VPI 3D tonearm

I have no idea if the VPI tonearm is complex or not, or if it sounds good, but I do know that the 3D process allows for much more complex structures than casting or machining would allow. I also know, that after a given production, 3D printing is less economical. That production point depends on the cost of the tooling or molds required for other processes. However, that tooling or mold is required whether you build 10 or 10 thousand and can be prohibatively expensive to prototype, which is really the purpose of 3d printing, not mass production, at least yet. But, when you can tweak a design, and have a working prototype in a day, for little expense relatively, that allows a designer to try various options in something resembling their final form.
I just dont get why anyone would be down on Harry for building and selling turnables and arms when he could just as easily be buying stuff from China or making some other widget for Walmart to sell. Its his money, he takes all the risk, and is entitled to whatever profit he can derive. if you think you can do better, then take your own money, roll the dice and have at it.

+1 Manitunc

Dear Lew,
In welding......the norm is not to use 'foreign' materials but to create a homogeneous 'whole' by melting together identical materials. The strength of these welds can be designed to be identical to (or even stronger than) the two pieces being welded.
However....there is a chance that there are changes at the molecular level of the 'welded joint' which, whilst not affecting strength, performance or visuals......could possibly affect the acoustic properties or integrity of the whole?
With 'gluing'......I admit that there would be an acoustic change at the interface of the adhesive medium.
Points taken :-)

Manitunc

That production point depends on the cost of the tooling or molds required for other processes. However, that tooling or mold is required whether you build 10 or 10 thousand and can be prohibatively expensive to prototype, which is really the purpose of 3d printing,

The point here is that you can perhaps use drawings for existing or modified parts to input into the computer, but there is an equivalent to tooling costs in that the more complex the shape the longer it takes to design the part in order to get the information into the computer.

I am familiar with modelling and prototyping techniques, and the advantage of 3D printing (and laser cutting, and CNC machining generally) is that because nowadays almost all products are designed on computer it is possible to extract from the drawings enough information to quickly see what a product will look like with regard to its external dimensions, but to integrate all the various drawings of all the parts is a bigger task.

Peterayer

there are some complex shapes and sectional changes in the arm tube interior that are not possible to produce by other methods.

That would be the advantage - by incorporating webs, coaxial tubes, and varying wall thickness it would be possible to alter dimensions to increase strength and rigidity without adding to effective mass, while reducing resonance. What it appears is that the original drawings have been tweaked, rather than a new concept considered based on the technology. Which is fair enough, and a reasonable starting point.
J

.

I am definitely am interested in this arm. As far as material is concerned, isn't Continuum tonearm using similar type of material? I thought somebody even mentioned in the past that Copperhead arm may actually be the first 3D printing arm or at least used some earlier technology along 3D printing line?

So far, all the account that I heard from people who attended the NY demo was all positive so I am a bit surprise at all the negative comment so far. I guess once the arm becomes available, I am looking forward to hear them at my local dealer and see what happen!

Much depends on the nature of the joint. An abrupt change in section will have acoustic consequences, either good or bad, whatever the method - 3D printing, welding, gluing or otherwise.

In the case of some 3D printing, lasers are used to fuse the materials which is not much different from welding.

Some glues are stronger than the materials on each side of the joint, some are flexible. Some are solvents which allow the material to dissolve and reform...

Anyway, Two things are certain: (1) The early adapters will be ecstatic over this tonearm, and (2) we'll be arguing over why that is.

What I find so interesting is that HP (VPI) is judged so harshly. I don't think anyone has had such success in such a niche market. Success/failure of this arm will be better evaluated in time. With all this interest on these and other audiophile pages, I'm sure everyone will be given a voice.

As far as material is concerned, isn't Continuum tonearm using similar type of material? I thought somebody even mentioned in the past that Copperhead arm may actually be the first 3D printing arm or at least used some earlier technology along 3D printing line?

I don't know where you appear to have obtained your 'information' as there have been numerous reviews and articles about the Cobra and Copperhead arms over the last 8 years with not one of them ever mentioning '3D Printing'?

The Cobra and Copperhead armwands are 'Reshape' Shape Optimised, Resonance Tuned Compound Curve Wands from proprietary woven fibre technology pioneered by Continuum Audio Labs.
The wands are unique monocoque construction using advanced fibre and resin technology proprietary to Continuum Audio Labs.

"Woven fibre and resin technology" is currently not able to be utilised in 3D printing.

If Continuum HAD in fact developed the first 3D printed tonearms......Harry Weisfeld would look pretty silly making such a 'song and dance' about it 10 years down the track?!

If Continuum HAD in fact developed the first 3D printed tonearms......Harry Weisfeld would look pretty silly making such a 'song and dance' about it 10 years down the track?!

