Dear @ferrari275: """ Really? With all due respect to this person, I cannot disagree more with this post. Where to begin........................................... Both torque and power of the MK3 dc motor is measurably greater.... """ So what, each TT has its own design neccesities. """ The 10R bearing remains tiny compared to the SP10MK3’s oversized bearing, its a toothpick. ..... Again, so what? are different TT designs. """ The platter is multi layered, damped and dynamically balanced, like the Mk3, but weighs significantly less....... " and?, the new one not needs higher weigth. """ The power supply is switching type, not a proper linear power supply, which the MK3 has. """ So, for you the new unit comes with an " improper " PS? why is that.Could you explain about?. """ """ By the way, none of the stated factory specifications published by Technics thus far for the SP10R surpass the Technics Sp10MK3 technical bench specifications, nada = none. """ It does not needs to surpass it. Can you detect the differences in quality performance levels between 0.015% against 0.014% on w&f? can you detect the differences in quality level performance between -92db against -93dbs on signal to noise ratio? could you? Sir, from where took you those conclusions in your whole statements? Maybe from Chris . The Technics pedigree not only did not changed but up graded from 1981 ( that was the year the MK3 was realeased. ) to this 21 century. Sir, today is April of 2018 not 1984 or 1990. Got it? Btw, this is what Technics has to say about: "
the SP-10R. The new turntable combines Technics’ most advanced digital and analogue technologies, boasting the most impressive Sound to Noise (S/N)* ratio, rotational stability and flutter, and wow ratio of any of its turntables. The exceptional SP-10R prototype features a new coreless direct drive motor and 7kg heavy platter, for outstanding audio quality. Reference Class Turntable Promising Outstanding Results The SP-10R features a brand new, coreless direct drive motor which, in addition to the two-sided rotor drive system that was used in the SL-1200G, boasts stator coils on both sides of the rotor, for a more powerful and accurate sound. The heavy platter features a three-layer structure consisting of brass, aluminum die-cast and deadening rubber, just like the platter of the SL-1200G. By optimising the natural frequency of each layer, external vibrations are thoroughly suppressed resulting in a beautifully clear and crisp audio experience. The SP-10R also features a new ultra-low-noise switching power supply, which, compared to a power supply unit using a transformer, is better at suppressing unwanted humming sounds and vibrations. The power supply unit is separate from the main turntable, preventing unwelcome noise from being transmitted to the turntable unit, for a sharper and clearer sound. Introduction to the Market Technics is working diligently towards an anticipated early summer launch for the SP-10R, and the new turntable will be interchangeable with systems using the SP10MK2** (released in 1975) and the SP-10MK3 (1981) – the two predecessors which have been highly evaluated by professional broadcasting stations and are still very much admired and used by many audiophiles world-wide. Technics also plans to market a complete turntable system based on SP-10R with a tonearm and other components. – ENDS – """
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
I do not like "switching" power supplies, switchnig are good for playstation or others commercial products, I have a feeling that they inject more spurious than quality, but mine are just ideas not substantiated by concrete facts.
If the engineers of Matsushita have decided for this type of power will have their good reasons, I do not think it’s just for greater material savings = greater gain .... in hi-end products is not tolerated to reason to economize.
If we analyze other examples, Linn in 1998 put on the market the CD 12 top-of-the-line player, which cost thousands and thousand of dollars and had "switching" power supply inside; in 2018 Naim produces separate power supplies with traditional components to make up-grading of its products from the cost even in these cases of thousands of dollars.
Every IHMO manufacturer has its own thinking on how to make the power supplies .... buyers should think only to hear and understand if improvements over old machines are audible instead of worrying about the technical performances.
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I think we've had this discussion of switching PSs before on this thread, but maybe not. Anyway, at that time I also pointed out that David Berning, the designer of Berning amplification products, has been using switching power supplies at least in his (tube) amplifiers for many years, certainly more than a decade. Meantime, his products are much admired and not inexpensive. So far as I know, no reviewer or end user has ever complained about switching noise or anything of that sort. I have used (briefly) two of his ZH270 amplifiers in mono configuration to drive my Sound Lab speakers and detected no problem related to PSs. Keep in mind that DB is a brilliant fellow and an innovative engineer; not all switching power supplies are created equal. So-called linear power supplies can also be crappy if badly implemented. |
Dear @best-groove: """
If the engineers of Matsushita have decided for this type of power will have their good reasons, I do not think it’s just for greater material savings...."""
agree with you and agree with @lewm too and additional makes no sense that a good switching power supply design can introduce any kind of " distortion " when the cartridge signal never and can't pass trhough it.
