And this is why I dislike vpi. They damp the hell out of their tonearm and platters. Sucks the life out of the music making it sound flat and 2 dimensional.
Roy Gandy has the right idea. I would guess the next VPI tonearm will have zero damping. "Rolleyes"
I have forwarded to Audiogon for formal banning of this member, enough is enough, now the name calling begins.
judyazbluesSeptember 22, 2013 3:39pm
Whoa funny guy. I don't find you interesting at all. But most assholes aren't. On Monday, September 9, 2013, Stephen Chamberlain via AudiogonN wrote
stevechamSeptember 9, 2013 7:10am
Hi Judy, I've sampled your postings and, though I too sometimes like to fly the cynicism, I also value sincere dialog. Afterall why hang with a bunch of audio geeks if you really have a life, right? I was simply wondering if there might be more to your approach than meets the eye? Certainly, you have a knack for "stirring the pot" and getting the intended responses. I would appreciate your thoughts on this, perhaps via a few sentences, of course provided your attention span can last that long. Steve
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judyazblues(9 - 100.00%) Cave Creek, AZ 85327 (United States)
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I've written on a new post about the sound of this arm....MUCH better than the 10.5, however, do not get it until the new rear counterweight is released to the public....about a month.
I hear you and feel for you Stringreen. VPI generates all this goodwill in their attempt to help out and support previous and current product offerings, only to leave the customer discouraged because of poor follow through and/or execution.
If I had a nickel for every false delivery promise made by VPI, I could afford to try out the new 3D arm. If I was to give VPI a constructive suggestion, donÂ’t promise what you canÂ’t deliver.
..as for MY 3Darm.... it sits atop my turntable, however, I'm unable to set it up because I need a 200 gm counterweight. Mat promised it to me a couple of weeks ago, but I haven't received it yet. I have my Fozgometer, Mint protractor, etc. at hand. The table is absolutely level and ready to go......c'mon Mat....
Some companies do offer in-home trial periods. Reno HiFi does with Pass Labs electronics. No rental fee, just shipping costs. Some dealerships offer home trials on speakers for a fee. My friend is doing this now for an expensive, massive speaker system. I think this is a direction some companies will go as local dealerships dwindle in number. It does offer a high degree of confidence in the purchase decision when one can audition a component in his own system over a period of time.
It's interesting that VPI would offer this instead of or, in addition to, their dealer network. I like the idea of touring demo units. I would like to try one of the ultrasonic LP cleaners and compare it to the machine I have. All sorts of possibilities.
No problem at all. We have had some discussions in the past and you were always courteous and helpful to me. Like yourself, I am just interested in hearing peoples thoughts and opinions on the VPI 3D arm, which is the original topic of this thread.
I am using a stock classic 1 with the JMW 10.5 classic arm. I did speak to mike @vpi and they were contemplating making a few units for home trail purposes. You had to pay about half of the cost of the new arm up front and get a 2 week trail period for the 3D arm. If you decided it wasn't to your liking, you can ship it back and get a refund less $250.00.
So basically, a $250.00 rental fee for a 2 week in home trail. If you did decide to purchase, you pay the remaining balance and VPI would ship you a brand new production arm upon return of the rental unit.
I wish more audio companies would offer a type of trail period like this. I may try this myself if the offer is still open. I discussed this with VPI when the arm was first announced. It might be worthwhile to call VPI directly and ask them about this. I'm not certain if they will still do this or not. My conversation with them was a few months ago.
****How's this? Why not spend $4 for a classified ad? Fair enough?****
****Audio- of or relating to sound or its reproduction and especially high-fidelity reproduction
Labyrinth- something extremely tortuous in structure, arrangement, or character I get it now.****
****Rivaled by Diana Krall as the worst female vocalist of the last 20 years. Yuk****
****Whoa, glory gets b-slapped. Ouch****
****Good thinking Taters.
A bald huckster and a fat dumpster.
I like it.****
****Awesome. Another new ARC product that will be discounted 30% on release and sell for 20% of MSRP within 3 years. A dinosaur manufacturer that hasn't been relevant for 10 years.****
Hi Judy, I've sampled your postings and, though I too sometimes like to fly the cynicism, I also value sincere dialog. Afterall why hang with a bunch of audio geeks if you really have a life, right? I was simply wondering if there might be more to your approach than meets the eye? Certainly, you have a knack for "stirring the pot" and getting the intended responses. I would appreciate your thoughts on this, perhaps via a few sentences, of course provided your attention span can last that long. Steve
Does anyone know whether VPI will take a mint Classic 3 arm in trade for the 3D print arm? And if so, how much the extra charge would be? Oh ... can the SS intuit device be used on the 3D print arm?
I now own one. The uni-pivot "receptacle point" is stainless as are the side weights. Azimuth and VTF are set by the counterweight. Time-consuming set-up!!! This is on a Classic 3. Both profound and awesome. Any other questions?
