Perhaps there was something wrong already with the TT-101 and the power outage finished it off? This could account for the difference in sound.
Vintage DD turntables. Are we living dangerously?
I have just acquired a 32 year old JVC/Victor TT-101 DD turntable after having its lesser brother, the TT-81 for the last year.
TT-101
This is one of the great DD designs made at a time when the giant Japanese electronics companies like Technics, Denon, JVC/Victor and Pioneer could pour millions of dollars into 'flagship' models to 'enhance' their lower range models which often sold in the millions.
Because of their complexity however.......if they malfunction.....parts are 'unobtanium'....and they often cannot be repaired.
TT-101
This is one of the great DD designs made at a time when the giant Japanese electronics companies like Technics, Denon, JVC/Victor and Pioneer could pour millions of dollars into 'flagship' models to 'enhance' their lower range models which often sold in the millions.
Because of their complexity however.......if they malfunction.....parts are 'unobtanium'....and they often cannot be repaired.
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Perhaps you would be better off with one of these halcro? https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/493608538/love-the-worlds-first-intelligent-turntable |
I read in the TT101 service manual that it do not need maintenance and engine lubrication but I believe little. All turntables and those who have many many years of life need cleaning pin and lubrication with oil and perhaps thrust pad as for Technics SP 10 MK None of you have ever done this to her TT 101? |
Halcro, I am not sure what you are reporting. Do you perceive that your TT81 outperforms the TT101, compared even to how the TT101 sounded before the power outage? Or are you saying that this observation is in relation to how the TT101 performed AFTER the power outage? Were you able to ascertain the cause of the momentary loss of power on your street? Assuming this was not the moment when Trump hung up on your Prime Minister (a moment of which I am thoroughly ashamed and disgusted), perhaps it was a lightning strike. Lightning is at millions of volts and can, for a brief instant, get by just about any power conditioner or filter. Perhaps, if the TT101 power supply was thus damaged, this could account for your perception. You may want to check or have someone else check the rectifiers and the filter capacitors in the TT101 Power Supply. For that matter, damage may also have been done to the downstream circuitry. Have you ever changed the bearing lube in your TT101 (or TT81)? Yes, Victor wrote that the bearing never needs service, but as we've said before, "never" has a new definition at the 35-year mark in age. I changed my lube to Redball 0W20 motor oil, and I like the result. I suppose a given TT81 could outperform (in terms of human perception) a TT101, but in principle a coreless motor is just better for turntables, in my opinion. |
Thanks for the comments guys..... Makes sense that the performance of the TT-101 was deteriorating BEFORE the outage....and that was the 'coup-de-gras' 🙈 Will be interesting to compare the two when I get it back. Yes totem.....my Tech has fully serviced the 101 two or three times previously but no lubrication or dismantling of the bearing. It seems fine and spins freely for endless minutes when turned without power. No storm or lightning Lew, when the power went.....and the Donald didn't cause it 👅 I know your preference has always been for coreless motors.....but I thought the SP-10 Mk3 is NOT.....? |
No, SP10 Mk3 is not coreless. It's a massive 24-pole motor. I never heard any "problem" with it, but it definitely sounds more coherent, musical, or smooth (pick your adjective) after having undergone the Krebs mod, which is directed at the tendency of the rotor/stator structure to rotate counter to the direction of the application of torque (Newton's 3rd Law), which in turn causes the servo to make more frequent minute speed corrections than is necessary and maybe that introduces a tiny bit of roughness or edginess to the sound that is effectively ameliorated by whatever Richard has invented. (It's a state secret.) The Krebs Mk3 is by far the best of the iron pole motors I have heard in this system and probably edges out the others as well, if I were ever to do a really intense comparison. JP Jones has a further upgrade for the electronics of the MK3 that I plan to have him do on mine. (Fidelis Analog, on the internet) Your TT101 may need to be properly calibrated. JP, who also fixed my TT101, raising it up from doorstop to turntable, says that calibrating the TT101 is a bit tricky. I think it's fair to say that he would say most vintage direct-drives still in use are not working as well as they could, because of lack of proper calibration of the drive electronics. Just a thought. |
As soon as I finish restoring a pair of 10-SP II I will pass to the restoration of a TT101 does not work, is completely broken and given to me for free. So I’ll have to completely take it apart piece by piece and I can see and understand what the state is spindle and thrust pad. You will need a major revision to electronics, I hope they are not IC failures. |
