VPI Direct Drive Turntable

Everyone is discussing the price of this table. Why is there almost no discussion of how it performs? Surely people heard it at CES and in some other settings. Myles Astor on WBF has one for review but I've not read what he thinks about it yet.

I was told that Fremer also has one for review as well. VPI sent DD out to 3 reviewers from what I was told by my local dealer. I hope we will hear something soon. I think it was in Fremer's interview with HW that the motor was further modified by a VPI client that HW knows and there was a reference to a company that makes motor part for submarine?
There was supposed to be one DD coming over here by the beginning of this month but I guess it got delayed.

I have not seen any reference regarding MDF armboard but saw that plinth is 1/2 inch aluminium bonded to 2 inch MDF or something. Armboard on my Classic 3 is aluminium though.

There was a review of VPI direct drive last month in one of the online magazine. It was named turntable of the year by that magazine as well but I just can't remember the name right now hmmm..

Tone Audio gave the VPI direct drive table product of 2013 after one afternoon listening to it at the VPI factory.

Biggest piece of advertorial I have read and an embarrassment for Tone audio and VPI for allowing it.

I trust that the Myles Astor for Positive Feedback and the Fremer review's will be real and in depth for such an important product for VPI.

Once again, the motor in the DD is made by ThinGap and it is modified from an off the shelf unit, model TG2310.

Click here --> T H I N G A P


PS. Do people know they can click on a link when it's underlined?!

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For those who are interested in motors here are couple videos on the ThinGap 2300 series motor.

ThinGap 2300 series stator overview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Virt0gHho0

ThinGap 2300 series rotor overview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQGz_quaaIs

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Thingap 2300 Series Motors - Construction Overview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeJHGgb7Reg

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The Thingap motor seems to be a modern and novel version of a traditional "coreless" motor. Several vintage Japanese turntables (e.g, Kenwood, Victor, Pioneer Exclusive), as well as originally some of the older Dual turntables, use a version of the coreless motor, and so does the Brinkmann Bardo. It has been my experience that such turntables have a very pleasing sound that is devoid of the coloration that can be (but not always is) associated with cogging of a typical DD motor. This bodes well for the VPI. But can anyone see why the Thingap motor should cost $5000? Maybe forming that copper cylinder is tricky.

Also, a laminate of alu and MDF would perform quite a bit better than either material used by itself, due to the positive effects of CLD, so I would not damn the VPI for using "MDF", per se.

Further, if VPI uses the same motor as the Caliburn, it may be regarded as a stone, cold bargain, since we know that the Caliburn is $150,000. (Just sayin'.)

I agree with Stringreen that the market will decide if the price is right for the VPI Direct. Arguing about the price is fruitless. I applaud VPI for introducing a new drive system from their usual belters.

I know Mr. Weisfeld is a collector of vintage turntables including DD units and his favorite is the JVC TT-101 so it's not surprising that he chose a coreless motor. And I agree with Lewm that coreless motor DD tables have the most pleasing sound, at least to my ears. The ThinGap motor is a very unique approach to the coreless motor genre. The Caliburn uses it for their belt drive table but VPI found a way to apply it to their DD so that's exciting. I look forward to future reviews and if positive, I hope VPI can trickle it down to less expensive models in the future. It's about damn time people are paying attention to DD technology without playing with marketing terms, eg, "magnetic drive," "mag-drive," etc... Maybe even Art Dudley will change his mind one day. :)

Teres was once a belt-drive maker and is now focusing on DD so there must be something to it that lead to such development. Time will tell.

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VPI is like the Toyota of turntables, high quality, good performance and reasonably priced. There is a reason why Toyota developed the Lexus brand as they knew that the luxury hi-end market would not embrace a hi-end car made by a mid-line manufacture like Toyota.

I believe that VPI has made a marketing mistake in the branding of the Classic Direct. Do you think hi-end consumers want own a $90K Camry over a $90K Lexus LS460, even if they performed the same?

Brf, Not only do they perform the same (Camry vs Lexus with similar equipment choices), they ARE the same internally. Anyway, VPI is a successful company. Whether they made some unfortunate decisions in marketing their new DD remains to be seen. I doubt that the fate of the company rests on its success, which cannot be said for NVS, TechDas, Caliburn (already defunct, I hear), and some others.