Yes, we are talking of Matushita group !.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Just get a belt driven SME Model 20. It sounds better than any of these. And it's built better.
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So surprised to learn here that you love SME turntables, Invictus. Not. Will the SME 20 also take out my appendix? Can I go to it for advice on investments? Does it do dishes? I figured your posting here on a belt-drive turntable must be your idea of a joke, so I hope you can take a joke, too. |
Does it really matter. All our tables in 20 years will be worthless as nobody will be buying any physical media or players.
Streaming will rule world.
Lets enjoy our tables while we are still alive and kicking |
Dear @downunder : You are SPOT ON ! !.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
downunder
All our tables in 20 years will be worthless as nobody will be buying any physical media or players. Not likely. Television didn't render radio obsolete. The automobile didn't eliminate the horse industry. The ballpoint pen hasn't stopped production of fountain pens. |
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@downunder Does it really matter. All our tables in 20 years will be worthless as nobody will be buying any physical media or players. Oh, i’m waiting for this to buy all my favorite records from the 60s and 70s for $1-5 like it was in the 90s when majority of people believed in CD format. Only 10-15 years later the price for rare vinyl increased to the stratosphere, some of those records now cost hundreds and thousands dollars even in VG condition. Dealers, who 's bought warehouses full of records at that time, now are millionaires. |
Not likely. Television didn't render radio obsolete. The automobile didn't
eliminate the horse industry. The ballpoint pen hasn't stopped production of fountain pens. LOL. what has television got to do with music? last I looked, not many horses and carriages carting people to work and back. Fountain pens are some stupid expensive luxury item these days. Not many 8 tracks, 78's, minidisc's, DAT or cassettes sold these days. CD is obsolete as well as vinyl - at least vinyl sounds great. Who is going to buy vinyl and turntables after you and the rest of us are 6 feet under? 99.99% of the population will be Streaming. |
Dear @downunder : Never mind, those gentlemans always live and will live thinking nopthing change. Audio ignorance only.
Regards and enjoy the MUASIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Hi,
can anyone tell me if the TT81 engine and support is exactly the same as the TT-101 engine?
Would it be possible to replace one another?
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I’m still chewing on the idea that the automobile did not eliminate the horse industry. I say “chewing”, because during my recent visit to Tokyo, I noticed that horse meat was on the menu In at least one restaurant. Let’s be honest, the automobile certainly did displace the horse as a major mode of transportation.
Halcro would be in the best position to answer the question about the TT 81 versus the TT 101. Every time I read about it, the newest info changes whatever was my preconceived notion. I think the motors may be the same per se, but the electronics are different. Or vice versa.
Shane, all I care is about it is even if my LP collection is worth zero, my family will get by financially without me.
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@lewm
I could only find the engine of a TT-81 but I do not want to throw money to the wind if I do not have the real certainty that it is compatible!
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My advice would be to wait for one of the other guys to answer your question with some degree of certainty. Are you saying that you may replace the motor of a TT 101 with that from a TT81? Or what is it that you want to be “compatible”? |
Are you saying that you may replace the motor of a TT 101 with that from a TT81? Yeeees.... but only if it were exactly the same! |
Whilst the dimensions of the enclosing cage are identical.....to think that the TT-81 is in any way 'identical' to the TT-101 is a mistake...👅 |
Halcro, As I recall there were back and forth arguments as to whether the TT81, like the TT101, had a coreless motor. I thought that question was finally answered in the affirmative. If so, are you saying that the coreless motor in the TT81 is not identical to the one used in the TT101? Because, if the motors are idenical, I would guess that it is the electronics that differentiate the two, most of all, and it is not inconceivable that a motor from a TT81 could be incorporated into a TT101, resulting in a feaux TT101. Which I think is the question here. |
Lewm, whilst the TT-81 has the identical positive and negative speed control in the servo detector......it does not have the coreless motor of the TT-101.
