What can you tell me about First Sound pre-amps?

Well, Artg, we will await your report on the CAT's new home in your system. Please update us.

OK, I am catching up with this thread after reading the last 51 of 83 responses. Forgive me if I am asking Mphnkns something that has already been covered: Have you explored the power source issue, and specifically the outlets (receptacles) that the FS is plugged into? I had the PS Audio outlets/receptacles and they seemed overlay a kind of glare that might fit into the same band width and quality on brass that you refer to. I installed the current FIM outlets, and bingo, glare gone.

If you happen to be using a power conditioner, try not using one at all and see what happens. Again, sorry if this has already been covered.

Also if you have acrylic shelves, that could possibly also create a similar, brassy sheen effect. I have taken to putting a board of 5/8 MDF and Aurios bearings between the acrylic shelves of my Arcici Suspense Rack and the FS main unit: (from bottom up) shelf, MDF, Aurios, FS. Big help in creating more focus and calming down a slightly splashy quality on crescendos. I do the same under the CDP.

On the Paramount Plus score, I happen to have recently upgraded my 4.0 model to the 4.0 w. Paramount Plus upgrade and I couldn't be happier. It's not the full-on Paramount Plus model, just the 4.O w P Plus upgrade. Very worth while. The noise floor is lower yet and the sense of transparency is increased. Bass pitch definition is also improved, and dynamic control on large dynamic swings is better. The subtle shadings or gradations in intensity of a singer, a concerto soloist, a chorus, etc seem to come through with greater clarity and, dare I say it, musical meaning.

System: VPI TNT 3.5/SME V/Benz LP/Luckenk PP1; Ayre CX-7 CDP; FS pre'; Cary SLAM-100 monos in triode mode; Coincident Super Eclipse; Audience Au24 throughout, Silent Source power cords throughout. Arcici rack, two dedicated 20-amp AC lines; FIM outlets; room = 12.5 x 17

Artg, I would be interested in your impressions of any of the other pre's you mentioned: deHavilland Mercury 2, CAT, or the JE. Please update this thread.

Artg, Go for the First Sound upgrade. You have some first class gear to go along with one of the "bigger brother" First Sound pre-amps (VAC 110/110 for example). I upgraded my First Sound 4.0 with the Paramount Plus upgrade. Well worth it.

Correction: Artg uses the Berning amp, not the VAC 110--which is used by tvad. I was confused. Even so, I have heard First Sound/Berning combo in my system (twice), and I preferred it WITH the First Sound, but that's just me...

Mphnkns, So you have the outlets and shelves covered. Good. Did you mentioned in another response whether you're using a power conditioner or power strip of some sort? If you are, by pass it and go direct from the wall.

Could you please tell me (again, if you've already said) what power cord(s) you're using on the First Sound---and what the power cords are elsewhere in your system for that matter? If you have access to Silent Source power cords, give them a try.

Also, what model of First Sound are we talking about? (Sorry if you're repeating things, here...)

The only other thing I can think of is that guidocorona's suggestion of the 'cuivre' phenomenon on brass may be coming through with the First Sound in such a way that happens to mesh right in with the rest of your system's qualities so as to make it more apparent than with other pre-amps.

Your case is an odd one. I have found that the First Sound pre-amp is neutral, and it seems to be sensitive to system integration issues possibly more than some other pre's.

Mphnkns, Please don't infer from my inquiries about what you have or have not done that I imply that you have not covered your bases. I merely ask about your situation as a form of trouble-shooting so I can possibly help out.

As far as describing my First Sound as having "leanness" or being "edgy," those terms would be almost the farthest from my impression of all of the First Sound models I have heard. I would describe the sense of detail from my First Sound as more subtle and lifelike than many other High End pre-amps: CAT Ultimate, Lamm LL2, and ARC Ref 1 MkII---all of which I auditioned in my system for a few days. With the FS, I would say that the details seem to just occur in the flow of the music without forcing them 'in your face.' The sense of transparency, with a well-setup First Sound, strikes me as clear and unveiled with little electronic haze or interference.

I am not familiar with the earlier versions FS units so I can't comment on greater power from the mid-bass on down one way or the other. I have learned that working with two 20-amp dedicated lines, FIM outlets, and Silent Source power cords has helped out a lot to realize what the FS can do---and I am sure I can do better. Likewise, using wood shelves and Aurio Isobearings have enhanced the performance of my rig. In my system, the bass power and dynamics are big and satisfying.

