What component is responsible for dynamics ?

Bradluke0,
What you describe in your post(Onemug also in an earlier post) is exactly my experience.
I once only had audio systems that were based on higher power amps and moderate efficiency speakers Once introduced to low power amps(high quality) and higher efficient speakers, wow! lower noise floor, much better dynamics(micro and macro) superior inner detail and nuance preservation.

The bigger realization however was the increase in realism and overall naturalness(less hifi character).
It was quite an eye opener I`ll tell you.But as unsound says, to each their own.
Best Regards,

Bradluke0, interesting comments. The 89dB/160 watt combo has a significantly greater max acoustic output than the other combo, but if you listen below 99dB it won't enter into the equation.

Hi unsound,

You seem to be fixated on volume & square wave. I have had many an electrostat & planar. Quads,Apogees,ML, Magnepans & I loved them.

I can assure you that either you have been very unlucky with the horns you have heard, or you are sensitive to something I am less sensitive to. (I had your speaker some years ago too)

I would be glad to play my AG horns for you. The points you mention above I am sure will evaporate away. All you will have is a profound sense of life size, solid musicians playing in front of you, and the most powerful of emotional reactions caused by an organic musical event. I have yet to find another way of reproducing that.

I have come close in few systems over the years, with planars & powerful monoblock amps, but they were monochrome by comparison. The ML CLS2z driven by ARC ref monos was up there, as was a modded MG 3.6r on the same amps, but the Trio has layerng & purity beyond them(partly due to flea power amps). The word is palpable. The stuff you seemed concerned with as a whole are meaningless IMHO or maybe dealt with somehow. Having said all that I have also heard the AG Trio sound terrible too! System & set up are everything...

Chadeffect, square waves aren't the end all, but certainly are an insight into fidelity. We wouldn't accept the inability of an amplifier to produce a square wave, why would it be any different for a speaker. Some traditional dynamic, electrostatic and even true Walsh omnis speakers can do it, but I've yet hear of a high efficiency speaker that's capable of it. Seems to me that in the effort to gain high efficiency, sacrifices have been made.
I think we sometimes have different priorities, which explains the different audio systems. I would choose correct time, waveform fidelity and lack of coloration over the ability to produce volume levels well over 100 DB for my home. To each his own.

Hi all ! IMHO the speakers for sure , I just went from a 90db speaker with 160 wpc to a 98 db speaker with 4 wpc . The 4 wpc setup blows away the 160 wpc setup as far as dynamics go . Also , we talk about efficiency...what about sensitivity ? (not the same thing ) And no , the noise floor did not increase ...quite the contrary .

Hi unsound,

You must have listened to some really old crap if you feel noise is an issue with high sensitivity.

I have tried numerous bits of kit on my 110db speakers & I have never heard a modern amp or whatever create any noise.

Funny you should mention phase as I am experimenting with something shortly. But I have had phase coherent speakers it's not that big a deal compared to the other gains IMHO.

If you really think horns are just some kind of PA used for filling large spaces, I guess some are & some are not. Mine can go loud but they have crushed everything else for inner detail, transparecy, involvement, dynamic freedom etc. No coloration & über speed. Electrostatic like but on steroids.

I have used just about every type of speaker design type & loved a few. But when I found spherical horns I was done. It had the best compromise.

Square wave is bogus & doesn't exist in music. But if it matters to you we can discuss it in another thread.

Chadeffect, with a lower sensitivity speaker you will end up with less noise at lower volume levels, and a much better chance at having a true time and phase coherent sound. I am still waiting for a high sensitivity speaker that can demonstrate the ability to pass anything resembling a square wave. The only thing a high sensitivity speaker does better is providing more ultimate volume in larger spaces with less power. Not something that most residential users tend to need concern themselves with.

charlesdad1,

I understand.

If we are going down this road & i am forced to say something then high sensitivity speakers, probably horn loaded (over 100db/w), with the appropriate amp. Probably a 0 feedback amp with low damping factor is the easiest way & probably the answer the OP is after.