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then 2 similar but incompatible engines for easy organ transplantation.......
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bestie, I think Halcro's response means you should not attempt a transplant. It would be like putting a pig heart (or an "Abbie Normal" brain*) into a human, a willing substitute but not up to the job.
(*See the movie, "Young Frankenstein".) |
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(*See the movie, "Young Frankenstein".)
ha ha haaa lol :) |
Best Grove
Are you looking for a TT101 to use for parts for your TT101 - the motor in mine is working fine the control system still have some issues that I have not had the time to sort out - probably won't for quite some time - make me an offer.
Thanks
Peter |
I neglected to note that the monster got the girl in "Young Frankenstein", not because of his superior intellect, if you know what I mean. Dr. Frankenstein did OK, too, with his nurse assistant. |
lew, that’s my favorite Brooks film. I’ve seen it several times and still chuckle with each viewing.
My most quoted line, "Could be worst, could be raining." But there are almost too many to count. |
@pbnaudio Thank you for your offer, we could write in private but I'm not able to make the most of this forum I can try to search in some way your mail :) |
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Well, I foolishly purchased a broken Dual 701 off of eBay Friday. I'll put it in the stack of projects to modify. That is, if I can get it working?
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For those of us who are not Dual cognoscenti, what is a Dual 701? I guess we should assume it's DD. Dual pioneered the coreless motor. In fact, most coreless TT motors in use even up to today (Brinkmann) are naught but developments on the Dual motor. Does the 701 contain such a coreless motor? |
According to Vinyl Engine the Dual 701 is one of the rarer and nicest Dual decks out there.
Uses a " low torque direct drive motor"
Appears to have an enthusiastic following. |
Good evening group.
i just inherited a JVC QL-10 with Lustre GST-801 from my uncle who passed away.
He bought it brand new in lates 70s.
I would say it hasn’t been turned on in the last 15 years.
i brought it home, cleaned it up and tried it.
it locked on 33.33 for about 5 minutes and then it sped all the way up to about 67.34 rpm.
33 and 45 run at that speed and then I can see it slows down and goes back up.
I opened it up and out of my league.
i can do some things, but this one looks scary.
is there a place where I can send it?
How much could I be looking at to have it fixed?
Thank you! |
Pablo, You wrote, "I would say it hasn’t been turned on in the last 15 years." There's one clue to a possible problem. The electrolytic capacitors do not like to get old, but more than that they do not like to sit on a shelf with no voltage across them for 15 years. At the very least, you should have brought up the voltage on your motor gradually, using a Variac. This can allow the electrolytics to re-form and possibly save the bacon. At this point, I doubt that a Variac would help, because the damage may already have been done. I would suggest you unplug it and then have a pro replace all the electrolytics, just to begin with. Other guys here do not like me to preach this particular gospel (replace old 'lytics with new after acquiring an aged DD turntable), but even most of them would have to agree that this should be done in your case where you know the history of disuse, before you blow up more unobtainable parts. The 'lytics are dirt cheap. The integrated circuits needed to make the tt run correctly are very difficult to source, if not impossible. |
Lewm, thank you for the quick response.
So every capacitor should be replaced on every board?
some of them are pretty tiny.
I see a few big ones by the power supply.
i have replaced caps in the past, but they were much bigger and it was on my amp.
When I took the TT-101 apart, it really scare me, everting seems so tight and there are wires everywhere!
I’m used to seeing amps, which are much neater inside.
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Of course you can check each electrolytic for its integrity, before replacing it, and thereby save some cost and bother. But also you need not replace film capacitors. As a rule, they last virtually forever, if the unit has been stored at a reasonable temperature and humidity. If you read elsewhere in this thread, you will see other problems that commonly arise especially with the solder joints and especially with the printed circuit boards used in the TT 101 which are known to be hygroscopic. And to be fragile.