Well, you can still get a Caliburn for half price on eBay.

I think Teres is no longer making their DD tables as they are not featured on their website anymore.

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I am curious about status of VPI. In the past TNT I thought was highly regard as among the big league table. HR-X was also no slouch. At that time, it may not be a Rolls Royce of turntable but probably quite a bit more than a Toyota, I would think.then it seems that in the last 6-7years, while many companies start making outrageously priced table, VPI went the opposite direction and aim for mid market instead with the Classic line. other companies then introduce cheaper tables as triggered down product while VPI made trigger up (is there such a word?) product, continuing to evolve Classic Line into more expensive products. Kind of strange. At one stage, I heard that VPI was even going to make a whole new table with DD that would come with its own stand and all but may be it proves to be too costly or HW may thing it would be too big a jump in their price structure? I definitely am curious to see if VPI rather unorthodox approach is going to work or not. No big word out of Miles yet but his one liner on wbf seems to be very positive for DD so far.

If Harry is using the TT-101 as a reference for his VPI Direct......it bodes well :-)

HW says it is a $4000 part, is that really the price from ThinGap?

Before VPI came out with the HW-19, they made bases for JVC and Denon direct drive motors. I'm not sure of the extent of his involvement, but I've read that he also repaired and did other contract or authorized work on DDs.

While most companies specialize, at least to some extent, in a particular segment of the market, it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. Back in the day all the mass market players had flagship tables and some are of the most revered today. BTW, Sony made some great tables and their BSL (brushless/slotless) motors were in many of their mid priced tables.
The point is, other business models can work.

VPI is coming out with a new table, Voyager. $1K includes a cart, built-in phono stage, and a pr of Grado headphones.
I've read that they can hardly keep up with overseas orders for Traveler. This and Classic popularity gives them a solid foundation for introducing new expensive tables. It's not like they're coming out with a $150K table as their only product. If they only sold a few Classic Direct, I'd bet they'd be okay, but I'd also bet they sell quite a few more. When they come out with a new flagship it will probably look more like an HRX. I'd bet that it sells too.

I recall reading on one of the audio web blogs that Mathew Weisfeld is taking on a higher profile VPI management role and Mr. W is giving MW breathing room. Wish I could recall where I read this.

I'm glad to read Dnath's post that the Traveler concept is taking root. I also recall that MW is the motivating force behind the Traveler. Kudos to MW.

The Weisfeld family has gone through some tough times. I wish them the best. And I celebrate their innovation and success.

Flieb,If I may add , In the early days of VPI, pre any table manufacturing I remember their bricks and metal platforms for resonate control being advertised ,the VPI bricks were designed to put on top of amplifiers , tuners , preamps ect.
Magazine reviews back then of direct drive tables would bolster the rating by a added star or scale only if the dd table under review was sitting on one of VPIs platform.
Mitch Cotter the man of resonate control for dd tables and probably the most successful back then with his B1 and B2.
On the west coast in California back in the 1980s I clearly remember listening to a shocking expensive table ,arm and mc cartridge sitting in a Mitch Cotter platform / plinth , Technics SP10 MK 3 and low and behold Halcro a Fidelity Research FR 66, obviously a west coast thing.

VPIs business model is repeat business by constant upgrade path, if anyone else does this in the table manufacturing business they copied VPI.
Keep them coming back for more stuff.

And finally for anyone here that have spent $30,000.00 or more on a single component,,,, "A" All I ask "hopefully " for it to live up to every expectation in the long run and "B" to be built to the very highest of standards through out...NO MDF with a plate of aluminum glued to it,...

Hi Folks,

I've been on and off following this thread but figured I would throw my hat in, there is a lot to touch upon so I'll do the best I can...

That is correct, Harry has stepped down and enjoying retirement! He is still onboard as a mentor to me and chief designer. Actually, I'm starting to find the process begins with me coming up with an idea (potentially off the walls) and he figures out how we can make it work. It has been a fantastic learning experience and I'm trying the best I can to absorb this whole industry.

