about you more than about the audiophiles by the way.... |
You mean Self could just wrote what came to his mind? Honestly, i don't figure it out, what are your doubts. You weren't in such a hesitancy when you speak about wire direction.Self wrote wire direction was nonsense . I don't doubt that. You said something about measurements. I haven't seen any measurements by Self so I can't comment on measurements I haven't seen. As long as cables are not manufactured to be directional, if we're talking about basic copper interconnects that don't have a lifted shield or speaker wires of stranded or solid copper then NO I do not believe they are directional. If anyone claims they hear a difference without using some kind of control for bias then to me it's a useless claim. |
Researchers making a profit from their work are not likely to share information until it has little remaining value. Sometimes information has strategic value to a government, in that case access is restricted. I refer to this as getting a visit from the "boys in black" should you step across the line. There is definitely considerable information related to sound and conduction that fall into that categoryVery good observation or experience... It is clear for all to see that there exist 2 kind of science: one open and retarded, the other linked to power and money in advance and not to be found in peer reviewed litterature... We live in 2 worlds.... One world is poor the other is not....No power reside in the first.... The survival of the world is related to the reunification of the world... |
I think that the challenges about wires posed to the tecnological tools by the hypothesis of Anton linked to the specifity and irreductibility of human perception in relation to the limits of the mesuring process when we encounter human consciousness is the TRUE matter of this discussion, not only the protocols of a blindtest for it.... It is the reason why i am interested in this thread... My 500 bucks audio syystem is complete, no upgrades are necessary, and with my mechanical equalizer working optimally for my ears, any cables upgrade, even positive, at costly price is not in my purchasing view... There is a qualitative treshold in sound experience pleasure... I reach it...And i listen music not sound difference, my hooby is not changing the gear to distract my boredom like some reviewer advocate... Then it is the correspondence between this human consciousness of the sound and the presence and interruption or potential replacement by the most powerful technologies which interested me... The only growing religion in the world now is a form of transhumanism for which there is no more place for the uniqueness of the consciousness and his irreductibility to matter and technology.... Then awake yourself to the true subject here and spare us the bad jokea about cables... By the way i dont have a postive or negative opinion about cable direction "per se"... We need test and even blindtest here if you ever need.... And also more than that we need thinking and this was my point... |
Fellow audiophiles, Mr. Ted Denney (Synergistic research) is only looking after his wallet, when he says that cables have directionality. He calls himself "lead designer", I can understand lead designers for amps, preamps, speakers, DACs, but cables?? Synergistic research, and all other cable purveyors, simply buy bulk spools of cabe, cut it to various lengths, and terminate it, where is the "designing" in that? Dear Mr. Denney, here is the challenge, if cables are truly directional, and, as you claim, you can hear the difference, then, you should have no trouble picking out systems where the wire is directionally "correct" and where it is "incorrect". You should be able to pick out the correctly wired system 100% of the time, since, as you claim, the differences are obvious. Go ahead, take up the challenge, let's see how you do! Enough, with the nonsense, if you can not hear something, BLINDFOLDED, it does NOT exist. What you THINK you hear, is simply the placebo effect and conformational bias. There is a reason drug testing is done double blind, for some reason, I fail to understand, audiophiles can not seem to grasp this. Let's all wait and see what Mr Denny's response is. |
I have spent decades of my life in research labs. Part of my work includes sound and conduction. Companies protect proprietary information. The general public (and in some cases even researchers) is always years if not decades behind in the understanding of a technology at the forefront. Researchers making a profit from their work are not likely to share information until it has little remaining value. Sometimes information has strategic value to a government, in that case access is restricted. I refer to this as getting a visit from the "boys in black" should you step across the line. There is definitely considerable information related to sound and conduction that fall into that category. |
djones513,820 posts You mean Self could just wrote what came to his mind? Honestly, i don't figure it out, what are your doubts. You weren't in such a hesitancy when you speak about wire direction. |
The first couple of pages of this wore me out. Trying to use incomplete science to explain differences we hear on our sound systems. Clearly, regardless of the scientific advancement, our sensory systems are still better than the best instruments. Embrace the wonderful reality. If you can't hear it, good for you. You'll save some money. For the rest of us it's "My ears, My money". Enjoy the journey. |
@joysjane The problem of anomalies arises only when some artificial equipment becomes an intermediary in the our perception of information about a living object or whatever it is that we consider the subject of art. NASA doesn't fit that description, so I agree with you. |
I use Russ Andrews/Kimber 8TC speaker cable for my L,C,Rs. Expensive. I use cheap Fisual cable for my surrounds. I recently bought a 200 ft spool of 14 gauge wire for UK £20. I experimented and have tried it with my main speakers. There is absolutely no difference in sound from cables costing hundreds of £. |