Massive power amps with low sensitivity speakers is a massive no no. I tried it for years...Won't end up with open free dynamics that way.

They all contribute to different extents case by case. It depends on the specific system.

The component used with the worst dynamic range is teh bottleneck and is responsible for whatever dynamics you hear or not. Improve that piece with one that does dynamics better and your dynamics should improve the most.

In most cases, it might be either speaker, amp, pre-amp or source that is the bottleneck. With digital sources, nowadays I think most decent digital sources are less likely than the others to be the bottleneck. I think the same is true in general regarding ICs and speaker wires. With most decent ones, these are less likely to be the bottleneck in most cases.

Also, its not just the individual pieces but how they interface together in terms of impedance that also matters for best dynamics. Higher ratios of device input impedance to output impedance of the device feeding it will help assure that dynamics are retained at each step in the component chain.

A common mistake that often results in bad dynamics is using a high output impedance tube pre-amp with a lwoer input impedance SS amp not designed to work well with a tube pre-amp. or similarly, a tube output source device like a DAC used with a pre-amp with lower input impedance. Both together would be a double whammy in terms of dynamics. However, a combo like this might sound very good in other ways, ie not fatiguing, smooth, involving, etc.

Another is having small or underbuilt speakers that cannot handle dynamics sufficiently,

A third is having an amp that is underpowered or not capable of driving a good pair of speakers properly to to their maximum potential.

I couldn't agree more!:-)

Hi,
Unsound that`s perfectly fine. We`re clearly on opposite ends of the spectrum and won`t agree on this issue. I`ve found an apporoach that works better for me. You have also found what suits you best.
We`re both quite pleased with our systems and that`s all that matters.
Take Care,
Charles

Charles1dad, It would appear to me that high efficiency speakers are often more huge in comparison to low efficiency speakers, than mega watt amplifiers are huge in comparison to low watt amplifiers.
It appears as though, very often high efficiency speakers cost more and offer less extended frequency response than comparably priced low efficiency speakers. Furthermore, it appears to me that many systems that use high efficiency speakers use amplifiers that have lower watt output, but those amplifiers often actually cost more at purchase and there after. All in all, IMHO, high efficiency speaker systems appear to offer less value. As such, I disagree with your assertion that "...high efficiency speakers would be a very good and logical place to start,...).

Chad,
Actually many posts do agree that all components matter. If someone was putting together a new system, high efficiency speakers would just be a very good and logical place to start, that`s all. This would avoid the mandatory need for a huge mega watt amplifier as a prerequisite to obtain dynamics.
Best Regards,

Tbg,

That's because the answer is all of it. Each part in the chain
contributes to the sound. Or in this case the dynamics.

It is a silly question that's why so many silly answers/non answers.

So as is typical on such posts, the answer is everything and nothing.

Comparing a small monitor to larger box floor standing speakers misses the point entirely.
Charls

Face, Whats say your monitors are 4ohm and your floorstanders 8ohm the monitor is 92db 1 watt your floorstander is 89db 1 watt. There will be little difference in volume levels.Also one manufacturer could have estimated specs or rounded up or down etc. Now if your floorstanders are 89db 8 ohm and you compare to a 110db 16 ohm horn think you will find your increased dynamic range.

Having tried a few different speakers of different efficiencies in my rig over the last few days, I don't believe speaker efficiency has a direct correlation with perceived dynamics.

The two pairs of monitors I tried are a few dB more efficient than my reference towers and they appeared to lack in dynamics, I believe the lack of LF extension is directly responsible for this, although driver size could also be a factor. The towers are tuned to 20hz, meanwhile the monitors are tuned to 40hz and 55hz. The speakers contained a 10" woofer, 2 6.5" woofers, and a 5.25" woofer respectively.

Hi Face,
My believe as always been do what works best for you and meets your objectives,Having had much experience and exposure to both approaches, personally the high efficient speaker with lower power amplifier has been much more realistic and satisfying(not really close).

