Want to upgrade my cartridge from 2m blue to black
My first post here on the forums and I needed an honest opinion. I have a cheap music hall mmf 2.2 turntable with 2m blue installed. I like the sound but was wondering if I can get better details from upgrading to a black cartridge on my basic turntable. Would it be worth it? I’m definitely an analog lover but am budget constrained. Any feedback will be greatly appreciated.
Jico used to make stylus for the 981 but a
Pickering XSV3000 should work just as well. Which are a little easier to find and cheaper!
Jico never made SAS stylus for Stanton/Pickering, all they did is cheap generic Elliptical replacement which is a total degradation compared to any Stereohedron profile. It's better to send worn stylus to Expert Stylus in UK for retip with Paratrace profile. Expert Stylus Co LTD. specialized in Stanton/Pickering repair for ages. Our @nandric is their best customer for retipping his huge collection of MC with Paratrace profile from Expert Stylus :)
Stanton 881 with D81s is not as good as the Stanton 981 with D91s!
Stanton 981 is much better cartridge than 881 model and i think sealed D91s stylus cost at least $450 minimum. So ebay price is pretty close.
Also Pickering XSV-7500 is much better than XSV-3000
P.S. I have factory sealed Pickering D3000 Stereohedron stylus if anyone interested.
My latest find is low impedance/low output mega rare Pickering XLZ-4500s, this MM cartridge has an output as low as MC and must be connected to MC phono input. XLZ series is completely different from XSV series.
For those interested I can perhaps chip in with some recent experience
Last weekend I sat in on an Ortofon demo. 2M red, blue, black, Quintet black, Cadenza bronze & black.
All were mounted in detachable headshells. The system, top end Project TT with Musical Fidelity mid-range solid state and Klipsch speakers, with the exception of the addition of Ortofon's entry step up for the MC's the system remained unchanged.
2M red offered decent engaging sound. Someone earlier in thread mentioned they found using a cheap cart on better table offered better sound than a better cart on a more basic TT. Based on this demo I can understand that comment.
Quiet a change moving on to the blue, far more detailed by comparison, the red while engaging didn't allow the same level tone and insight into the way an instrument was being played. It sounding sweeter with incidental instruments more obvious in the mix. Vocals however were noticeably more sibilant, for me it tipped the balance toward overly so though others didn't feel it was a problem. The black alleviated the sibilant issues while extending the sense of real instruments being played. Soundstage was set between the speakers and there was nice tone and flow to the music, very acceptable sound but for me missing the beauty of what's available in a really good analogue set up.
The Ortofon rep clearly stated that the red/blue stylus were interchangeable as are bronze/black, while it may fit adding a bronze/black stylus to a red/blue body does not get you a bronze/black sound, just something different.
Moving on to MC the really significant change was the way in which the soundstage opened out, there were significantly more ambient queues that defined instruments in space across a wider, deeper stage, while retaining all the tone, body and flow of the MM range. Much more to my taste though I can understand some may favour the different flavour of the 2M black presentation
I am gettting as much satisfaction from older MM designs than I did with my MC cartridges if not more. It seems as though the 1200g stock arm is made for these old cartridges with high compliance. Just amazing.
Agreed on vintage mm. They do a lot of things right for not a lot of money. Careful shopping can net you 4 or 5 totally different"flavour" vintage mm carts for same cost as one new MC cart.
Of course research is needed to see if they suit your tone arm in way of compliance and if replacement stylus are available at all.
There maybe a few Nos stylus left but you will have to be lucky. Possible there may be a Jico SAS available for that model. Either way the price will not be cheap.
I paid probably too much for a Jico SAS for a Shure M91e but it sure does sound sweet.
@tzh21y Yes, I immediately fell in love with the sound of it.The turntable body is a bit resonant, I'm going to try some internal damping to see if that helps. From what I've read, it's impossible to find a replacement stylus for that cartridge, other than some 3rd party options. I will enjoy it while it lasts.
I recently acquired a JVC QL-Y66F direct drive table with a Stanton 981 HZ cartridge for $545. Much better table than the music hall 2.2. Music hall 5.X tables are often available with a decent cart for around $500. I just sold one for a little less than that.
