What country still has music?

We're at that weird crossover point between centuries. To make an analogy to the 20th it's James Reese Europe time. We haven't got past late 19th century brass band/ragtime. Stravinsky & Jazz & the "new" that will replace the tired 19th century conventions are still a few years out. So if you think you're hating this early 21st century, last gasp of rap-rock-dance 20th century pop culture idioms just wait. You'll probably dislike the 21st century evolution even more

Oh yeah, the minute I heard Bacharach I went off Bach for a year. It is a matter of taste of course, good taste and bad taste.

Some of the best modern tunes ever done were pop. Remember Burt Bacharach, Dion Warwick,LULU, Jackie Dushannon to name a few? Scores of others without whom it would have been an entirely different landscape. No where near as fun.

" but there is ZERO dicernable talent involved in pop music"

musical talent need only be solid and not outstanding to be successful in pop music. There are other kinds of talents involved as well that go into making someone appealing to the masses, which is what pop culture is all about, along with the $$$s that go along with it.

Hmm, something to tenacity perhaps, but there is ZERO dicernable talent involved in pop music.

"The fact that you might not have the tenacity, balls, talent or will power has nothing to do with it. "

That's usually what it takes!

I'm sure there are plenty of legends in their living rooms. Everybody seemingly has a pat excuse for why they're not rich and famous. The fact that you might not have the tenacity, balls, talent or will power has nothing to do with it. If the world would just beat a path to your front door, then you'd show 'em.

There are probaly 50K bands as good as any other in USA and space for say 30-40 in industry, any moron can ,and do, make a "hit", whether anybody ever hears it is either sheer luck or having connections.

Duanegoosen, at least you admit that it could be hard. Some people insists that it's so simple.

The please tell us what you've come up with that sold for large sums of money and was used in hit records argument is weak and Palinesque, (as in Sarah).
Coming up w/ a hit record can be easy or very hard... skill and knowledge are often poor predictors of financial or artistic success.

Onhwy61, No matter how many beats I've come up with. I don't have any connections and sponsors for show-biz which is the main reason to get through.

Some of the best artists out there didn't have formal training, but I was referring to current production which might as well be what the OP has stated. I guess I was simply in agreement/but not.

If it's so simple to programs some beats, then please tell us what beats you've come up with, sold for large sums of money and have been used in hit records. According to you it ain't even hard work!

It clearly doesn't matter. Do you think you'd be listening to better music if it did?

A dude walks in Manhattan looking for Carnegie Hall and asks first stranger "How Do I get to the Carnegie Hall?" A stranger, who turned out to be a musician answers "Practice".

Orpheus, since I believe that Santana knows a-bit about C# or E-flat scales, It's a music.

Yes you can also start playing musical instrument without knowing the music bases, but to advance, you'd better get on to the books and teachers to preserve and prosper your talent. At least many even garage rock musicians went through the advanced music training just like Paul McCartney with Ravi Shankar. The rock musicians who could handle instrument with virtuoso reefs were often more known and popular vs. thouse who was soft and mainstream as an example.

Contrary to my statements above,

Why waste time and Why work hard when you can simply program some beat, copy a couple of notes onto the WAV file, connect it to the PA system and talk 'snit' to the microphone in front of retarded due to our financially depleted educational system urban crowd?

No need to practice. No need to advace...

Should this REALLY should dominate top 20???
Should there at least be some common sense?

Acman3, you speak a great deal of wisdom. My local college has a jazz studies program that has been rated #1 in US several times by Downbeat magazine.The talent of these young musicans is amazing, the few concerts I've been to were outstanding.
If I were younger, I'd pay more attention to jazz but as a classical fan I've yet to probe all there is to Bach, Mozart, Schubert et al. If only I had another 60 years of serious listening !

A lot of good jazz out there. A lot of great musicians who are not popular because they don't sound like the "Giants" we grew up with. The music scene will be very good once the large group of boomers, which I am part of, are gone, and they stop dictating what is good music. People will be saying, where was I while Mathew Shipp was playing in his prime, and who is this William Parker. The young players I hear on my local college station, KNTU, are good to exceptional.

Support local young musicians, and let them grow into the next Giants! Don't blow them off because they might use sounds and styles from their generations.

Schubert:
I purchased my first real audio system from the audio club in Weisbaden. Sansui,PE,Wharfedale. You were surrounded by great audio clubs. Mainz and Rhein-Main etc.. I was stationed in Hanau and had to travel to see all the audio goodies.
Cheers

Rok, yes it was, even better in Weisbaden where I was.
Some music appeals to the mind and soul, some to regions bit further down the torso.

"At this moment I'm listening to "Santana". Am I listening to music?"

Absolutely!! (sorry shakey, I just can't help it.)

Santana will always have a special place with me. Reminds me of the good times at places like the MEXICANA bar in Frankfurt, Germany, back in the late 60's. Those were the days, great music, great women, great cars, great era.
Cheers

Okay. But in keeping with what I perceive the OP's topic is, there comes a point where all variations, melodies, and especially harmonies according to what actually works, have been explored. After which "only" dissonance remains,not to be confused with Jazz. That, or what we're subjected to of late, straight monotones of higher and lower sequences or non-melodic ones. The stuff that was tossed over the shoulder hopefully into the trash when the real stuff was being written.