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Downunder, My Mk3 is mounted in a 70-lb slate slab, 2.5 inches thick. The slab is mated to a solid cherry base that is about the same size as the slate. I epoxy'd some threaded inserts into the slate and bolted the wood base into those, for good Constrained Layer Damping. Then I made some slate armboards for this plinth. The 10.5-inch Reed 2A tonearm (Red Cedar wand) is mounted on a slate arm board which is also bolted into the slate slab. The whole thing probably weighs about 100 lbs. In order to maneuver it so I could get some home -made footers under it (and some Stillpoints), I placed a deflated inner tube under the plinth and then inflated it, so as to raise up the structure. Lifting it and then simultaneously putting something under it was a non-starter. It sits atop an Adona rack. I use a Boston Audio Mat2. There may or may not be a photo on my system site. Sorry about mis-counting the poles on a Mk3 motor. I was going on memory, as I was not about to take the platter off just to count the poles. |
Forgot to mention that I built a bearing damper exactly like Albert Porter's idea, into the cherry base of the above plinth. Albert uses a block of iron. I am leery of putting that much iron near the motor's rotor, which in the Mk3 is a gigantic circular magnet bolted onto the underside of the platter. So I used a brass block of similar dimensions and mass. A threaded brass rod perforates the brass block and makes contact at its upper end with the bearing housing. Albert uses this idea in his Panzerholz plinths, assuming he still makes them. I just snug the brass rod up against the bearing assembly; not too tight, just snug. |
The Mk3 is king of pace and rhythm, not at the expense of sounding too "tight", for want of a better word. Originally, without the Krebs mod, I would say it did sound a little tight, compared to the L07D. Someone else might prefer the more languid sound of the L07D, and I certainly like that, too. I recently mounted a ZYX Universe cartridge on the Reed, purchased from one of our brethren here. I was primed to love the Universe, based on hearing it at the home of my neighbor up the street, who has since moved on to a Universe Premium (or whatever they call the 3rd generation of the Uni). I thought then that it was the best MC I had ever heard. (He was using a Galibier turntable with a Talea 2 tonearm back then, now uses a Telos.) I am loving the UNI on the Mk3, too. Yes, there are two crazy audiophiles within less than a quarter of a mile of each other on my block. |
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Cool Lew perhaps lanquid is not what you implying as the Lo7D sound :-) Definition of languid 1 : drooping or flagging from or as if from exhaustion : weak arms too languid with happiness to embrace him — John Galsworthy 2 : sluggish in character or disposition : listless proceeded at a languid pace 3 : lacking force or quickness of movement : here is a reasonably priced Mk3 with plinth - at lease compared to Artisan Fidelity OTT pricing. https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/title-to-be-added/buy-and-sell-equipment-and-music/49679-technics... |
I’ll take "...languid with happiness" from your dictionary. I love the L07D. Note that I wrote "more languid", compared to the Mk3, which is anything but languid. I was also trying to stay away from saying the L07D was "more musical". Before the Krebs mod to the Mk3, I might have said that. Language is always a major limitation in trying to verbalize the amazingly sensitive discriminatory powers of the ear/brain. |
Hi Henry. No. That is a lot more expensive, has been modified and is in the US, so freight would be a killer. That was mpre a post for any potential US buyers. I am getting one locally, well from Perth. The guy had 3, and wanted to go down to 2. An opportunity I could not pass. Yea, I think I am going to have to sell the Exclusive P10 soon as I don't have anymore space left on the cabinet. |
Shane, Always willing to take the P3 off your hands.... (To answer Henry's question, a man always needs "one more" turntable.) Henry, I am loving the ZYX UNI on the above described Mk3. All my LPs sound better than ever. Did you ever audition the UNI II or the latest new version of the UNI? My prior favorable experience with the UNI was with the original version, which led me to be interested in yours. I was not prepared to buy into the idea that newer versions are necessarily better. In particular, the latest one I think has a carbon fiber (or some such) cantilever, which could not possibly have the same sonic flavor as did the original. |
Dear @d: IF your Pioneer is a stock P3a then outperforms a stock SP10MK3. One of the " wow " SP10MK3 specs is the ruble figure/S/N that is 92db DIN B where in the P3a is 95db DIN B. Could be nice to compare both units in refurbished status or even as a stock units. Pioneer has nothing to envy from >Technics other that not been part of the Matushita gigant Japanese group. Btw, the EPC 100CMK4 is matched on heaven with the EPA 100MK2. Have fun. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS, R. |
Glad you like the UNI Lew... That one was my third after I wore out the first one nine years ago. At that stage I was a one-turntable/one-cartridge man and wanted to ensure I had continued listening-enjoyment for the years ahead....😎 With iover 40 cartridges now, I can't see me wearing ANY of them out.... I haven't heard the UNI II or Suoreme or whatever they call their latest and greatest.... From the reports I have read...they seem to be even better, but then again....if one is prepared to pay the prices for these....one would expect to hear an improvement 😝 |
Raul, I think JP already pointed out to you that it is folly to judge any two closely matched turntables in general by factory published specifications, because we don't know how the measurements were made. In particular, we do know that the P3a specs were determined after there was a revision in the methods for measuring S/N that made everything look better (quieter by I think about 3db) than it did before the change in methodology. On the other hand, I do agree with you; the P3 or P3a may well be superior to the Mk3, but not based on the differences in factory published specifications. However, I would posit that the Mk3 offers more possibilities for upgrades that might bridge any gap between it and the P3, because of its more modular construction. I don't deny that I would like to own a P3, in order to hear it for myself in my system and decide for myself where it stands in the pantheon of high end DD turntables. I suspect its plinth is not up to modern standards, although everything else about it apparently is. Of course, this is coming from an uninformed philistine who cannot tell music from distortions. |