You obviously have a underlying resentment towards all things VPI/Harry Weisfeld. Could you please clarify your past experiences with Harry/VPI so that we can put a proper perspective on your comments. You are a much smarter man than me based on your years of comments here but even I can see through your veiled arguments.

I own an upgraded Classic "2.5" which is essentially the basic Classic plinth with a Classic 3 tonearm and base. My cartridge is a Lyra Delos and SS Zephyr as backup. I realize that my VPI rig is pedestrian compared to those who own the Classic 4 with the 3D arm. Ok, I can live with that.

But here's my 2 cents FWIW. I am as happy as a clam with my Classic 2.5. Mike and Jack have always treated me like a patrician rather than a pedestrian plebe. In fact it was Mike and Jack who set me up with detailed DIY instructions and tools to install the Classic 3 base on my Classic plinth. The install was lickity split easy.

So what the beef? Are there better tables and arms. I suppose. Here's an idea. Why doesn't someone start a thread about the best TT and arm. There's a similar thread currently running about best speakers -- over 1600 posts. I guess one person is a genius and 1599 folks are fools. Forgive me if I decline to post a comment.

Count me in as a VPI fan.

You obviously have a underlying resentment towards all things VPI/Harry Weisfeld.

So obvious is my resentment towards "...all things VPI/Harry Weisfeld" that in the thousands of my postings to 288 Threads over a 6 year period prior to this Thread.....there is not a single reference to anything VPI/Harry Weisfeld?

Au contraire mon frere...........I respect and admire the accomplishments of Harry Weisfeld (as I do a number of strong talented individuals (like Bob Graham, George Cardas, Richard Vandersteen, Ivor Tiefenbrun and Roy Gandy) who have created and maintained a high-end brand in a difficult and esoteric market such as audio.

I wouldn't care who it was who prefaced the introduction of an audio item by proclaiming its method of manufacture as the 'raison d'etre' for admiration.
My response would be the same.
Release the product.
Let the reviewers and customers hear and test the product and if it proves to be a revelation......by all means, proudly disclose the possible secrets behind its success?
Do you think anyone would care that the Continuum Cobra and Copperhead tonearms were designed by a group of engineers applying a complete suite of advanced software towards their modelling beginning with Finite Element Analysis using NASTRAN, PATRAN, and DYSTRAN before finalysing in the complex process of Gradient Shape Optimisation using Reshape software if those arms didn't sound superior to the competition?
Or do you you think anyone would care that the Schroeder tonearms are hand-made and drilled and assembled like a Swiss watch by one man in Berlin if they didn't offer a sound that some audiophiles find superior?

I have zero experience with VPI products or Harry Weisfeld and consequently have no opinion on them one way or the other.
This is a discussion Forum in case you hadn't noticed....and for those owners of VPI products with 'thin skins' (such as yourself Zenblaster)...I would recommend avoiding any Threads which threaten to contain offending negative comments and simply stick to a VPI Appreciation Forum?

And whilst you ruminate over my advice Zenblaster.....I'd really work on my comprehension skills so that a posting which in fact is stating that Harry Weisfeld is NOT a fool..........is not taken as "obvious underlying resentment"?

Well said Halcro.

Generally speaking it's the least experienced posters with the strongest positions.

You'll find them here and in other VPI "appreciation" threads.

Stringreen, looking forward to hear your comment. It is so much more useful to hear from someone who have actually heard the real thing. As Halcro said, it does not matter how the thing is made, it is the final result that counts and I am eagerly waiting to hear the final result and I definitely will audition it as well when it is available locally.

Dear Halcro,
First, thanks for the advice, I am always looking to transcend my shortcomings and sometimes the best observations come from the most curious places. I could have worded my post better, no antagonism was intended.

This quote:

I have zero experience with VPI products or Harry Weisfeld and consequently have no opinion on them one way or the other.

puts your previous posts into proper perspective.

Stringreen,
Have you got the new arm yet?
Would like to know what you think.

I run to the door every day, only to find jewelry, shoes, shirts, books, etc., that my wife bought. The arm is due any minute.........

Wc65mustang, Perhaps you should reveal what it is you have against Harry Weisfeld and VPI.
(Kidding, but could not resist.)

There's only so many ways someone can reinvent the wheel before people catch on. Spend your money anyway you want to but "Harry" is laughing all the way to the bank. Can you say Ka-Ching?

HW bashing is just plain silly. OK, got that out of the way.