But that`s me, your experiences are different and I can certainly appreciate that. What ever road gets you there, follow it.
Best Regards,

One of the fundamental advantages of high efficiency is it allows low level detail and microdynamic ebb and flow to be appreciated at low and modest listening levels.
There is less need to"crank it up" in order for the sound to come "alive".

This is why the higher the efficieny becomes the need for a quiet well built amp with a very low noise floor is required. These types of speaker will reveal any noise, even at quite low sound levels. The advantage is uncovering more of music`s nuance and subtle -micro inflections.

Yes, Unsound, your last post doesn't make alot of sense to me, either. High efficiency speakers, especially horns but also other types, are well known for very high quality at the very softest dynamics. This is one huge reason why so many professionals prefer them. I have never found noise floor to be higher in high efficiency speakers, quite the opposite in fact.

Watts are cheap, high powered SS amps with medium efficiency full range speakers can produce impressive dynamics.

High efficiency speakers will raise the noise floor, same with cheap tube equipment.

Without a very large enclosure, high efficiency speakers will lack low end due to Hoffman's Iron Law.

Bookshelf or limited LF speakers lack the necessary low end impact needed.

Unsound I must say that has`nt been the case for me, but to each their own. What ever works best then go for it.

The more sensitive the speaker the more likely the noise floor will be higher, and the softer end of the dynamic scale will more likely to be negatively affected.

Raya,
You state a very rational explanation for the obvious advantage for high efficiency speakers. This also has been my own experience.
Best Regards,

This same characteristic applies to speakers. Hence the more effecient your speaker are, the louder you can drive the max spl without compression.

you have ASSUMED too much in your statement that the amp driving the inefficient speaker does not have the current drive capability & dynamic headroom to drive that particular inefficient speaker. That is NOT always the case - there are plenty of well-made amps that have sufficient prowess to drive inefficient speakers. They might not fit your budget (or that of most people) but that's another matter.

This is also the reason that speakers with large and many drivers can give you great dynamics in a good size room.

Again, you've assumed too much by giving a lot of speaker manuf undue credit by assuming that they know how to design a multi-driver speaker. Most do not! The audio landscape & used market is full of multi-driver loudspeakers that sound blah...
There are some multidriver loudspeakers that fit your statement but it usually the exception.....

To emphasize my point. Listen to some great source music through good headphones and you will here the full dynamic range of an orchestra as rendered by the source recording. Ultra low background noise allows you to hear the softest passages and their nuance. Since the driver is so close to the ear canal, loud passages are rendered with full dynamics and no compression. No change in Cd player will render different overall dynamics (unless that player is purposefully compressing dynamics, ipods do this).

Now, take the headphones off and increase the volume level so that you can hear the music at conversational levels with the headphones 3 ft away. The overall sound will be high pitched and AM radio sounding. Why? The sound is being compressed by the physical limitation of the drivers in the headphones. All the music, loud as well as soft passages are being played at or near the maximum spl of the headphone. This same characteristic applies to speakers. Hence the more effecient your speaker are, the louder you can drive the max spl without compression. This is also the reason that speakers with large and many drivers can give you great dynamics in a good size room. Little bookshelf speakers (without a sub) cannot, but will, if played at moderate to low volume levels.

I side with Raya… Listen to the Reference Recordings Dick Hyman “From the Age of Swing” CD and you’ll understand why I say that.

Speakers,Preamp,Amp. HELLO!!

Which part of the body is most responsible for dynamics?
We all know the answer, don't we?
It's brain of course.

What component is responsible for dynamics ?
If one is looking to increase the dynamics of their system , what one component will offer the most beneficial change ?
Saki70

Saki70, you will find your answer once you answer this question (in return): which part of your body is responsible for your good health? I.E. if you were looking to improve upon your health, which organ or part of your body would you concentrate on to get yourself in (even) better health?