I did recommeded a much better turntables if he would consider it with $1200-1500 budget (not with $700 budget), those turntables are brand new Technics direct drive. If you think an upgrade from one belt drive to another belt drive (actually just a different version of the same turntable) was so noticeable for you then you have to try a decent direct drive and if your ears are so sensible to turntable (not to a cartridge or stylus profile) you must be blown away by the Technics. But using a mediocre cartridge on any good turntable is a perversion.
When the OP asked for a cartridge upgrade is not a good idea to tell him he must buy another turntable first.
In your opinion, which you have yet to demonstrate is based on any actual experience with the turntable the OP has. I would have welcomed that kind of advice before I spent the money I did trying to upgrade that table only to discover later there was a more cost effective and more impactful option. The OP has made a decision and moved on. Perhaps you should consider doing the same.
There is also an Astatic mf300 on ebay, NOS including headshell for $599. No idea if that is twice as good as the mf100?
No, it’s not Astatic MF-100 is like Glanz MF-71L, Astatic MF-100 is like Glanz MF-31L. Huge upgrade over all of them is Glanz MFG-610.
If you are considering Astatic MF-300 for $599 you can buy much better cartridges for the same price (or even cheaper), for example the Audio-Technica AT-ML150 OCC or Stanton 881s mkII or Pickering XSV-3000 are all under $400 normally (and much better).
But for $280 Astatic MF-100 is great. For this price an Ortofon M20FL Super with FineLine stylus is also superb.
@rollintubes
I think @chakster is a little ignorant when it comes to this issue. I’ve upgraded tone arms (which a TT upgrade would do) and used the same cart. The sound improvement was significant. Putting a shibata tip on an ortophon blue is like driving a boom box with a 300w amp. Jus’ sayin’
Upgrading tonearms is what i’ve been doing for years, but you can’t mount a good tonearm on cheap Music Hall belt drive turntable, also you can’t probably buy a much better turntable with better tonearm for $700 (except some vintage used items) which was the OP’s maximum budget.
If you cartridge can not extract maximum from the record groove and your whatever tonearm can’t compeslate it, no matter which tonearm. The signal goes from the record grooves and stylus profile extract music from the grooves. Wider frequency response and accurate reproduction is a primary function of the stylus and cartridge, then it depends on any other componets in the chain. But not vice versa. Upgrading tonearm is great if you already have a great cartridge with nice stylus profile.
MM cartridges designed to swap styli, what you’re sayin in noncense. MM cartridge manufacturer designed different styli at different cost to let the buyer choose what he need, if anytime anyone would like to upgrade MM cartridge a first thing to do is to buy a better stylus. I want to remind you again that Music Hall tonearm was matched with 2M cartridge by the manufacturer (the synergy must be OK).
If you have a little bit of technical knowledge you can look at comparison chart of the 2M line to understand the generators are all the same!
You can continue tube rolling. I think you’re changing tubes in the amp, but not the amp for the tubes. Some NOS tubes cost more than the whole amp! I’ve been there too.
@big_greg
But spending less than the cost of a cartridge on a turntable upgrade doesn’t make sense...
This hobby is all about constant upgrade of everything, it’s all about spending money of everything related to the audio system. We’re doing it step by step. When the OP asked for a cartridge upgrade is not a good idea to tell him he must buy another turntable first.
I think @chakster is a little ignorant when it comes to this issue.
He knows more than anyone. Just ask him, he'll tell you. Or don't ask him, he'll still tell you. Buying 60 cartridges demonstrates... something. But spending less than the cost of a cartridge on a turntable upgrade doesn't make sense...
I think @chakster is a little ignorant when it comes to this issue. I've upgraded tone arms (which a TT upgrade would do) and used the same cart. The sound improvement was significant. Putting a shibata tip on an ortophon blue is like driving a boom box with a 300w amp. Jus' sayin' Rollin
@pbnaudio good, remember it was one of Raul’s favorites back in the day in MM thread. For higher price that seller may have Glanz MFG-610 LX (you can ask). Glanz is better (different cantilever and different tip), but for double price. The seller is legit, some other audiogon members bought stuff from him (me too). But for whatever reason you can always return a cartridge under paypal buyer's protection with no loss.
