Only recently have heard about these pre-amps. Are they as good as they are made out to be? Is the least expensive model as good as say a R0land Synergy? I live in Seattle and have never heard of this pre-amp so any information would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks in advance, Jerry.
Presence Deluxe MK. II, updated 2004. I am aware of the Vishay resistors and their strengths. As far as the tubes, none of them changed the "bite." The 7308 tubes are warm, but this just softened information. The 6922 Amperex PQ USA gold pins are the most detailed, but bite? Still there. Your information about the Presence model and the Holcos is exactly my point concerning the "edge": that Rankin decided to use Shinko resistors because he thought "the Holcos had a slight edge to them..." I'm curious about the possibility that changing to the next higher model, which utilizes Vishay, may eliminate the edge.
Presence MKII $3900.00 Dual Mono Construction using Copper Plated Steel Chassis Step Attenuators, Series Type using Holco Resistors Custom Machined 3/8 inch Black Anodized Aluminum Faceplate SPS 2.0 External Power Supply 2 chassis unit
Presence Deluxe MKII $4,200.00 Dual Mono Construction using Copper Plated Steel Chassis Step Attenuators, Ladder Type using Holco Resistors, designated as LTH 92 Custom Machined 3/8 inch Black Anodized Aluminum Faceplate SPS 2.0 External Power Supply 2 chassis unit
Presence Deluxe 4.0 MKII $6,900.00 As the Presence Deluxe with the addition of: DPS 4.0 External Power Supply using 2 SPS 2.0 External Power Supplies 3 chassis unit
Presence Deluxe 4.0 MKII with Paramount upgrade $8,100.00 As the Presence Deluxe MKII with the addition of: DPS 4.0 External Power Supply using 2 SPS 2.0 External Power Supplies Paramount upgrade 3 chassis unit
Presence Deluxe 4.0 MKII with Paramount Plus upgrade $9,600.00 As the Presence Deluxe MKII with the addition of: DPS 4.0 External Power Supply using 2 SPS 2.0 External Power Supplies Paramount Plus upgrade 3 chassis unit
Paramount MKII $11,700.00 As the Presence Deluxe MKII with the addition of: DPS 4.0 External Power Supply using 2 SPS 2.0 External Power Supplies Paramount upgrade LTV 92 Step Attenuators, Ladder Type attenuators using Vishay Resistors, 3 chassis unit
Paramount Plus MKII $13,200.00 As the Presence Deluxe MKII with the addition of: DPS 4.0 External Power Supply using 2 SPS 2.0 External Power Supplies Paramount Plus upgrade LTV 92 Step Attenuators, Ladder Type attenuators using Vishay Resistors, 3 chassis unit
Paramount MKII Special Edition $16, 800.00 As the Presence Deluxe MKII with the addition of: DPS 4.0 External Power Supply using 2 SPS 2.0 External Power Supplies Paramount upgrade LTV 92 Step Attenuators, Ladder Type attenuators using Vishay Resistors Special Edition upgrade 3 chassis unit
Presence Deluxe MKII Statement with Paramount upgrade $9,900.00 As above with the addition of: Paramount upgrade 4 chassis unit
Presence Deluxe MKII Statement with Paramount Plus upgrade $11,400.00 As the Presence Deluxe MKII Statement with the addition of: Paramount Plus upgrade 4 chassis unit
Paramount MKII Statement $23,400.00 Two Paramount MKII units used separately for left and right channels 6 chassis unit
Paramount Plus MKII Statement $26,400.00 Two Paramount Plus MKII units used separately for left and right channels 6 chassis unit
Paramount MKII Special Edition Statement $33,600.00 Two Paramount MKII Special Edition units used separately for left and right channels 6 chassis unit
Options LTH 92 Ladder Type Attenuator with Holco Resistors $800.00 A pair of ladder attenuators utilizing a total of 92 Holco Resistors. DPS 4.0 External Power Supply $2,850.00 Uses two SPS2.0 External Power Supplies Detachable umbilical cords Completely separate grounding system for left and right channels LTV 92 Ladder Type Attenuator with Vishay Resistors $3,600.00 A pair of ladder attenuators utilizing a total of 92 Vishay S102K Resistors. Paramount Upgrade $1,500.00 MIT PPFX Capacitors Expanded power supply capacitors Paramount grounding topology Paramount Plus Upgrade $3,000.00 Cardas Golden Ratio Capacitors Expanded power supply capacitors Paramount grounding topology Special Edition Upgrade $5,400.00 Custom made Copper Capacitors Detachable umbilical cord Option $600.00 For owners of the SPS 2.0 external power supply who want detachable umbilical cords Gold Knobs $150.00 each knob 18 K gold plating on the knob. A three step plating process is used to achieve a beautiful gold finish on the knobs.