Without a doubt, the LP or CD recording engineer. I have not read all the responses but dynamics are determined by the source material one is listening to. That said, on the component side, speakers and amplifier determine the systems ability to reproduce great dynamics. Keep in mind that any system regardless of price can actually produce the full dynamics of the recording as long as the loudest passages are at volume levels under the maximum spl for the system as a whole.

In other words, if I am playing a Telarc CD with difference of 50 db between its lowest and loudest passage, and I set my volume level to produce about 100db on its loudest passage(which is not very loud), when the orchestra crescendo's between that soft to loud passage most systems will accurately render this. Compression of dynamics starts to occur when you near the physical limitation of the drivers.

Where a great system comes into play is producing substantially louder passages, say at 110db or even 120db, without compressing the music. This limitation is driven by the efficency of the speaker, the size of the speaker, and the amps power. That's why a small speaker, like a totem dreamcatcher, with a 4.5" woofer is limiting. Its maximum spl might only be 102db (100db without compression) which puts the floor of some orchestral passages below the ambient room db level (due to a/c units, heating ducts etc).

Unfortunately for most audiophiles, many modern recordings are now compressing music and placing all instruments and vocals at loud levels due to the prolific use of personal music systems like ipods and automobile listening. This is to compensate for high background noise levels from road noise or public spaces.

Saki70, The Prologue II is a nice amp but not known for its dynamics, IMO. Experimenting with tubes might get you closer to where you would like.

Agree w/"Onhwy". For better dynamic capability in loudspeakers, driver Sd does matter. Such drivers tend to be of higher sensitivity and have (paradoxically)relatively shorter Xmax. At equal loudness they generally sound more open. For home audio many are be found in 2 way designs with a compression driver on top (just one example is http://lsv-achenbach.de/kits/tricolore.htm).

Individual components won't guarantee proper dynamics in a system. In order to preserve the dynamics in a recording it is essential to have a system with suitable gain structure between components. If you can't turn your volume control past the 9 o'clock position without your system getting too loud, then your gain structure is off. Similar mismatches can occur between the preamp/amp or amp/speaker. It's not as if there are perfect interfaces between components, but there are wrong ones and those will degrade your system's dynamic performance.

Regarding loudspeaker, I don't think that higher efficiency is what makes some speakers sound more dynamic, instead I think it's related to larger driver area and the amount of air that is excited. It's my observation that loudspeakers with twin 15" drivers have greater dynamic capabilities than a loudspeaker with a single 6" cone. The reasons why are obvious and if you wanted to reduce it to a simple statement -- small speakers won't sound as dynamic as larger speakers, assuming appropriate caveats.

Sure : Reference 3A Di Capo i speakers
Primaluna Prologue II integrated amp
Granite 657 CDP

I am in a small 10ft. X 11ft. room with wall to wall carpet and 8ft. ceilings . I use some room treatments , 8th Nerve , consisting of pads in the corners and above the speakers where the walls meet the ceiling . I have the speakers and listening position set up on the diagonal with the listening position and speaker seperation set in an equal lateral triangle of 6ft . The speakers are firing staight forward , no toe in .
I play the CDP through the tube side using the stock tube.
The amp has had the tubes rolled to EH EL34's on the output and Mullard 12AX7 & Radiotechnique 12AU7 on the input . I am using a M. Wolffe Source P/C and ZSquared au/au IC's .

Hope it helps.

Saki70, You’ve put your question to the forum in a general way and received a lot of interesting answers, but I’m wondering if you are also trying to find the dynamically weak link in your system. If so, Sidssp is correct; we need to know more about your system. And then, there might actually be one identifiable component.

Going back to what Jafox said, after your speakers, I've never heard gear provide dynamics in the way the CAT gear does, now I had the preamp/amp so I don't know which was responsible, or more so, but I would describe dynamics as the special quality of CAT gear, matched by few.

Not sure what speakers you have, but if they have a sloped baffle make sure that they are properly levelled so the rake of the baffle is optimally aligned, as intended by the designer. (Speaking from personal experience, this improved dynamics for me.) Also try more severe toe-in as well.