Chakster - I'm going to try that Astatic MF100 on your recommendation - I do most of my listening with top flight MC - have curtly installed A90/Lyra Olympos/ Lyra Atlas/ Ortofon Cadenza Black/ and the 2M Black on a "red" body :-) - you know the thing that can't be done
@jji666 why do you think a tube phono stage (especially a cheap one) is a good idea ?
A few responses:
(1) I introduced this as a pro-fun suggestion. Tube rolling, especially if one has never done it, is pretty fun. Plus with a relatively inexpensive piece of gear the stakes are low.
(2) "Cheap" is in the eye of the beholder. The OP’s budget implies "cheap" relative to many posters here, but you can get a phono preamp for well less than $100 that technically does the RIAA curve correctly (not that I would...). A $200-$400 phono preamp can be pretty decent and about what is appropriate as a mate for the turntable.
(3) Audio is a journey. While I am usually of the mindset that when you have the upgrade itch you are better off focusing on one big leap upgrade versus a bunch of smaller purchases, analog/phono based upgrades go steep pretty quickly. I was thinking that tube rolling would be a fun experience and allow for an exploration of various sounds based on tube etc.
(4) I did say that the MS-12b is not quiet, so I can see your point. However, short of power tubes that can be much, much more expensive, I found that tube rolling with a phono preamp made the greatest difference relative to rolling in other gear. Your mileage may vary, but that was my experience.
(5) Note the OP's name...
Point being, if the OP wants one of those experiences where he/she wants to relisten to all the vinyl through a new lens, this would be a good way to do it. Spending only on a cart upgrade as with the current TT, and the OP doesn’t have the budget to really do a great TT upgrade and new cart, would likely top out performance based on the TT ceiling. A tube phono preamp is a way to try out different sounds and enjoy an analog feel with old school tubes on that budget.
I am listening to an old NOS Sonus Gold Blue MM cartridge. I also have an older Pickering XSV 3000. After listening to these cartridges, I see no reason to entertain MC cartridges beyond my Lyra Delos. No reason. I am getting older so maybe my ears are going but on the 1200G these MM cartridges sound just incredible.
@jji666 why do you think a tube phono stage (especially a cheap one) is a good idea ? After a years of tube rolling with some expensive NOS tunes i ended up with SS gear and it is so much better. Regarding the phono stage i think the tube must be avoided.
Here is a pro-fun suggestion. It may not exactly be about a direct path to the highest upgrade, but as implied by the budget of the OP I actually think it will in the end be a good milestone in the ascension to higher audio:
(1) Upgrade to an Ortofon 2M Bronze. It's a noticeable upgrade without being a quality mismatch with a budget turntable.
(2) With the rest of the budget, get a tube phone preamplifier. Pro-Ject makes a bunch but the most fun I had with a tube phone preamp was the Yaqin MS-12B. Not the quietest in the world, but the ability to find decent old stock 12AX7 and 12AU7 tubes (which can be pretty cheap) and roll tubes, change sounds, is a ton of fun. And you can use the thing as a line level preamp too!
Overall there will be some initial sound improvement with the potential for more as you find tubes.
I would second the idea of NOT ever buying a used cartridge/stylus unless you know the seller well. @chrisoshea
We are talking about NEW OLD STOCK cartridge, not a USED CARTRIDGE? Do you know what is New Old Stock ? Never used, never mounted, like new. Astatic and Glanz are way better cartridges than your Ortofon 2M series, but the cost of the Astatic MF 100 with LineContact stylus from that Japanese seller is just $280 (with free shipping worldwide) and the cartridge is NEW (unused). Nude LineContact stylus, you can buy 3 cartridges for the price of one 2M Black for example. Instead of a spare stylus which is cost $500+ anyone can buy 2 x Astatic MF100 cartridges (with nude LineContact stylus and Moving Flux generator) for the price of 1 Ortofon stylus. Not bad if the cartridge is NOS, don’t you think so?