NOTE: All gold finishes are optional All Contents Subject to Change Without Notice First Sound, Inc. 833 SW Sunset Blvd. Ste. L57 Renton, WA 98055 425.271.7486 voice 425.277.8653 Fax lobsang@ix.netcom.com www.firstsoundaudio.com
OK TVAD, I check my Excel chart and I was wrong. There are sadly only 13 (thirteen) First Sound variants. I constructed the spreadsheet from the 2004 price list with some additional info from the First Sound web page and several reviews. Emmanuel has verified my count.
Oops, forgot again. The new variants are 'Plus' variants on the Paramount theme. Thus: Presence Deluxe Mk.2 4.0 with Paramount Plus Upgrade. Paramount Plus. Presence DeLuxe Statement with Paramount Plus Upgrade
For example, here are some of the key features of the Paramount Plus:
Controls: 2 volume, 2 source selector, 2 tape switch, 2 mute switch, 1 cap discharge switch Chassis: 3 total (2 power supply, 1 amplification/control) Custom machined anodized Aluminum (2) Wiring: Paramount wiring 2 mono power supplies PS Capacitance per channel: 278,000 mF Total PS capacitance556,000 mF Capacitor type: Cardas Golden Ratio Capacitors Volume control types: Ladder step attenuators Attenuator capacitors: Vishay S102K Number of attenuator capacitors: 46 x 2 Power supplies: 2 PS Ombelicals: Detachable Paramount grounding
Calloway, you suggested earlier you were planning to upgrade from your Presence model to a real Paramount. Have you ordered/received your unit? You may be able to comment on perceivable sonic difference between Holco and Vishay-based models.
No kidding TVAD about the number of variants. Even with the spreadsheet I tend to get confused. And you are right, it would be interesting to learn about the rest of Mphnkns's system.
Tvad: I don't mind anyone suggesting that it might be other components. Unfortunately, that's not the case. I've changed every single component in the chain and the brashness is there on nearly every record with brass instruments (but only on forte and up passages). And it's not the amp clipping, either. I even thought it might be the equipment stand ringing, so I changed that, too. It's still there. I've even borrowed equipment that is well balanced, such as the Ayre CD player, and it's still there. Of course, some may think it's the recordings, but I don't think so. I just read another thread in which the CAT and the FS were compared. The poster posited that the CAT had more lower midrange energy, and this is part of the frequency where the "richness" of instruments come through (and of course, the midbass). The FS sounds less rich in the midbass even using an old JVC CD player and they have too MUCH midbass, so there shouldn't ever seem to be a "leanness" in that frequency with the older JVCs. I think the older FS units were actually a bit richer in the upper bass/lower midrange, whereas the newest MK II is perhaps more "transparent." However, that transparency, to my ears, thins out the body of instruments, much as Rackon says. I mean, let's be logical, too: no component is perfect, and this just happens to be where the FS deviates from neutrality. Not a problem, per se, but it doesn't sound as dimensional as my older FS unit did.
Here's the thread, by a First Sound Presence Deluxe MK. II with 4.0 power supply ( a step up from mine). Notice he notices the lack of "sweetness" in the First Sound also.