Anyway, down to business... I have to say that I really enjoyed reading everyone's posts in this thread! To start with I'm going to be brutally honest, you can go the rest of your life very happily listening to a Classic 3 ($6,000) or Classic 4 ($8,000 w/ 1 arm). You don't need anything more than that to enjoy your music on the hi-end level. Heck, I'm using a Traveler in my apartment and I love it!
The original concept for the direct drive turntable was suppose to be a different/fancy chassis inspired by the look of the HR-X as well as a stand. However, the potential retail price on the original concept for the table estimated anywhere from 40-50K! The motor and the arm were finished and that is where the magic happens. We didn't want to delay the release any longer and we didn't want the price to go any higher for the consumer. That's why we chose the Classic 4 inspired design because it works, sounds great, and looks great!

The Classic Direct is giving you 5% more than what you can get from the Classic 4 or HR-X. We compared all 3 tables using the 3D arm with a Dynavector, Ortofon MC Windfeld, and the Lyra Atlas. The Classic Direct had a smoother warmer sound, and produced music close to a reel-to-reel tape (which we compared also). However, it is a case of diminishing returns. It takes a lot of work, time, and engineering to accomplish that 5% improvement. Also there is the cost for prototyping and testing, supplies, labor, and distribution. This table was 3 years in the making.

That being said, yes we do plan to trickle down the technology. Our goal in the upcoming years is to lower the price while keeping the quality. Also the advances of 3D printing are increasing every year! It is amazing the things the world has accomplished with 3D printing from medical equipment, prosthetic limbs, and now audio equipment! There was a time a computer was the size of 2 rooms and unattainable by the public. Now my smart phone has that 2 room computer beat!

Regarding our fiscal interest in this table, one of our distributors told me we should sell the Direct for $50,000 because "you can get away with it". That isn't how we operate. And I playfully used some "colorful" words in response to that comment. This is the most expensive table we have ever released, but we are still staying true to our inclusive philosophy to provide hi-end audio for all listeners.

Which brings me to the Nomad, which was referred to by some of the posts I read in this thread. The Nomad is an all in one table to appeal essentially to all audiences. One of the first ideas for the Nomad came while at the Capital Audio Fest Show. I met a young audiophile who was about 22-25 years old and was very excited to meet me to talk about his turntable (Scout 1 with the original acrylic platter). He told me that he bought his turntable while in college and took out a loan to complete his system. He also told me the toughest part was getting the rest of the components as well... amplifier, speakers, cartridge... all of the essentials to listen to music. I was very impressed that VPI stood out to him so much that he took out a loan for his table!

Here is what is included in the Nomad:

- Ortofon 2M Red which we are mounting for you.
- Grado Labs iGrado headphones.
- Headphone amplifier and output with volume control to plug your headphones in.
- Phono connectors so you can still set the Nomad up to your big rig speakers.
- Aluminum gimbaled tonearm.
- Turntable/platter.
- Full upgrade path.

I grew up in this industry, but I never expected to be IN this industry or leave my career as a teacher. Then again, I never expected mom (Sheila/former owner) to be diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. Here we are now, life is dynamic with ups and downs with products of all different qualities and price tags. Let's all enjoy the music together.

-MW

In_shore, Who would argue with your points A and B? Not I. But I would argue that there is nothing at all wrong, a priori, with using MDF (or HDF?) in a sandwich with alu, in order to obtain a result that is superior to either material used alone. That's called synergy; it can be achieved in this case with the CLD effect. Adona make shelves using granite and MDF bonded together. I don't like either material alone, and I was initially put off by the idea of even using them together, but in fact Adona shelves actually perform very well. CLD in principle can work. Unless you know that alu/MDF sounds bad, I don't know how you can condemn it out of hand.

I've stayed out of this dog fight because I have no intention of dipping a toe into "$30,000 turntable waters" under any circumstances -- period. Nor am I interested in whether MDF/Aluminum is better or worse than steel reinforced poured concrete plinths. Could care less.

Having said that, I would like to put out there a question which focuses on the value proposition of expensive vinyl upgrades. Let's just stipulate that the $30,000 VPI DD TT sounds better (whatever that means) than the "standard" $6,000 Classic 3 TT (or my tricked out "regular" Classic TT with a Classic 3 tonearm and base upgrade).

My Q is -- Lewm do you surmise that one could achieve a better vinyl performance value investment by simply buying a better cartridge? Or perhaps, a better RCM (e.g., ultrasonic)? Heck, even better quality vinyl recordings?? Of course I assume that one already has a "very good" quality TT like the Classic 3 or a tricked out regular Classic like mine.