It's the musicians.

Listen to Takacs or Emerson String Quartets, and you will see what I mean.

High efficiency horns are indeed the easy key to dynamics, but you are right - many cats in the game. I have highly inefficient Apogees and they are the most dynamic speaker I ever owned (I never owned horns though) - paired with the right amp I should add.

Onemug,that`s a good example.This is what I meant by more spontaneous and instantaneous with music`s ebb and flow, much better dynamic contrast.

"what one component will offer the most beneficial change ?" I'd say the speaker.

From my empirical knowledge:

Doing the math, I used to think that a 10 watt amp mated with 100 db speakers would produce the same dynamics as a 100 watt amp with 90 db speaker. I mean, it's math. 2 + 3 is the same as 9 - 4. Didn't work out that way to my ears.

I had 1000 watt monoblocks driving my Maggie 3.6's (85 db). In the same room during the same time period, I had 10 SET watts driving some custom studio monitors (low 90's). No contest. The 10 wpc/90+ db was more dynamic than the 1000 wpc/85 db.

I suppose it depends on your "strict" definition of dynamics. The 1000/85 could play louder, that's what 1000 watts can do. Dynamics to me mean how fast a speaker can go from, say, 60 to 85 db. To me, a higher eff speaker does it better than a lower one.

If your looking for dynamics a compression driven horn loudspeaker will do it the more horn loaded the better. But for many they are to large or costly.PA,vintage or used can save you with cost. The macro dynamic has more to do system synergy. And over all quality of the whole.

Increasing music dynamic is like increasing the acceleration of a car. There are two ways to achieve the objective. Lessen the weight of the car (high efficient speakers) or increase the horsepower (amplification chain). An example of a very dynamic car would be a F1 car. A Nascar is less dynamic than a F1 but both have similar top end speed (max spl), but very different performance.

Duke,
I agree with your answer based on my own numerous experiences.
Higher efficiency speakers do provide more dynamic contrast regardless of volume level, I really notice it at moderate and lower volumes.
This advantage always seems to make the music realistic and lifelike.It just seems to improve music`s spontaneity.
Best Regards,

"Duke and John;
You two build with two different driver designs , is there an opinion on the type of drivers that work best for dynamics ? I don't want to start a battle here, just personal opinions."

Ha! If JohnK and I get into a battle, it'll probably be on the same side.

One thing to look at is, whether the speaker can reach the SPL you want at a relatively low fraction of its rated power. In general, most speakers have about 1 dB of thermal compression at 10% of their rated power. (Keep in mind that some recordings may have a peak-to-average ratio of 20 dB or more, implying that an 85 dB average level may have occasional instantaneous peaks of 105 dB or more.)

But headroom alone doesn't tell the whole story - in my experience at least, a higher efficiency speaker will have better dynamic contrast than a low efficiency speaker even if, on paper, they have the same max SPL capability. For example, a 97 dB speaker that can handle 20 watts will usually have better dynamic contrast than an 87 dB speaker that can handle 200 watts.

So I would give weight to both factors - how efficient the speaker is, and how much headroom it has. I think there's at least one more factor, having to do with the suspension system of the speaker, but I don't feel qualified to comment beyond that.

Duke

Not surprised that high efficiency speakers are top of the list of suggestions but there's more than one way to skin that cat(love being non-PC).

For speakers, you can divide the question into 3 parts; transients, bass slam and SPL (volume). The latter being more associated to allowable distortion. Oversimplified, often it is "bigger is better".

But still if I were to choose one component, I would say turntable in purely analog system and power amp in purely digital. To put aside horn speakers for the moment.

I think you have to start at the source. The dynamic range of a cassette tape is 90db or lower at best, whereas the dynamic range of SACD (I believe) approaches 110 db. Db's being a logarithmic scale, this is an incredible difference. If it's not at the source, good luck reproducing it down the line.