And here I come again to address Drubin's curiosity about my "preamp of choice." I don't really have one at this point. And I still own my First Sound; it's just that occasional glare bothers me more then it once did. I think some of that is that I once thought it was the amp or equipment stand, until I replaced the stands to Neuance platforms, Zoethecus and even Ikea Lack tables (the Billy Baggs racks ring something fierce! I find it hard to believe that the Absolute Sound recommended them: they must have cotton in their ears, seriously! All you have to do is tap the top of the stand and it'll ring). Some of the things I notice about the First Sound are recent. Some of the rest of the system: Accuphase amp, Hurricanes, and about 10 speaker systems including the Genesis 6.1s for two months. Other components include Nordost Valhalla interconnect/speaker cable; Shunyata speaker cable/interconnects; Transparent speaker cable/interconnects (and each company's respective power cords, including the Valhalla power cords, Transparents top of the line power cord, and Shunyatas Pythons). Several different front ends: JVC 1010 and 1050 and 1010 modified, Sony DVP 9000ES and Philips SACD 1000 as well as an Arcam FMJ 23 (never, ever glaring up top!). Turntables, too.... I'd love to know why brass glares on the system, but haven't found an answer. Changed plug polarity and everything. I think the link I included where the poster, who owns both the CAT and the FS, and said the FS never sounds "sweet" is on the mark. It's a very "clear" component, but it seems, in the most recent incarnations, to have lost some of the sweetness it might have had. My linestage was an older one, and it was definitely "sweeter" than the Presence Deluxe Mk. II I now have. I think in eliminating some of the "electronic sound" that Emmanuel dislikes, he may have done away with some of the "tenderness" that music displays. Just my observations, of course.
The only reason I'd look for an alternative, really, is to have a remote and to have more granularity in the volume adjustment. Oh, a mono switch would be nice I suppose. Better sound is difficult for me to imagine, but that would be a factor, too.
Mphnkns, those are fine posts you made. Thank you for your thoughtful comments and your response to my question.
TVAD - I ended up not getting that 4-box unit, mostly because the seller found out it did not have the upgrades (Vishay stepped attenuator, paramount upgrade) he though it had, so he's gonna keep it and upgrade it for himself.
As for those other thoughful impressions of the FS, I would add that MY Presence Deluxe MK II (fed with electraglide, cabled with Stereovox, amplified by berning, into Sonus Faber Guarneri Homage's, with 1960's Pinched waist Amperex 6922's) is as smooth as silk, no glare or hardness I can perceive - none at all, and the emotional content of music is "there" in spades.....
Mphnkns...maybe the Valhalla & FS together are too much of a muchness.
I tried several ICs besides my Nordost while I had my FS, including Cardas Golden Reference, FMS Gran Finale and a couple others.
Artg, interesting to note you have the Berning amp, I think Berning amps and the FS are an especially good match, at least from anecdotal evidence.
Artg & other FS fans - just curious, what kind of music do you mainly listen to? I listen to all kinds but about 70% classical, especially large scale orchestral & choral. I do listen to rock, but the majority of what I play through my system is acoustic music of some type.
I'm also aware of the limitations of my front end (Cary303/200) which is very good but not SOTA, especially in the upper frequencies - that's not however, the area where I found the FS lacking for me. If anything, the Cary is fuller in the mid-bass to midrange than is strictly neutral.
BTW, the only common denominators I see with my system and Mphnkns' system are Neuance Platforms and Lak! Never tried Billy Bags and don't want to.
It's been a couple years since I heard a Callista but it was an amazing preamp. Better than the Calypso.
I have no idea what "granularity" in the volume control means - finer increments maybe???? Wanna 'splain that Drubin? I'm fuzzled.
I do love my Herron. I forgot to add that it has the 166 upgrade. I would love to hear the VTSP-2. It adds remote and polarity switch to the VTSP-1a/166 I have, which may be my dream preamp. BTW, all Herron preamps have mono switches.
Yikes! Rackon is correct, I do mean finer increments. I always thought this was an appropriate use of granular, but I just went to the dictionary and see that I'm all wet (or liquid, if you prefer). More steps in the stepped attentuator, how's that? (Not to be confused with having a preamp that goes to 11, which is also a good thing.)
It's possible that the FS and the Valhalla aren't the best of friends, but in this system, it does show up regardless of the interconnects. Trust me, Artg, I'd love nothing better than for the system to NOT sound a bit hard on brass crescendos. I just don't know what else I could change as every single components, tubes included, has been substituted into the system. It's a bit of a puzzle to me. I wondered if the OA 2 tubes could be going bad, as they're the only tubes I HAVEN'T changed in the preamp! And, for those considering the First Sound, it is entirely possible that this may be an issue endemic only to MY particular preamp. Not this model, just, literally, the First Sound Presence that I own. And I've read the reviews and I've never noticed anyone mentioning this. Unfortunately, my First Sound hasn't read the reviews, and it seems not to know it shouldn't sound edgy on Forte-level brass!