Do you know how many of us have bought Astatic and Glanz ? Simply seach audiogon and you will find all the info.
I would like to remind anyone who's afraid to buy even used cartridges that you can always return a cartridge with no loss on ebay under paypal buyer's protection (if you think the cartridge is not as advertized), this is simply guaranteed for any purchase on ebay with paypal payment.
I think it would be much more problematic for you to return a new Orotofon if you don't like it than any items purchased on ebay.
Some people just don't want to learn about simple rules for ebay policy and paypal protection.
@chrisoshea.. I finally took your advice and took the plunge and ordered a bronze stylus for my blue cartridge. As you and others here have posted it should fit my cartridge so hopefully it works out ok. I’m excited to hear the improvements over my blue. And thanks to everyone for their great insight, helped me to come to a decision.
I have mastered and am able to control photons of light. I can stand in front of a mirror and not see a reflection if I choose. And there is absolutely no noise at all while this is happening.
tubluvr1....I (again) recommend you start with the 2M Orange cartridge and stylus. This is a great upgrade for your MH 2.2. The Orange is a nude fine line stylus and much easier to set up on your tone arm. The Black Shibata requires more nuanced set up, especially azimuth which the 2.2 arm doesn’t allow. The Orange’s cartridge/engine is the same as the Black. You can always and easilychange to the Black stylus only later when you are ready...probably when you get a more refined turntable. I think the Black is overkill with the 2.2 and the Orange is a great upgrade. I added the Orange on my MH 2.2. When I sold my MH I put the original cartridge/stylus back on and kept my 2M Orange, which I have on a second arm for my VPI Prime. It sounds great on that turntable too, although I mostly use my Lyra Delos MC cartridge. Good luck!
'The reason why Black is more expensive than Blues is much more compliacated stylus profile of the Black, not a cartridge generator, the generator is the same'.
That is not correct. The 2M black body is made of a different material to that of the blue, there are also component differences inside. Silver wire for example.
Hopefully I can offer you a definitive answer as I have gone through them all, in a manner of speaking.. I started off with a 2M Red on an SME3009s2i fitted to a Transcriptors Hydraulic reference that I had rebuilt, you can see my reaction to the sound on YT at Transcriptors Hydraulic first play if you're interested. The day after I made the video I upgraded to a Blue stylus as it was obvious the TT/arm combo was good enough to warrant it, I was very pleased with the upgrade. A few months back I saw a company selling the 2M Bronze cartridge at an unbelievable price to clear them, just over £200, I ordered one with a plan in mind as I will reveal. It was my plan to sell the brand new stylus, which I did for about the same price as the cartridge cost me and then use the blue stylus in the bronze/black body. My reasoning being that all the blue styli I would ever buy would benefit from the superior body. The improvement over the stock blue was so marked I ended up biting the bullet and buying a black stylus at their promotional price of £300. Am I happy, oh yes I am, it was an absolute pig to set up correctly but well worth the effort and expense. So definitively, you can interchange all the 2M styli and bodies, mess the geometry up however and it may well sound worse than your blue, very fussy stylus profile methinks. Oh yes, video on YT of the deck with the black cartridge for comparison, see 'Psychedelic Transcriptors'. Hope that helps you.
If I install the 2m black cartridge (with black body) on my mmf 2.2 and properly setup vta, vtf, azimuth, overhang etc. will I be able to at least extract 90% of the 2m blacks potential in performance?
No, you will never get the quality of 2M Black (Shibata stylus) with 2M Blue (Elliptical stylus), no matter which turntable you’re using. Your cartridge is already aligned by the manufacturer on your tonearm, right ?
If you can’t properly extract the bass and hight from the vinyl groove how a better turntable can compensate it to you ? The music cut with a cutter head, the closer the stylus profile shape to a cutter head the more accurate and more impressive is the reproduction of the record in your system. This is rule number 1.
Because the ONLY component that physically ride in the vinyl groove is the stylus tip (diamond), nothing else.
You already have an optimal combination of the cartridge and tonearm, this combination selected by the manufacturer.
The Ortofon designed those cartridges to put them in line from cheap to expensive according to the quality level a customer can get with each model. With MM cartridges it all depends on the stylus profile.