@ Andyprice ... thanks for your support. Andy, I checked your system, and I think it's a fine rig. I'm sure it gives you tremendous pleasure and isn't that what our hobby is all about?
Just a general comment or two if I may. By and large, I think most of the Forum contributors are ladies and gentlemen. I have learned a great deal from so many folks. Aside from the pleasure my rig gives me, I find the technical side of our hobby very interesting. I guess I'm a frustrated scientist.
In addition, I am not jealous of anyone else's rig or room. In fact, nothing would give me more pleasure than being invited to a member's sound room and having the time and means to get there to check out how different rigs sound.
Last point, I would never "dis" anyone else's rig. Period. It's incredibly bad form. OTOH, on just one prior occasion, I did report 2 members to the moderators. The two members were using the Forum to make incredibly disparaging personal comments about each other's character. Regrettably, I'm getting close to making another referral.
That Classic Records bob Dylan bootleg series reissue tends toward the sibilant side, so the 3D armwand does not remove it completely. It was just slightly more pleasant than the metal 10.5. Also this was on a dealer's setup, not my own.
For the record, Bifwynne's system is much better than mine and I am happy for him. More power to him if he spends more on audio gear than I do. It's not my business. I'm sure he is happy with his system and enjoys it very much. I know I would enjoy it.
Why do you talk down to members here. Bifwynne asked a simple question that I would like to know the answer to as well. I'm sure stringreen will be happy to answer and tell us how the 3D arm is when he gets it up and running. Afterall, this is a forum to share our thoughts about audio products. I posted my system on virtual for everyone to see and my system is junk compared to many people here. Guess what, I don't care. I still enjoy what I can afford. There is no need to be an elitist and call people out on what they own. I'm sure everyone here wished they had $500,000 systems in a $500,000 dedicated anechoic chamber. For all I know, Somebody here actually might, LOL. I guess my point is that we all make due with what we have and use these forums as a means for friendly comparisons and evaluations of specific products. There is no need for bashing someone elses system.
I have compared the 3D armwand with the standard 10.5. Listening to Bob Dylan's Royal Albert Hall vinyl it sounded like the 3D was smoother, with less vocal sibilance.
Judy ..., I just scanned some of your Forum posts. There's a definite negative and cynical bias in most of your responses. Assuming you are a sincere and serious hobbyist, please list your system components for member comments and reactions.
I recently purchased a ET2 and now need to get it mounted on my VPI classic. A friend gave me the actual jig used by ET, unfortunately it is missing the bushing to drill the mounting hole. I'll take my time and get this right the first time. I hope.
Just got a flier from Music Direct showing the new 3D arm at $2500.
I've been experimenting with a home 3D printer, and one of the things it does is internal object complexity. I can vary the matrix inside an object to achieve structural rigidity with low weight. I assume that with a $350,000 printer that lays down one thousandth of an inch with each pass that you can design and produce a truly elegant internal structure for managing vibration. It certainly will take a while to print an object at 0.001" per pass! I think I heard that it takes more than 20 hours per arm.
Also, any tonearm that is cobbled together from parts will have boundary effects, regardless of whether the parts are glued, bolted, welded, etc. However, a single-piece arm formed of the same material, designed carefully should be near-ideal in terms of lack of boundary reflections and introduced vibration. I wonder, as others have mentioned, whether the epoxy material employed is near-ideal. And certainly I wonder about the interface to the needle bearing of the unipivot too.
But I'm excited by the technology, and suspect that it will allow iterative development inexpensively, simply change the program a bit and the next arm will perfectly reflect the design change. I'm not sure I'd be one of the pioneers to buy it, but maybe if it gets some good reviews, I'll take a flyer.
..Just to pass the time with my 3D arm, not wanting to mount the cartridge, since it is residing very safely in its wooden presentation box, I applied various tuning forks to the arm to try to excite any resonances that might be there....just couldn't find any....this arm is DEAD.
Peterayer....The bottom line is money. SME has a rear counterweight that actually does just what you say. You add or remove supplied lead (i think) shims to ad or remove the weight to provide the perfect rear counterweight to be as close as possible to the front fulcrum. The VPI weights are finished products of which you request the needed counterweight depending on the weight of your cartridge. I have a very heavy Benz LPS and a 200 gram weight is needed to balanced it properly. The weight that is normally supplied with the arm is 120 grams which would work with many lighter weight cartridges. One should be sure to get the proper weight for his/her particular cartridge, and not be satisfied with a rear counterweight that is too rearward to accommodate the cartridge.
String...... Mike, Jack and Harry are super accommodating. I would ask one of them to do you a favor and overnight mail/deliver the correct counterweight.