But if you first replace the major electrolytic’s and see what you’ve got, then you can assess what other problems may apply. Also in my first post I neglected a very important point. Most TT101s were built for 100VAC. If you plugged yours into 120VAC that too might cause the failure mode you observed. You’ll need a step down transformer before you go further, if you haven’t already got one.
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Look near the AC cord outlet to find the recommended AC voltage. |
Yes, 120v 60hz 23W.
I used contact cleaner on each pot, moved them back and forth and set them back to where they were.
it did not take care of the problem.
the motor seems to speed up to top speed and then come down to almost a stop.
the digital display does not change because it seems that it’s taking an average.
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There's simply no way the calibration survived that. Barely nudging those pots drastically affects the circuit, and in the drive circuit they all interact. The mechanically tolerance affects the setting, so aligning witness marks won't work. Best rule of thumb on quartz/PLL DD circuits: don't touch the pots unless you can recalibrate yourself, or have it done.
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Under the platter, you will find a rocker switch labeled “run” or “hold”. In the run mode the tachometer will display the RPM from zero to the set value. For example if you are set to 33.33, then the tachometer will read from 0 to 33.33 over and over again. This can be very distracting. Maybe that’s what you are looking at. Check that switch under the platter. Set it to hold and you will see a static display of the RPM. At least you should see that. If you see anything else, that is an indicator of a problem. Also, I would point out, with all due respect, that cleaning the contacts is not tantamount to changing all the electrolytic capacitors. Without meaning to sound dour, the more you power up the unit without having identified the problem, the greater is the possibility that one of the hard to find ICs is suffering a fatal calamity. |
Question for all you vintage DD experts out there.
I have just acquired a Technics sl10 linear tracker which looks to be fully functional and in good shape.
My question is concerning the RCA out.
It looks like it has a built in phono amp as the little button next to the RCA outs says mm/mc.
Does this mean it cannot be used through a phono amp as there does not appear to be a bypass to this , just choice of mm or mc.
Thank you |
I definitely made things worst for my self.
and probably added more to a repair bill for moving those pots.
I hear that calibration cost $1000 for this QL-10? and I’m guessing that doesn’t include redoing the caps??
i wanted to fix it since it was my uncles.
worst come to worst, can I get a ql7 platter and still use my plinth and arm?
Thanks everyone for the responses. |
It looks like it has a built in phono amp as the little button next to the RCA outs says mm/mc.
Does this mean it cannot be used through a phono amp as there does not appear to be a bypass to this , just choice of mm or mc. I think it's only a gain-stage for the MC to boost the low output — there's no RIAA eq. So it can go into your phono preamp. |
Pablo, I don't know where you "heard" that calibration of a QL-10 would necessarily cost $1000. I believe that some time ago on this thread, JP Jones remarked that he could not hope to repair a malfunctioning unit for less than $1000. That's a far cry from saying that it takes a kilobuck just to do calibration. If the unit is functioning properly, a knowledgeable person, e.g., JP, could probably do the calibration for much less cost. When the TT-101 is "broken", it is a real can of worms, which made JP's off the cuff estimate of $1000 seem fairly reasonable. JP can comment if I am way off base, or not. |
Lewm. Yes the 701 has the EDS-1000 brushless coreless motor. The hall-effect electronic drive motor
operates independently of AC line frequency and voltage fluctuations, so
the 701 platter speed never fluctuates. An entirely different kind of
motor, designed expressly for the 701, and a very innovative approach to
the problem of resonance. Instead of the familiar, high speed AC motor,
the 701 has an all electronic, low speed motor, with
feedback-controlled speed precision. Because this motor rotates at the
record speed, 33 1/3 or 45rpm, the need for speed reduction systems such
as friction idler or rim belt is eliminated. Instead, the platter is
rotated directly by the motor, and the record spindle is the top of the
motor shaft. The 701 motor is so quiet and free from vibration that it
does not require any isolation mounting, but is mounted directly to the
chassis. ORIGINAL DUAL 701 FACTORY SPECIFICATIONS: Motor: Electronically Servo Driven Wow and flutter: < 0.03% Rumble: Unweighted: > 50dB; Weighted: > 70d https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=28237.msg380130#msg380130http://unepassionaudiophile.fr/platine-base-dual-eds-1000/https://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/701.shtmlhttps://www.vintageshifi.com/repertoire-pdf/Dual.php |
@lewm the actual calibration takes me about an hour all-in these days. Repairs, done right, are where the cost is. |
News about my two Victor TT-101 that i bought in 2017.