The reason why Black is more expensive than Blues is much more compliacated stylus profile of the Black, not a cartridge generator, the generator is the same.
Do yourself a favor, ignore what some people are posting, they really know nothing about cartridge design as i can see. And their logic is very strange, more like a perversion.
You can learn by your own, just read this thread to understand why stylus profile is so important to extract maximum musical information from vinyl:
You’re using the cheapest stylus now, Conical and Elliptical are the cheapest profiles. Elliptical is entry level profile, conical is the worst ever!
The more advanced profiles are LineContact type, there are many: Hyper Elliptical, Shibata, Stereohedron, Van Den Hul, F.Gyger, MicroLine, SAS, MicroRidge .... they are all High-End (nude siamonds, not bonded)
Why do you think so many different profiles have been designed? Just to make the sound of your vinyl much better, to be more polite with your records in terms of record wear, and to serve you much longer. All you need in case with MM is just to change stylus.
-Elliptical stylus life span is about 500hrs -Shibata stylus life span is twice as much ! -MicroRidge stylus life span is about 2000 hrs
Turntable has nothing to do with your record wear factor, frequency response of your cartridge and your vinyl grooves.
Turntable can make a rotation of the record more stable, one turntable can be better isolated from vibrations, tonearm can have better bearings etc, but all these things in your case is irrelevant if your cartridge has entry level stylus profile. The most noticable different (if you willing to spend no more than $700) you will get ONLY by upgrading a stylus profile on your cartridge (or with completely different cartridge) first.
Later you can upgrade your turntable for $1200-1500 (look for new Technics DD released this year, just don’t buy another cheap belt drive).
tubelvr1, if you put a 2M black cartridge on your table and it's properly set up you will get much better sound than you are getting with the blue cartridge. I subscribe to the philosophy of Andy at Vintage Tube Services: "I would much rather have a mediocre amplifier with good tubes than a high end amplifier with cheapo tubes." Perhaps not exact wording, but the concept holds.
You should see a benefit by putting a better cartridge on that table. How do you quantify what percentage of improvement?
Your money could be spent better, but it's your money and your choice.
The bass will never be as solid on that turntable, the background noise will not be as low, the details of the music won't be as present as they would be on a better table. The turntable matters more than the cartridge.
I’m reading great back and forth between all the analog audiophiles on this forum so let me restate my question in a different way and please give me a honest and straightforward answer...
If I install the 2m black cartridge (with black body) on my mmf 2.2 and properly setup vta, vtf, azimuth, overhang etc. will I be able to at least extract 90% of the 2m blacks potential in performance? If so I will be satisfied and go this route. Later if I have the money I can invest in a higher quality table. So let me know what you guys think.
With turntable and tonearm like yours you're indeed free to disagree, you sold it as i can see, hope you can buy a coreless direct drive to forget about the "sound" of turntable forever.
Personally i use only DD truntables of the highest class, they are all dead quiet and does not have their own sound signature, they are rather similar than different, but the choise of tonearm does make a different. However, the analog system sound as good as the cartridge is.
@bsmg just stick to your Ortofon if you don’t want to discover much better MM cartridges from the past. They are available in NOS (never used) condition, sometimes even factory sealed and still cheaper than those Orotofon models you’re using. As i said earlier in my own experience only 2-3 samples out of 60 different cartridges i’ve bought have had some problems and all of them came from professional re-sellers who never really care about the qiality test or simple check, some of them know nothing about the cartridges and willing to quickly re-sell them. It’s important to understand who is the seller (an audiophile like us or just a businessman). BUT Luckily paypal buyer’s protection is always on the buyer’s side, full refund always quaranteed (including retunr shipping) even if the seller said "no return". Absolutely no risk for the buyers, but can be time-consuming.
Astatic MF-100 MF (Moving Flux with LineContact stylus) NOS available right now from Japan just for $280 on ebay, bargain! I remember when Raul swear it’s one of the best
Hi Peter! Thanks for reminding us about pulling the plugs off those pins on the 2M series. I totally ruined a Red when I tugged on a plug to remove it and the back of the cartridge pulled out with it, and then (the horror!) I saw those super fine coil wires with it! Arrrrghhh!