All of them I think.

There's lots of interesting stuff out there now. I don't know if there is a Bach or a Mozart toiling away outside the top 20, but if there is, he can get to us via the internet now if the big production houses turn him away.

With the availability and expansion of internet radio, I'm listening to Paris radio stations, Argentinian radio stations, you name it. The other night I parked on a Bosnian station for hours. Just folk music, but I was absolutely captivated by it. The time just flew by. I never could have done that with this kind of fidelity just 10 years ago.

Beyond that, I'm finding old ditties that my grandfather used to sing like The Night Pat Murphy Died. I didn't find that being sung in the background in a Ken Burns period piece on PBS, I found that on ITunes of all places! Unbelievable.

I do agree that the Beyonce type media constructions are forgettable. They could be CGI for all we know. The performances of those stars remind me of workout shows.
Britney Spears. Remember her? You couldn't get away from her name, it was EVERYWHERE, but I couldn't remember a damn thing she sang, nor could I recognize her voice from any of a dozen others on the radio at the time.

But that's all top 20 stuff. Those lists are ruled by kids. Kids have entertainment money to burn. Their taste is rebellious and loud and centered around sex. That's fun as hell when you are 16. Nothing wrong with it. We used to crank Metallica and Molly Hatchet. Our elders looked at our leather jackets and long hair and musical taste and called us thugs and losers. Metallica has stuck around and I cut my hair and got a real job, but I last saw Molly Hatchet playing to a small throng of 40-something people in mullets and acid washed jeans at a local fair. Dreams I'll Never See came to mind, but was not on the playlist.

Richard has a good point. We sound like old people. My grandparents thought Buddy Holly was a cute kid, but not very talented. They were used to big band guys and personalities like Louis Prima and Satchmo. Coming from that, I could see them questioning the spare, seemingly simple work of Holly. My dad thought 70s music was awful. All of it. No melody worth remembering and mostly noise. He once did some telephone work for "some scruffy looking guy named Dy-lan in Woodstock." He didn't even recognize the name! Now, he listens to the Eagles as if for the first time. "Where were these guys?" he asks. "Geez, EVERYWHERE" I reply. I forget that he was working overtime then and the little that could make it into his consciousness at the time all probably sounded the same. Everytime he turned on the radio he probably heard Blowin' in the Wind, More Than A Feeling or Afternoon Delight.

In modern pop I find interesting people. The Carolina Chocolate Drops are incorporating old folk - hornpipe and reel type stuff - in their music along with modern rhythms and instruments, just create music; Mumford and Sons is acoustic and about as far as you can get from the top 20 sound, but they've created a popular following with their intensity; Zac Brown is fun country music, but it sticks to you and their enthusiasm is infectious; Adele put an adjustment on the expectations of what you can do with popular music with the album 21. I didn't bother to sample it for quite a while because I thought she was just another marketing creation. Whoops.

And I'm not even mentioning virtuosos and artists in Jazz, Blues and instrumental genres. Or discoveries, like Susan Boyle, who may not be an artist, but who serves to remind everyone that talent isn't restricted to those who look like Beyonce and the internet age can find you an audience that 20 years ago would have been off limits.

I love the age we're in. The best of the past is available in a variety of formats and current music from all over the world is more discoverable than ever.

All countries still have music, and just like this country, each individual defines what's music to them.

At this moment I'm listening to "Santana". Am I listening to music?

At one time what we call 'classical' music was the 'popular' music. It's now called classical because it has stood the test of time. That is the ultimate measure of any music, does it last! A good thing to look for is, what music do they use in the movies to represent a certain time or era. Not perfect, but a pretty good indicator of which music had the greatest resonance in society doing any given time.

European Classical music is not superior to all other forms of music. A lot of it is awesome, and almost as much is boring.(sleep inducing) One man's opinion. And since music is not a natural phenomenon, but man-made, then man can judge.
The GREAT music can / does jump across cultures and societies.
Cheers

Some might make the argument that no music since is the equal of Bach's.
I think there is some validity to that argument.

If you widen your definition of what constitutes music to infinity, then of course it's going to continually be recognized as such but you'll be desperately searching for ways to ascribe it as a pleasing experience. U2 was on the envelope from the start imo. I do like a few of their tunes. Sweetest Thing is my fav. Best selling artist lists have nothing to do with this issue. Even if you like it, that doesn't necessarily make it music

When you look backwards you selectively limit your view to the best music of an era, whereas the music of today benefits from no such filter and of course seems worse in comparison. An interesting take on this effect are the Owen Wilson and Marion Cotilliard characters in the film "Midnight In Paris".

Here's a listing of best selling artist by decade. Basically, from from the 1980s onward Madonna and U2 rule. Click on the links at the top of the page and you can narrow your data to specific years.

As far as I can tell there was always good music and really bad music popular in any selected year.

Schubert, Csontos, Stevecham, we could be neighbors and co-exist intellectually!

Stevecham, well and truly said.
However , the fact remains that Mr.Townshend hath not 1/1000 the talent of J.S. Bach.