For example, I've been keeping an eye open for a preowned Lyra Skala (sp?, or Scala), which is the next grade up from my Kleos. I assume the Skala sounds better than the Kleos, but it also retails for $1,000 more. Is it worth the extra cash? Dunno?? Any thoughts?

I also like the idea of a plug and use ultrasonic RCM which cleans and dries the record with the push of a button. No brushes, vacumes and flipping records. Too much like work.

Thanks. Sorry for the interruption.

$30K for a VPI turntable.
You can't make this up folks.

**VPIs business model is repeat business by constant upgrade path, if anyone else does this in the table manufacturing business they copied VPI.**

I think Linn is the business model, not VPI. As improvements were made they were offered to present owners, like the SDS. Before that they only had the PLC which was a line conditioner. Upgrading a table isn't mandatory, but offering an upgrade can be seen as a good thing.

Mitch Cotter's forte was electronics IMO. I once played a Cotter preamp that was pretty amazing. It left other high end units in the dust. It must have been 10 years old. He filled it up with expanding foam so his design couldn't be stolen. Probably would hold its own today.

The thinking in some circles on plinth/base design, is using different materials in combination. Different rates of vibration transmission can combine to make a superior plinth. Often a rigid material like steel or aluminum is combined with MDF. Acrylic is rigid but doesn't damp like MDF. Lead is great for slowing down vibrations. Dense, weighty material also seems very affective.
Regards,

Lewm if it's that good for this application why did you not use it with your plinths?
Why don't Artisan Fidelity , Porter Audio and Kodo Beat not use this combination of material? The production cost and material savings would be significant.
And why don't you see these combined materials in main stream tables at this price point?

Thanks Matt for your thoughtful post. I wish you, your Dad, the whole family the best. Been there and seen what you and your family have gone through with cancer. It's tough on everyone.

Hatzlachah on your new management role at VPI. Ask Mike or Jack what hatzlachah means. They'll get a chuckle and ask if that was Bruce from Wynnewood. It was and is. :) I for one applaud your innovative ideas.

Matt, do you and the rest of the VPI team think I would gain much of a performance bump if I picked up a Lyra Skala?? I currently use the Kleos. My front end is ARC. Back end too.

I had a feeling that the performance delta between the Classic Direct and the Classic 3/4 was on the magnitude you mentioned. I suppose if one wants to squeeze that last drop of performance out of his/her vinyl rig, it's something to think about.

Thanks and best wishes to the VPI folks.

Bruce

Matt, now that you are on this thread, when is that DD going to make its way to Bangkok. I am eagerly waiting to hear one now :)

In_shore, I never said that I knew for a fact that alu/MDF sandwich sounded good. I did say (twice at least) that it MIGHT sound good, because sometimes the effects of CLD transcend the sonics of the individual materials used in the sandwich. I suggested that you might be off base in condemning it out of hand. Or, have you in fact actually heard the Classic Direct? I didn't think so.

Why I did not use it: I lack the equipment and the know-how to make such a sandwich in the proper way so as to get the result one wants. I never thought of it. I took the more simple-minded approach of using slate. Then I found that slate in a sandwich with cherry or baltic birch sounds better than slate alone. Artisan and Porter are selling great beauty as well as solid hard woods. Dobbins is using proprietary materials in the Beat. At one point he referred to it as "man-made slate", or so I am told second hand. There IS such a thing, but I don't know that it has superior sonic properties. The proof of the pudding is only in the eating.

Hi everyone, Bifwynne, really appreciate the positive words :) Not too sure about the Skala because i personally haven't heard that one enough. The Kleos and Delos (staying in the Lyra family) have both sounded fantastic in our listening room and I can recommend both very highly.

Suteetat, our Bangkok distributor has one on order but to our surprise this 30K table is actually on back order! We have 3 more US orders to make/fill then we are going to start working on our OS orders. Hoping to have some tables heading to your area by the end of February.

Lewm,I apologize for not reading more carefully,... Years ago some of the serious and more innovative DIY craftsmen on various sites abandoned constrained layering using MDF, aluminum and various mass loading technics for other more effective materials with some involving measured results of various materials before building .

One of a few good examples is what Albert Porter and Chris at Artisan Fidelity use which is panzerholz. Extremely dense, difficult to work with and expensive but very effective even on it's own.