You mentioned about something a long the lines of the Nordost Valhalla may not agree with the FS but that you did try other interconnects. Can you be more specific? What other interconnects? Did change out interconnects both upsteam and downstream from the FS pre-amp? Have you listed your entire system somewhere and is it current? I'd like to explore your case more, but I would need your entire system setup description---including your room---to go much further if you would like some help on this, that is. You have said that you've tried various power cords such as Nordost, Shunyata, PS audio, and Transparent. Did you make these power cord substitutions only on the FS or elsewhere in the system as well and exactly which models did you used? (I have actually heard the Shunyata Diamondback exhibit a slight "bite" in some systems.)

I assume that you know more about HiFi that I do. I assume that you have a better ear than I do. It may just work out that another pair of virtual eyes and ears focused on your system may prove useful to you.

I tried Nordost Quattro Fil with the First Sound. Not good. (I would say the sound was edgy and lean with Quattro Fil, as a matter of fact.) I ran Nordost SPM speaker wire for two years. With the Audible Illusions M A3 in the system, the SPM was fantastic; with the First Sound, I prefer Mapleshade Double Helix Plus, or Audience Au24, or best of all, Shunyata Lyra speaker wire. Even though the speaker wire is a few links downstream from the First Sound, it mattered a lot when I changed to the FS pre-amp. Likewise, changing the power cord on the CD player almost does more that putting that same power cord model on the pre-amp. This stuff illustrates why it would be helpful to get your whole system's list and description. E-mail me off line if you want. Totally understandable if you don't want to go into it all.

This is the combo that's working for me these days:
VPI TNT 3.5 TT/SME V 'arm/Benz Micro Ebony LP cart'/Lukascheck PP-1 Phono stage; Ayre CX-7 CDP (running RCA unbalanced); First Sound 4.0 w Paramount Plus Upgrade; Cary SLAM-100 mono power amps (running in triode-mode Push/Pull at 95 watts); Coincident Super Eclipse (original version, 6-Ohm instead of the standard 14-Ohm); Arcici Suspense Rack; wood shelves and Aurio bearings; Audience Au24, or Shunyata Lyra speaker wire; Two dedicated, 20-amp AC lines; Silent Source Signature power cords throughout; 12.5 x 17' room with acoustic foam on parts of all walls except the speaker end. (LEDE config for now); Speakers fire down the long wall; Speakers are positioned about 5 feet from wall behind them and about 2.5 feet from the side walls. Floor is wall-to-wall carpet over concrete.

Artg and Rayhall, The CAT Ultimate compared to the First Sound 4.0 is the same road I also traveled last year. I also wrote on at least one other thread about the CAT vs. the FS. And the impedance mismatch issue cropped up in a big way in my system with the CAT. The CAT had an extremely aggressive quality when paired with my Cary SLAM-100 amps (whose input sensitivity is .75 V). The First Sound is a much better electrical coupling with the Cary amps than the CAT was and the F.S. is by far the more natural and 'easy' pre-amp-although I would not say laid back.

Artg, Please update us on how the CAT integrates with your system over time. (I think we have both mentioned that the F.S./Berning 270 combo is a good one, too.)

Rayhall's experience with background noise in the CAT vs. the F.S. agrees with mine. The F.S. is much quieter. My system responded to the CAT exactly the opposite of Rayhall's experience. The CAT was anything but laid back. The CAT was bright to point of un-listenable. I know this is NOT the CAT sound, and I chalk it up to my power amps' sensitivity. The CAT's bass was simply astonishing--although overblown in my case.

The F.S. has detail galore but does not force it like the CAT did--in my system. The upper-mid band prominence that seems to be coming up in discussion associated with the F.S. turned out to be coming from PS audio outlets and the shelving I was using. Power cords, signal cabling, shelving, and tubes all matter a lot with the F.S.--maybe because of it's remarkable transparency and (theoretical) lack of coloration otherwise.

All other pre-amps I have worked with (Lamm LL2, AI M3A, CAT Ult, cj LS-16, ARC Ref 1 MkII) to some degree seem to hype the signal to get the music to come through above their respective, attendant noise floors. The F.S. seems to lay the signal bare by lowering the noise floor and then gets out of the way. The music takes on a less-processed quality---as Rayhall said so well.