Actually, it's all garbage. Gotta seriously disagree with you on this one, Mapman. Early rock was melodic. Imo, if not for the long hair, the older generations would have embraced it. Fact is, the majority did later on join the crowd. Those who say they like rap as well as those who say they like current original music seem to be constantly reconciling it's so-called attributes. The vast majority being young people exploited by big business cashing in on typical growing pains. Remember back in the seventies when the beginning of the end was starting to be forecast? Music is actually finite. At least anything worthwhile. Been there, done that.

Stevecham, thanks for telling it like it really is.

I'm not an old fart by a long shot, it's just some of this stuff is pure garbage.

Beyonce? Superbowl? Utterly forgettable events.

If you want good, current music, you have to work a bit to find it, but it's out there. The most talented and creative artists are NOT going to be front and center on prime time. This is the zeitgiest of the 21st century.

As one example, if I had only my Pete Townshend and Who recordings from now until the end, I would die a happy man. Pete has more musical talent in his little toe than all the Britknees, Lohanables, Beyoncas and Aguilerianas combined.

Schubert you have a point there.

I'm a fan of the philosophy of yin and yang though. Gotta deal with both the dark and light sides of life to get by.

02-07-13: Actusreus
Sorry, Tpreaves, but not when it comes to what sells and charts these days. I share Marakentz' sentiment. I believe there is such a thing as objectively horrendous crap.

It doesn't matter what sells or charts, people like what they like.

Mapman, since Mozart brings the peace of God, it is a given it won't arouse the hostility in your soul like Ac/Dc, one of Satans fav groups.

Big E, in MANY places the local symphony is out, or about to go out- of biz. Around here, the St Paul CO, a world class ensemble ,is disbanding and the MN SO is close to it.

Just watched a piece on the BBC about an Afghan Youth Orchestra touring the USA. They played at Lincoln center. Very poignant to see young people, esp the girls, risk their lives to play and listen to music. No music lovers among the taliban!! Puts all our musical / gear differences of opinion in proper context. We in this country enjoy an embarrassment of riches when it comes to the arts. As well as other freedom.
Cheers

Map,
You should have worked that youngster over at the tune of .........
Stravinsky's "Rite Of Spring" on the account of your "Rite Of Better Taste". HA

Scientific Proof Beiber Sucks! (and the majority of todays Pop Music);

http://www.webpronews.com/science-finally-proves-that-justin-bieber-sucks-really-pop-music-in-general-2012-07

Next time I go into the boxing room to work the heavy bag, I think I will play some Mozart and see if that can get me going like some good AC/DC.

oops, Mahavishnu .... (sorry John)

Rod Stewart and Queen Latifa now have Jazz Standard albums out.
(I am not a fan of)
John "Mahivishna" Mclaughlin has been doing Classical albums for a while.
(big fan of).
Bruce "Stringbean" Springsteen is working on a Pagliacci album??

I used to be angry, but no one seemed to notice or care. Talk about being dissed!!!
Cheers

Everyone has a chip on their shoulder I suppose.

Its big business!

Most learn to deal with it better with age, but I suspect even then it is always there, pretty much without exception.

Well, while the country was hung on 'angry white males', we tended to ignore that there might be other angry folks out there. With even more reason to be angry. If you listen to rap you will have to conclude that SOMEBODY is pissed!! BTW, I think young caucasian males could be the major consumers of Rap.
Cheers

"There's no artistic ability with gangbanging and cop killing plus having it crammed down our throats in TV commercials, advertisements, sports events and radio stations. Rock music never did this..."

No but the point is the parents of teh rock generation felt pretty much the same way about rock music as oldsters today tend to about current pop culture. Pop culture is for youths, not for old farts.

Somehow I survived the rock era. There were just as many bad influences to overcome back then as today I would say. The big difference is these days with internet, social media and such, everyone is probably more aware than ever of what those unlike them are doing. I think that is probably a good development compared to the past where it was much easier to live in the dark ages.

I was in the gym the other day working out in the boxing room. There was one other much younger fellow (caucasian) in there. HE had some RAP/Hip Hop music playing over the sound system off his IPOD as he was working the heavy bag. Seemed like a nice kid, but the lyrical content of what he was playing was way out there. I do not offend easily and have heard a lot of similar music, but this set a new milestone for crudeness by far over most anything else I have ever heard. I suspect only a select few young or old, could listen to that and not react negatively. It was the lyrical equivalent of a raw porn movie set to music and I am not exaggerating! How popular will that be in another 10 years? I'm sure something even more out there will take its place.

There's no artistic ability with gangbanging and cop killing plus having it
crammed down our throats in TV commercials, advertisements, sports
events and radio stations.
Rock music never did this, and I don't meds or a nap.

"R U surprised that we now live in a world of less than mediocrity.."

The world on average is mediocre pretty much by definition.

Luckily, there are still plenty of exceptions to keep things moving forward.

Learn to ignore the mass media and much of what politicians and corporations say for mass consumption and find your own sources of whatever turns you on. That's the key.

Not Really surprised Schubert, as It's been quite a while already.