Steve Dobbins as a table manufacture took this to a another level with his own mix of materials for good reasons and all of it comes together with astounding results, a friend has one and it looks I may have to have one also.

My question for VPI is where's the BEEF,,,,,,,? the "majority"of your table is built from maybe $40.00 worth of material, two inches of MDF with a 1\2 inch sheet of aluminum glued to the top of it....the motor maybe fantastic however I just don't get how you arrive at .$30,000.00.,,,,,??

In-shore, so if VPI made the top plate out 1 inch carbon fiber at a cost of $1,000, you would be alright with the MSRP? Some manufactures introduce exotic materials to differentiate themselves from their competitors, and necessarily for improved sonics.

I would hazard a guess that ½" thick machined aluminum plinth bonded to a 1/8" steel sub plate, bonded to 2" of MDF creating a plinth cost more than panzerholz. Also, don’t forget the $30K includes the VPI 3D tonearm.

Nonetheless, still a lot of coin, but I guess that is the entry cost for that last 5% of improved performance..

In_shore, I kind of agree with Brf; "exotic" and "proprietary" are not always indicators of exceptional performance. I mean no slur on the named companies in saying this. In fact, I too am a big fan of the Beat. (Have not yet heard any product from Artisan or Porter.) Nevertheless, the point is that proper engineering trumps everything else, IMO.

IMO, you can't explain away the retail price point of any piece of audiophile equipment by looking at the sum of the component prices. If you did this then Lamm components wouldn't sell for any more than a Van Alstine. So I never find an argument stating that the parts only cost xxx to have any validity.

Audio components used to be priced based on a performance scale. Now it seems to be priced on a how ludicrous I can get away with scale.

Have you read Fremer's review in the new Stereophile?
He must get paid by the word. Holy cow. And this is just part one.
At $30,000 a pop Mikey declares it "a bargin".
I hope VPI sells a boat load, judging by this half of the article it's a winner.

04-19-14: Dreadhead
Have you read Fremer's review in the new Stereophile?

No.
I don't bother reading those infomercial magazines anymore. They are good for pictures and spec sheets, but the "reviews" are a joke.

I suppose $30,000 is never going to be considered basement bargain price but if
it outperform its competitor at the same price point and competes at the same level as tables 3-4 times its cost, a bargain is not exactly misleading either. Somehow, I doubt this review will have any impact on VPI dissident. Personally I am looking forward to hear one for myself very soon! Positive Feedback review should be coming out soon as well and early words sound like it will be along the same line as Fremer's impression as well.

Here's another positive REVIEW.

Not that I can afford it but all the reviews sure make me want to hear it...maybe at one of the hifi shows.

.

Hiho

that is paid advertisment and a joke of a review. Tone audio AND vpi should be ashamed that it went to print.

How can any product get product of the year from an afternoons listening at the manufacturers factory.

please

VPI deserves a lot better as i am sure it is a good product, but certainly not from so called reviews like this..

It's more difficult to find an honest review than it is to find an honest politician. ;^)

The best review is using your own ears. I don't take reviews that seriously like most people so it didn't bother me. It's like porn. Do people take porn seriously? I don't even take the Oscar seriously. I guess if I'm about to spend $30k, I should not be swayed by just a review without listening. But I guess some people do get misguided by reviews. And they do! Maybe I shouldn't have included that link...

Positive reviews are at best just to pique an interest, no more no less, and for me should not be used as a consumer guide. You have to do your own homework.

Back to DD. I hope the buzz about this new table will get people to take motor technology more seriously so the next time they see an expensive shiny belt drive table they will start questioning its wimpy toy motor also being used in a certain Scottish sacred cow.

.

I love my Sony PS-X9 DD. Maybe I should put my 3D Cobra arm on it and will not even reach the VPI's price tag - ha ha.
It is always stated that the VPI's motor is to be compared to the Continuums' ones. I have not seen the VPI motor so far and would like comparing it with the Bardo's design. Is there any inside view provided by VPI or other sources?
I used to have the 12" VPI arm and enjoy the wonderfully engineered and built SDS technology. VPI products were always serious.
We have noticed the lo-fi lookings of the VPI DD and cannot imagine what
really makes this table. In Scotland you get a 40 years old whiskey as an add on...