Mphkns, Here is another hypothesis: is it possible that what you are hearing with FS on loud brass creschendo is what is sometimes called 'cuivre', or 'brassy', which can be heard live, when the metal body of the horn actually vibrates somewhat loosely under extreme FFF. If that were the case it may mean simply that FS is more revealing than other pres. But, if you do not like 'cuivre', you are not the only one. Cuivre sound is the bane of orchestras and conductors, unless it is specified explicitly in the score.
My understanding is that the OA2 tubes are either good or they are not, but they don't go bad over time. Also, as I recently discovered, the preamp works just fine even after they do go bad (or at least after one goes bad). The triode tube doesn't get properly biased is all that happens, so you may start to notice some sonic changes.
By the way, I bought 4 of them from New Sensor and it's a good thing because one of them failed pretty much right away. Apparently the failure rate is high, but if it happens, it's within a couple of days.
Guidocorona, thanks for the suggestion that this might be what I'm hearing. I suppose it's possible. It's just that it seems unlikely that it would show up on nearly every cd in the collection, especially given that I've had some of these cds since 1991, and have never heard this particular sonic trait before, and I've had some very revealing equipment in the "good ol' days." If it only showed up on several of the CDs, I would just chalk it up to the CDs themselves, but it appears pretty frequently. The oddest trait is how it's ONLY brass that causes this effect. I suppose it's still possible that the First Sound is showing this, but over the course of 20 years, I wouldn't think that the First Sound is the first high resolution preamp to demonstrate this. In any case, I'm more interested in doing the detective work to find out what's causing it than getting another preamp.
That was going to be my next suggestion, but TVAD beat me to it. Emmanuel will be on vacation until April 20th, after which we can ask him about the possible nepherious effect of Holco resistors on the brittle brightness of brashingly brassy brass, the moral philosophy of dual unstacked stepped attenuators, and other such esoteric matters. In the meantime, replacing Gabrieli on modern brass with Gabrieli on sackbuts, ebony and rosewood cornettes, serpents and pendulous serpentones may alleviate your suffering and prevent all cavity fillings from shattering prematurely 'in situ'!
I'm sure Mr.Go has his reasons for making the preamp with dual volume controls. Whether or not anyone thinks they are valid or not will probably not change his mind or make him say, "Gee that's a good idea. Why didn't I think about that?"
OK, I am catching up with this thread after reading the last 51 of 83 responses. Forgive me if I am asking Mphnkns something that has already been covered: Have you explored the power source issue, and specifically the outlets (receptacles) that the FS is plugged into? I had the PS Audio outlets/receptacles and they seemed overlay a kind of glare that might fit into the same band width and quality on brass that you refer to. I installed the current FIM outlets, and bingo, glare gone.
If you happen to be using a power conditioner, try not using one at all and see what happens. Again, sorry if this has already been covered.
Also if you have acrylic shelves, that could possibly also create a similar, brassy sheen effect. I have taken to putting a board of 5/8 MDF and Aurios bearings between the acrylic shelves of my Arcici Suspense Rack and the FS main unit: (from bottom up) shelf, MDF, Aurios, FS. Big help in creating more focus and calming down a slightly splashy quality on crescendos. I do the same under the CDP.
On the Paramount Plus score, I happen to have recently upgraded my 4.0 model to the 4.0 w. Paramount Plus upgrade and I couldn't be happier. It's not the full-on Paramount Plus model, just the 4.O w P Plus upgrade. Very worth while. The noise floor is lower yet and the sense of transparency is increased. Bass pitch definition is also improved, and dynamic control on large dynamic swings is better. The subtle shadings or gradations in intensity of a singer, a concerto soloist, a chorus, etc seem to come through with greater clarity and, dare I say it, musical meaning.