Friends: BE VERY CAREFUL if you decide to de-install a 2M cartridge when pulling the plugs off the pins!!! Do not allow the back of the catridge to pull out as you do so!
Suffice it to say I decided not to replace the Red, but I still have my Black.
And thanks for setting the facts straight about swapability of the styli across the 2M line.
I will stick with what the Ortofon engineers have published
This is for marketing purpose only, read what Peter replied to you, i believe he’s experienced with both carts and styli if you will click on the link in his post (you will see).
All cartridge generators of 2M are identical 99%, you see what’s the difference if you have comparison chart yourself, but why you keep telling us they are different? If you’re afraid to swap the styli it’s your own problem.
@big_gre
I own the same turntable the OP has and have put a really nice cartridge on it (along with other upgrades - an acrylic platter and Project Speed Box)- the Nagaoka MP500, Nagaoka’s $700 top of the line MM cart. I also owned a Music Hall MMF 5.1 and even with an entry level cartridge ($49 Audio-Technica AT95) it sounded better than the 2.2.
If you like a $49 Audio-Technica AT95 cartridge better than completely different $700 Nagaoka this is all about the cartridge you like, and your personal preferences in sound, not about turntable! Turntable does not have a sound as much as the cartridge in entry level Hi-Fi system. You can keep buyin’ turntables for your cartridges, but i will buy cartridges for turntables/tonearms, not vice versa.
But the question is not Me or YOU, the question is the cartridge for the OP, he did not asked what is a better turntable. I currently have 6 very expensive turntables, 6 toneamrs and 20 cartridges, so what?
When i swapped and aligned Stanton 881s mkII on friend’s Pro-Ject (nearly identicall to OP’s Music Hall turntable) it was a huge improvement over the 2M Red and my friend was happy to buy Stanton 881s MKII because this is exceptional MM cartridge, read here about this cartridge if you don’t know, it’s $350 cartridge which is much better than $700 Nagaoka and many other modern MM crap. Stanton was Doug Sax's monitoring cartridge for his famous disk mastering. The 2M Red will never be a better cartridge, no matter which turntable you will buy for it.
@viridian
Some have not been in the hobby long enough to understand that someone’s first hand experience may be contradictory to another’s experience.
This is all fine, but as i told you we could start from the room treatment and all our listening experience will change immediately. You can also mention an electricity as a pure energy and so on and on. But there is only one thing that can dramatically change the sound of the OP’s entry level Hi-Fi system - this is a cartridge. You can’t buy much better turntable with tonearm for $700 and even when you will buy it (second hand) the next thing you will come to is a cartridge. For $1500-2000 he could buy a better turntable and better cartridge, but for $700 he could buy ONLY better cartridge or for about $500 a better stylus for his existing cartridge.
This is BS and i already explained how big is the improvement of the
Stanton 881s mkII instead of the Ortofon 2M Red on the same cheap
turntable called Pro-Ject Carbon. I’ve heard it myself, did you ever
tried just to swap a cartridge ? Or you’re always buying a new turntable
for each cartridge ?
Did you read what I wrote? I own the same turntable the OP has and have put a really nice cartridge on it (along with other upgrades - an acrylic platter and Project Speed Box)- the Nagaoka MP500, Nagaoka's $700 top of the line MM cart. I also owned a Music Hall MMF 5.1 and even with an entry level cartridge ($49 Audio-Technica AT95) it sounded better than the 2.2. It's actual experience, not stuff I'm making up as you appear to be doing, since you don't seem to have any actual experience with the turntable being discussed.
I will stick with what the Ortofon engineers have published; you buy the ticket and take the ride. chakster states I have no idea what I'm talking about "no matter what the Ortofon site says" and then refers to a comparison chart from the Ortofon site. I have that chart myself since I have a bronze cartridge. Electrical specifications are separate from physical attributes......maybe the pole pieces in the black and bronze are not the same as in the blue and red. Or there could be a dozen other differences in physical attributes. But I don't know what I'm talking about.....I used to know one thing, but I forgot it.
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