I heard the 3D arm in a VERY fine system that I know very well. It is mounted on a Classic 4, and that rig replaced a Forsell Reference; same cartridge (Koetsu). The owner does not want to deal with the complexity of the Forsell. Obviously, it is almost impossible to seperate the sonic change wrought by the arm from that of the table; and that of the particular synergy of each pairing. Having said, here are my impressions:

Tonally, low resonant signature is most certainly a characteristic of the sound that I heard. There is a striking reduction in the audibility of those narrow (and not so narrow) frequency bands that seem highlighted in relation to the rest of the frequency spectrum, and that results in sound that seems extremely well organized tonally. Soundstaging is VERY stable and precise; and perhaps as a result of the tonal evenness and purity (maybe), the soundstage is smaller front-to-back as well as left-right with smaller individual images; but, all extremely well organized. Overall, the sound is leaner with less weight.

But, and for me, this is a big "but". While the smaller soundstage does not bother me, the tonal aspects of the new sound do to a degree. I find there to be a sameness of timbre and tonal character to every lp played, with a subtle tonal politeness that I respected but didn't excite me. I don't understand this, since reduction in resonance should allow the differences in recordings to be more obvious, not less so. Live music is not always polite, it can and should sound downright nasty sometimes. Dynamic politeness is intrinsically linked to tonal quality, and particularly in the case of a turntable where speed stability is so important. Speed stability with the Classic 3 is first rate, but in spite of this the sound, for me, did not have quite the dynamic get-up-and-go and sheer explosiveness that I remember with the Forsell. Is it the table, the arm? I don't know. Very fine sound, but once again, system context is the key. Personally, I would not assume that reducing "resonant signature" in one component will necessarily yield sound that is closer to "real" without seriously considering system context.

Hi Frogman.....Thanks for your evaluation of the 3D arm. I still have not received mine (4 weeks since I placed the order) . I am also perplexed why the same quality of sound should appear in all your recordings. It would seem that the arm, or something else would cast its resonance signature on all you're listening. If indeed the arm is not resonant, something else must be. When I get my arm, I will test its resonance.....according to Harry, it almost doesn't exist. We'll see. If your Koetsu is one of their stone bodied models....I do suppose you had the appropriate counterweight...?? The idea is to get it as close to the pivot as possible...200 grm counterweight? That one is not normally shipped with the arm. The arm comes with either Discovery or Valhalla...which one is yours, and did you give it a chance to work in.

Hi Stringreen,

The system that I heard the 3D arm in is not mine, but that of an acquaintance whose system I have heard many times. The arm cabling I believe is Discovery and it probably is not fully broken in yet; this could very well have been partly responsible for what I heard.The Koetsu is a wood bodied one. I may have overstated the issue of sameness
of sound but it was a perplexing observation. As I said, the sound was very fine, but I was comparing it to the Forsell table which is known for explosive dynamics. I would expect you will be very pleased with the arm. Keep us posted.

Stringreen, Why would you say categorically that the idea is to get the counter-wt as close as possible to the pivot? The square of its distance from the pivot affects effective mass. The stone-body Koetsu might benefit from a high effective mass. Most report that it does; for example it is said to perform wonderfully in the very heavy FR66S. Granted, for other reasons, a large pivot to counter-wt distance is not the optimal way to gain effective mass.

Lewn....When the counterweight is away from the pivot, and the arm/cartridge is negotiating a warp, the counterweight "wants to" continue in the direction it was thrown, thereby disturbing the tracking of the cartridge. When the counterweight is near the pivot point, it doesn't move as much and disturbs the cartridge much less.....letting it do its job as best as it can....making better music. The idea is to get the heaviest counterweight as close to the pivot as you can for best performance.

I can't speak to the VPI 3D arm, but regarding the counterweight issue, I agree with Stringreen. At least on my 12" SME arm, the counterweight is very heavy and is as close to the pivot as is possible with the design. My AirTight Supreme cartridge weighs 12.5 g which is the ideal weight for this arm and allows the heaviest SME counterweight to slide very close to the pivot. The cartridge was developed in part on this arm.

I believe the relevant issue is moment of inertia. The closer the counterweight is to the pivot, the less inertia and the quicker the arm can respond to movement as the stylus tracks the groove. And I presume the less the cantilever has to work to overcome the inertia of the arm, lessoning distortion as the stylus remains more in the center of the groove.

There is also the issue of resonance within the structure that supports the counterweight. If the counterweight is far from the pivot, I think the support is more likely to resonate, all else being equal.

This does not address the issue of resonance in the main armtube that was discussed up the thread, which is perhaps the main design goal of the 3D arm. It will be very interesting to see how this arm performs.

Still no review? I'm waiting on pins and needles or should I say unipivots and styli?

Harry told me my 3D was shipped to me about 4 days ago......I suspect tomorrow is the big day. I'll post when I get it.