1) I have reported earlier in this thread that first of them purchased from the original owner as "working" appeared to be defective on the first test on arrival. We discussed the issue here few years ago. I gave up on expensive service abroad with expensive shipping, and could not find anyone locally to take a risk on repair. So i put this unit aside in my living room and it was there from the summer 2017 til the summer 2019. When tried it again in 2019 it was WORKING! Magic? I did nothing, but i think a constant temperature in my room and good energy somehow cured my TT-101. I tried it several times on 33/45 with pitch up and down and it's just fine, it was constantly on for 48hrs in each session many times. And i can't detect a problem i saw on arrival 3 years ago. Maybe it was just a stress after transportation, maybe it was stored for some time by original owner in his basement, who knows. But stayin' unplugged in my room for 2 years years something happened and i think it's because of the right temperature in the room.
This unit is quiet, easily working for 3 days non stop and right now still spinning.
I think it's a good sign, so i ordered a plinth for this turntable.
2) I also mentioned another sample that i bought later, i thought i'm bought my second sample for parts as a donor. The unit i bought was described as defective from the start. I also mentioned this problem before in this thread. The situation with this 2nd sample was different that with my 1st sample. When i got the unit it was working on arrival, but i had to touch the platter by hand on the start. Then rotation was stable for a long time, i think i already tested the unit for a few nights nonstop in 2017. Anyway i put it aside next to my 1st unit and it was in my room for more than 2 years.
Last week a friend asked me to sell him one of my Victor TT-101, i replied that i will check both and i did. I forgot which one is 1st and which one is 2nd, because visually they are identical and looks MINT-
Now i figured out which one is 1st and which one is 2nd after investigation of my old invoices etc.
I've noticed common problem for some vintage direct drive i've bought last year (Denon DP-80 and Technics SP-20). Nothing serious and very easy to fix, but on the first test looks like disaster. The motor under the platter on Denon DP80 and Technics SP20 is fixed by several screws, sometimes they are not screwed properly or simly a bit loose (because the turntables are 40 y.o.). When those screws are loose the motor and spindle can be off-centered and as a result the platter is off-centered too. When the platter is slightly off-centered the edge of the platter can grind the edge of the turntable body. As i said it is very easy to fix, all you need is to loose the screws, turn the platter on, check the position, the remove it and fix the screws on the motor.
This is why my 2nd Victor could not start without a touch of my hand. When i removed the platter to fix the screws i realised it was a bit off-centered, so i fixed it and problem gone. Turntable start spinning when i just press the start button. The problem is gone!
BOTH SAMPLE WORKING!
BOTH TT-101 ARE FINE NOW, FINGERS CROSSED.
The minor difference between my 1st and 2nd units is:
-when my ear is near turntable i can barely hear pulsation coming from the electronics inside the TT-101, but only when 33 or 45 rotation is "on". When my TT-101 is in standby mode i can rotate the platter manually and there is no sound, so this is not mechanical sound, it is a very very low level pulsation from the electronics. Not sure what it is?
Another sample is dead quiet, nothing like that. But i think stop button must be calibrated, it works fine, but after the platter stopped there is a backward move, very little. For example i've seen it before on Technics SL1200mk2 and it was fully adjustable, it is a function of "stop" (slow stop of the platter, or immediate stop with a tiny final move backwards). Not a dig deal i guess.
I have that huge service manual and to my surprise TT-101 motor does not require lubrication !
I know that TT-101 can be calibrated according to the service manual.
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Platter continuing to rotate after you press the stop button is associated with calibration. A well calibrated turntable should stop pretty much dead when you press the stop button. But my TT101, which was calibrated by JP and works wonderfully, also moves an inch or two more after I press the stop button with an LP on the platter and a heavier than normal turntable mat (SAEC SS300) . I decided not to worry about this, because of the extra mass. If JP is anywhere around, perhaps he will comment.
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