System: VPI TNT 3.5/SME V/Benz LP/Luckenk PP1; Ayre CX-7 CDP; FS pre'; Cary SLAM-100 monos in triode mode; Coincident Super Eclipse; Audience Au24 throughout, Silent Source power cords throughout. Arcici rack, two dedicated 20-amp AC lines; FIM outlets; room = 12.5 x 17
It must come as no surprise, but my system is in flux again.
I sold the First Sound, and may end up with the FS Paramount - but not 100% certain. I am using this oppty to revisit tubed linestages. Part of the deal is my new source, and the wiring upgrade on my Berning amp have exposed the limitations of the Presence Deluxe MK II. I need more transparency, a quieter background, and even more dynamic impact. As such, i'm about to go into serious debt, since we all know that you need to spend stupid $$ to significantly better the FS PDII.
Anyway, to help fund said upgrade, i've been selling someother stuff. power conditioner, power cords, and Im thinking about selling the 1960 Amperex "Pinched Waist" 6922's that I spent a small fortune to acquire (ok, I'll come out and say it - embarassingly, I spent $500 for the new set, which might have 100 hrs total on them).
If any of you are interested in this ULTIMATE tube for the FS, email me an offer. If not, i doubt I'll post a classified since tube selling is such a hassle. I would just keep them around in case I ever need another reference 6922.....
Interesting, Art. You have the disease pretty bad I see. :-)
What caused you to reach the conclusion that the FS was a "problem" in your system?
Is it possible to get more transparency and a quieter background? I have had only brief exposure to the Audio Aero, but I wonder if you didn't give up a little of those qualities when you changed sources. Does it have a vairable out? Can you go direct to the Berning?
Anyway, for more than a year, I had both the FS and a Placette Active in my rack. Before you spend $10K on another tube linestage, you might want to see if you can try out the Placette, which sells new for about $4500. It may give you the qualities you seek, but you may miss some things as well.
well i didnt say the background was not quiet (or that it was "noisy" - it aint), or that there were no dynamics, but if you ask emmanuel himself what the upgraded versions of his preamps deliver - he will tell you quieter performance, better inner detail and delicacy and better dynamics. Since that's from the designer's own words- then it's obvious that the Presence Deluxe at 4200 is the FINAL word in preamp design, right?
Like i said I may end up with a Paramount, i just havent' decided. Yeah, i do have the disease bad.
and yes, i spode with emmanuel about sending in my FS for upgrades, and he was totally supportive. After all, I am not turning my back on his preamp by any means, but generally speaking, the FS was an extended audition for me. I love it, but want to push the envelope further, that's all.
Of course you are correct. In my opinion, to my ears, in my system I dont think the source, cables or amplification is going to change for a long long time, unless I win the lottery, so i'll continue my binge buying/listening on the preamp side of things, and may very well end up back where I started, but that's part of the fun - the trip.
Bottom line, if you buy value, it's relatively painless to rotate gear in/out. It may not seem sane, but trying new things can both be a curse and a blessing. To me, its fun.
I had a FS passive preamp and loved it - great musicality and finesse - and Emmanuel is a terrific guy. You cant go wrong, just check for equipment sinergy.
Artg, Go for the First Sound upgrade. You have some first class gear to go along with one of the "bigger brother" First Sound pre-amps (VAC 110/110 for example). I upgraded my First Sound 4.0 with the Paramount Plus upgrade. Well worth it.
Correction: Artg uses the Berning amp, not the VAC 110--which is used by tvad. I was confused. Even so, I have heard First Sound/Berning combo in my system (twice), and I preferred it WITH the First Sound, but that's just me...
Kalan - I agree 100%. My system sounds better with a high quality preamp. I would be happy to add a FS Paramount back into the chain, but only used (so far none seen).
The Presence Deluxe is gone. I'm also going to try a deHavilland Mercury 2 within the next few weeks, and maybe a CAT and/or Joule ELectra before making a final decision.
I think the BEST pre amp out there bar none is the new superphon Revelation 3....... you can get it with or without gain.......... I think it will smoke anything. I heard one without gain....best preamp out there.
Artg, I would be interested in your impressions of any of the other pre's you mentioned: deHavilland Mercury 2, CAT, or the JE. Please update this thread.
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