Based on the relationship, I suspect stringeen's already written the review.

Really Judy? That the best you can do? Seems your opinion is pretty well formed. "No offense." "I'm just saying."

..just got the 3D arm....they sent me the wrong counterweight.... I have to wait
for another week or so... yuk

String...... Mike, Jack and Harry are super accommodating. I would ask one of them to do you a favor and overnight mail/deliver the correct counterweight.

Why not just supply each new arm with all of the counterweights? That way, the owner would be covered for future cartridge changes.

Peterayer....The bottom line is money. SME has a rear counterweight that actually does just what you say. You add or remove supplied lead (i think) shims to ad or remove the weight to provide the perfect rear counterweight to be as close as possible to the front fulcrum. The VPI weights are finished products of which you request the needed counterweight depending on the weight of your cartridge. I have a very heavy Benz LPS and a 200 gram weight is needed to balanced it properly. The weight that is normally supplied with the arm is 120 grams which would work with many lighter weight cartridges. One should be sure to get the proper weight for his/her particular cartridge, and not be satisfied with a rear counterweight that is too rearward to accommodate the cartridge.

Thanks Stringreen. That makes sense. I completely agree that the counterweight should ideally be as close to the pivot as possible.

Already on eBay for "only" 2 grand.

..Just to pass the time with my 3D arm, not wanting to mount the cartridge, since it is residing very safely in its wooden presentation box, I applied various tuning forks to the arm to try to excite any resonances that might be there....just couldn't find any....this arm is DEAD.

....this arm is DEAD.

Is burial an option? :-)

Just got a flier from Music Direct showing the new 3D arm at $2500.

I've been experimenting with a home 3D printer, and one of the things it does is internal object complexity. I can vary the matrix inside an object to achieve structural rigidity with low weight. I assume that with a $350,000 printer that lays down one thousandth of an inch with each pass that you can design and produce a truly elegant internal structure for managing vibration. It certainly will take a while to print an object at 0.001" per pass! I think I heard that it takes more than 20 hours per arm.

Also, any tonearm that is cobbled together from parts will have boundary effects, regardless of whether the parts are glued, bolted, welded, etc. However, a single-piece arm formed of the same material, designed carefully should be near-ideal in terms of lack of boundary reflections and introduced vibration. I wonder, as others have mentioned, whether the epoxy material employed is near-ideal. And certainly I wonder about the interface to the needle bearing of the unipivot too.

But I'm excited by the technology, and suspect that it will allow iterative development inexpensively, simply change the program a bit and the next arm will perfectly reflect the design change. I'm not sure I'd be one of the pioneers to buy it, but maybe if it gets some good reviews, I'll take a flyer.

Well done VPI!

I recently purchased a ET2 and now need to get it mounted on my VPI classic. A friend gave me the actual jig used by ET, unfortunately it is missing the bushing to drill the mounting hole. I'll take my time and get this right the first time. I hope.

Tim

Belay my last,wrong thread!

Another dud from the folks at VPI

Yawn

Judy ..., I just scanned some of your Forum posts. There's a definite negative and cynical bias in most of your responses. Assuming you are a sincere and serious hobbyist, please list your system components for member comments and reactions.

Stringreen,
Have you got the 3D up and running?

Wynne,
Concentrate on your own menial system and upgrade it as needed. There are many weak spots.
Our system isn't your business.
Thank you

I have compared the 3D armwand with the standard 10.5. Listening to Bob Dylan's Royal Albert Hall vinyl it sounded like the 3D was smoother, with less vocal sibilance.

Dnath, which version of the 10.5? 10.5, 10.5i, Classic?

Brf this was with an Aries3, so 10.5i

Keep in mind that Dylan Classic Records reissue has lots of sibilance, so it's still present even with the 3D arm.

Judy-

Why do you talk down to members here. Bifwynne asked a simple question that I would like to know the answer to as well. I'm sure stringreen will be happy to answer and tell us how the 3D arm is when he gets it up and running. Afterall, this is a forum to share our thoughts about audio products. I posted my system on virtual for everyone to see and my system is junk compared to many people here. Guess what, I don't care. I still enjoy what I can afford. There is no need to be an elitist and call people out on what they own. I'm sure everyone here wished they had $500,000 systems in a $500,000 dedicated anechoic chamber. For all I know, Somebody here actually might, LOL. I guess my point is that we all make due with what we have and use these forums as a means for friendly comparisons and evaluations of specific products. There is no need for bashing someone elses system.

For the record, Bifwynne's system is much better than mine and I am happy for him. More power to him if he spends more on audio gear than I do. It's not my business. I'm sure he is happy with his system and enjoys it very much. I know I would enjoy it.