I can't speak to the VPI 3D arm, but regarding the counterweight issue, I agree with Stringreen. At least on my 12" SME arm, the counterweight is very heavy and is as close to the pivot as is possible with the design. My AirTight Supreme cartridge weighs 12.5 g which is the ideal weight for this arm and allows the heaviest SME counterweight to slide very close to the pivot. The cartridge was developed in part on this arm.
I believe the relevant issue is moment of inertia. The closer the counterweight is to the pivot, the less inertia and the quicker the arm can respond to movement as the stylus tracks the groove. And I presume the less the cantilever has to work to overcome the inertia of the arm, lessoning distortion as the stylus remains more in the center of the groove.
There is also the issue of resonance within the structure that supports the counterweight. If the counterweight is far from the pivot, I think the support is more likely to resonate, all else being equal.
This does not address the issue of resonance in the main armtube that was discussed up the thread, which is perhaps the main design goal of the 3D arm. It will be very interesting to see how this arm performs.
Lewn....When the counterweight is away from the pivot, and the arm/cartridge is negotiating a warp, the counterweight "wants to" continue in the direction it was thrown, thereby disturbing the tracking of the cartridge. When the counterweight is near the pivot point, it doesn't move as much and disturbs the cartridge much less.....letting it do its job as best as it can....making better music. The idea is to get the heaviest counterweight as close to the pivot as you can for best performance.
Stringreen, Why would you say categorically that the idea is to get the counter-wt as close as possible to the pivot? The square of its distance from the pivot affects effective mass. The stone-body Koetsu might benefit from a high effective mass. Most report that it does; for example it is said to perform wonderfully in the very heavy FR66S. Granted, for other reasons, a large pivot to counter-wt distance is not the optimal way to gain effective mass.
The system that I heard the 3D arm in is not mine, but that of an acquaintance whose system I have heard many times. The arm cabling I believe is Discovery and it probably is not fully broken in yet; this could very well have been partly responsible for what I heard.The Koetsu is a wood bodied one. I may have overstated the issue of sameness of sound but it was a perplexing observation. As I said, the sound was very fine, but I was comparing it to the Forsell table which is known for explosive dynamics. I would expect you will be very pleased with the arm. Keep us posted.
Hi Frogman.....Thanks for your evaluation of the 3D arm. I still have not received mine (4 weeks since I placed the order) . I am also perplexed why the same quality of sound should appear in all your recordings. It would seem that the arm, or something else would cast its resonance signature on all you're listening. If indeed the arm is not resonant, something else must be. When I get my arm, I will test its resonance.....according to Harry, it almost doesn't exist. We'll see. If your Koetsu is one of their stone bodied models....I do suppose you had the appropriate counterweight...?? The idea is to get it as close to the pivot as possible...200 grm counterweight? That one is not normally shipped with the arm. The arm comes with either Discovery or Valhalla...which one is yours, and did you give it a chance to work in.
HW bashing is just plain silly. OK, got that out of the way.
I heard the 3D arm in a VERY fine system that I know very well. It is mounted on a Classic 4, and that rig replaced a Forsell Reference; same cartridge (Koetsu). The owner does not want to deal with the complexity of the Forsell. Obviously, it is almost impossible to seperate the sonic change wrought by the arm from that of the table; and that of the particular synergy of each pairing. Having said, here are my impressions:
Tonally, low resonant signature is most certainly a characteristic of the sound that I heard. There is a striking reduction in the audibility of those narrow (and not so narrow) frequency bands that seem highlighted in relation to the rest of the frequency spectrum, and that results in sound that seems extremely well organized tonally. Soundstaging is VERY stable and precise; and perhaps as a result of the tonal evenness and purity (maybe), the soundstage is smaller front-to-back as well as left-right with smaller individual images; but, all extremely well organized. Overall, the sound is leaner with less weight.
But, and for me, this is a big "but". While the smaller soundstage does not bother me, the tonal aspects of the new sound do to a degree. I find there to be a sameness of timbre and tonal character to every lp played, with a subtle tonal politeness that I respected but didn't excite me. I don't understand this, since reduction in resonance should allow the differences in recordings to be more obvious, not less so. Live music is not always polite, it can and should sound downright nasty sometimes. Dynamic politeness is intrinsically linked to tonal quality, and particularly in the case of a turntable where speed stability is so important. Speed stability with the Classic 3 is first rate, but in spite of this the sound, for me, did not have quite the dynamic get-up-and-go and sheer explosiveness that I remember with the Forsell. Is it the table, the arm? I don't know. Very fine sound, but once again, system context is the key. Personally, I would not assume that reducing "resonant signature" in one component will necessarily yield sound that is closer to "real" without seriously considering system context.
There's only so many ways someone can reinvent the wheel before people catch on. Spend your money anyway you want to but "Harry" is laughing all the way to the bank. Can you say Ka-Ching?
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