Watts! How many do we need?

nitrobob wrote:

Yea, I’m serious. Here is my in car camera view of one of the thousands of passes I’ve made in the last 25 years of driving one of these things. 

Top fuel? Wicked, your username certainly makes sense now. Those engines with that kind of fueling makes a physically felt havoc of noise. 

Loud? Most certainly. But I like music loud also, when its called for.

Maybe you need music loud for that very reason ;) 

My most recent experience of a Valve Amp design producing 3 Watts Output, has been a revelation.

I stepped of the Bus many years past, in relation to Low Watt Valve Amplification, when I had been embarked on the journey to discover my ideal Valve Amp Design.

I could not endear to SE and PP was my preferred design, especially bespoke built 845 PP Amp's.

Yesterday a bespoke built design using a Triode Pre > Triode / Pentode Power Amp', coupled to reasonably efficient Speakers blew me away.

The Headroom, expanse of Soundstage and Separation between performers is possibly unheard to me. The detail that was able to be audibly detected was extremely unusual, but really wanted to be maintained.

I am a Flea Watt convert, within 30 minutes of the new experience, I'm over the moon it continued on for another 3 hours.     

@pindac

My most recent experience of a Valve Amp design producing 3 Watts Output, has been a revelation.

3 Watts of valve amplification may be sufficient to drive some very efficient speakers in a small room in nearfield listening mode. It may produce all the fine attributes you mentioned but for most meduim/large speakers in a medium/large room setup this wattage will certainly not be sufficient.

In the context of how many watts we need, with all the virtues of valve amplifiers, 3W/10W/20W will not be able to energies any meduim/large room in any satisfying way in many/most cases. One should also be guided by speaker's recommended amplification.

In my case,  I was once interested in a very high end 50W valve amplifier but when I spoke to the manufacturer they said for my speakers and in my room 50W will not be sufficient! I will need 160W valve amp to be fully able to energise the room and get the best out of my speakers.  There must be a reason why the company also sell 250W valve monoblocks. My speaker's recommended amplification: 50-1000W into 8 ohms. Sensitivity: 90dB  .

@rshank64

@rshank64 In posts made, I attempt to only write and share of experiences had.

As this report made is the description being offered of a very very recent experience had, the content has a relevance to the Topic of this thread.   

I am not reporting on a Audio Retailers opinion.

The Speakers were placed in a room with Dimensions approx' 24' (7.5mtr) x 17' (5mtr) approx' 6' (1.8mtr) from the rear wall), 2' (600mm) fom the side wall, with a spacing between the Speakers of 12' (3.6mtr).

The first row of seating was 10' (3mtr) extending back in two more rows to approx' 15' (4.5mtr)

Between a group of eight in attendance, of which none were a nearfield listener, and one attendee is a active Audio Retailer, another attendee a retired Audio Retailer, there was only talk of the very positive impression that was being made by the 3 Watt Output Amp' within the whole group. The Group were not familiar with such a sound that was present, Voluminous Soundstage, with noticeable/notable separation, accompanied with detail retrieval that was hard to fathom, how it was able to manifest as an end sound. The designer made it known where some of the electronics in use were not conventional, and are a contributing factor.  

Five Sources were used, both Digital and Analogue, using Silver Interconnect Wires and Silver Wire Speaker Cables.

Immediately after the 3 Watt Ouput Amp's demo, a 30 Watt Output 300b Power Amp was put into service.

There was zero audible evidence this Amp' was doing a Better Job of Driving the Speakers and Coupling to the Room, even though the 3 Watt Amp' was using much of the VC to attain similar dB levels. There was plenty of evidence to show how the two designs are separated through an end sound produced 

As good as the 300b is as a design, where the circuit is TDP designed Transformers and is using interstage Tranxs, as well as a very careful selection of resistors that have been highly thought off over the years.

The assessment (not hearsay) for the the new concept design Prototype 3 Watt Output Amp' has been an indelible experience leaving a large impression for an attraction to it. The Amp' is very much worthy of being commented on, especially in a Thread of this Topic.   

Enough to cause a brown-out in your neighborhood at will. 

@pindac
Thanks for the detailed description  of your experience and surroundings where this demo took place.
That is indeed a very impressive performance from a 3W valve amp.  It is very encourging to know that there are new valve designs in development which may change the way we experience audio.
Hope this product will be made  available to all to evaluate, purchase and enjoy in the near future!

@larryi 

If watts tell half the story, which advertised spec of the amplifier is a better indicator? I understand amp x volts = watts. However, based on my basic search, amplifier specs don't advertise/disclose this info.I need one more variable.

However, based on my basic search, amplifier specs don't advertise/disclose this info.I need one more variable.

@tee_dee The variable that tells the most about how an amplifier will sound is distortion vs frequency, which is a chart with a curve on it. Ideally, the curve is really a straight line across the audio band. If it rises with frequency, this can cause the amp to sound harsh and bright. The lower the frequency this happens, the more harsh and the more bright. The brightness is not a frequency response error, its caused by higher ordered harmonics being audible. The ear interprets such harmonics as 'bright' and also 'harsh'.

But you are right, many manufacturers do not publish this particular measurement! I'm of the opinion they really don't want the spec sheet actually telling you how the amp sounds.

I don't think that I would ever buy any amp based on advertisement, published specification, review or internet buzz because none of that seems to match my own personal preferences when I do get to hear the gear.  I don't go crazy trying to hear everything; through long experience, I generally know what kind of amps I like and should bother to audition.  

I commend the OP for starting this thread. And I think his perception that he's barely using a watt is probably accurate. I often advocate the use of a simple app on a smartphone to measure sound pressure levels. I use Decibel X PRO. Using that app I find that I am almost always listening in the 65-70 dB range. I appreciate that there are other, more truly accurate ways of measuring SPLs out there. My approach is "close enough for all practical purposes".

This is a worthwhile thread and might even deserve to become a sticky. It is great to see another forum member referring to Roger Sanders' excellent white paper on tubes vs. solid state. That's useful information, but it doesn't address another topic that I thinks is relevant here.

The topic I'm referring to is circuit design, both within the amplifier and the crossover. Here (IMHO) the circuit design, how it is wired (point-to-point or does it use circuit boards?), parts count, parts quality, the ear of the designer and so forth have a critical impact on the sound of an amplifier. I think that sonic differences are often attributed to power that have much more to do with the topics above, each of which is worthy of a graduate seminar and extensive study.

I used to own an amplifier designed by Roger Sanders. I used it to drive my Quad 63s. It was superb. Do an internet search on "Innersound Electrostatic Amplifier". You might find a reference to a sneak peek by Harry Pearson circa ~2000 in which he hinted at the high praise he was going to bestow upon it. That amplifier had loads of power, no matter how you wanted to measure it.

I am using different amplifiers now. Though I still own Quads (now 2805s and use a Quad 909 amplifier to drive them) most of my listening is through my Altec A7 Magnificents driven by 1.5 watt Alan Eaton 45 monoblocks. IMHO the circuit of the Alan Eaton amps is the quintessence of elegance. The number of parts is tiny. The quality of parts is high. The circuit has been refined over years by the designer. Same with my Supratek preamp.

System synergy is essential when discussing this question and an amplifier that sounds good in one system might sound not-so-good in another system. Listening preferences are also very relevant in this discussion. How do we listen? What do we listen for?

Every piece of equipment is a complex set of compromises. Cost, size, weight, specifications, etc. I have come to a place where I'm mainly interested in equipment produced by small, specialist companies that don't advertise, where the reputation is spread via word of mouth.

Just my .02...