Shane, Yes, I am aware of its internal construction. Just wondering whether the wood outer "box" that serves only as a cosmetic shroud might resonate a bit. (Even if so, I imagine you could just remove it entirely.) Also, I gather from a person who lived in Tokyo and owned two P3s at one point that it is a good idea to get the suspension serviced by a Pioneer authorized technician. War of the coreless motors: P3 vs GT2000X vs L07D. My money is on Godzilla. |
Dear @lewm : In those old times specs was everything for Japanese audiophiles. All the great and top DD turntables were designed and builded in the same time ( earlier 80’s. ) and were manufactured in specific for the Japanese market not for Europe, USA, Asia or México. In that market Denon ( Dp-100 ) , Kenwood, Onkyo, Yamaha, Technics, Pionner/Exclusive and even Sony competed with " ferocity " for the customers. Specs coming with the same standards, no differences on that. The Exclusive Pioneer’s line was not on ly for TT or tonearms but for electronics and speakers too. As a fact in the Japanese market existed very top high end audio items that we just can’t imagine and unfortunatelly never seen out of Japan. Time latter TT’s were offered to the world. Btw, yes I know that you can’t tell music fromsome distortions but I know you are improving about your self when not many gentlemans not even know how to do it. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS, R. http://audio-database.com/PIONEER-EXCLUSIVE/player/p3a-e.html |
Hey Lew My audio buddy who was living in Japan who got me my P3 had looked at removing the wood plinth, bit it was more difficult than thought. The on/off, speed and power buttons are part of the wood plinth build. Personally, I would love to do it as it looks just as cool naked. My P3 was fully service by Pioneer Japan before I got it in 2009. Its nothing like the LP12 suspension, its very stiff and does not go off. |
Shane, I was wondering about those buttons, if one were to remove the wood casing. You could probably make some sort of rigid platform to re-mount them in place of the wood. To say that the P3 suspension, which looks like that of a modern sports car in terms of complexity, is not like an LP12 suspension, is pretty much like saying that a modern sports car suspension is more sophisticated than that of a Model T Ford. It's no contest. |
yes Lew - the p3 suspension is a little more complex than the Lp12 and works very well. there is a DP100 for sale as we speak. only 24K :-) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Denon-DP-100M-Direct-Drive-Turntable-with-DK-1000-Plinth-/252852302833?... |
Thuchan has the Denon DP100M https://audiocirc.com/2015/04/15/denon-100m/ but is in the process of selling it....🤔 He's not a huge DD fan and may even sell his Victor TT-101...😱 |
Thuchan has the Denon DP100MHalcro - The first owner of my Final Audio Research VTT1 turntable (thread drive, high mass design) had the Denon DP100M side by side with a variety of cartridges including the Sony XL88D, Denon DL1000 etc. The DP100 direct drive had a lack of focus, shallow soundstage, mild attack, overly delicate transients and compressed dynamic range compared to the Final. The original owner of my Final Audio Research VTT1, Warwick Mickell, was a contributor for the Absolute Sound in the 80’s and had access to all the top equipment as he was resident in Japan through those years. Do you know how Thucan found the sound compared to his other TT's ? |
Dover- without him actually saying it....I don't think Thuchan is that impressed with the DP100M. I DO know that it doesn't get much listening time amongst his enviable collection, so your description of its sound is believable....although I wouldn't necessarily use those two cartridges as a gauge. I have them both...😎 |
Shane-rather than buying the Denon....I'd be more tempted to buy his TT-101 as a backup to mine. Knowing how thoroughly and beautifully re-built his Victor is...I suspect it may be the best TT-101 in existence...?🤗 Any news on your SP10Mk3? Will be interesting to hear how it shapes up against the P3? My money's on the Pioneer....😘 |
Hey Henry it should be here on Wednesday, so should be able to play over Easter. Its the full SL-1000MK3D. This is the model with the P mount tonearm. I will first use it with the EPC-P100C-MK4 Cartridge. Later I am going to use my Thales tonearm with it. I have a NOS Technics arm board, however I have a another arm board coming in from the USA so I practice on that one first setting up the Thales. so direct stk technics vs P3 will be difficult. cheers |
The DP100 direct drive had a lack of focus, shallow soundstage, mild attack, overly delicate transients and compressed dynamic range compared to the Final. Hi Dover, if that is true, and the DP100M is in the same league as the SP10MK3, P3a etc., then the Final must be one very special turntable! I have never auditioned the DP100M, but have done so with the SP10MK3 and P3a, “lack of focus, shallow soundstage, mild attack, overly delicate transients and compressed dynamic range” are probably the last things I would say about these turntables, at least when auditioned on their own and not comparing to the Final. Would love to audition the Final one day! |
Thekong, You wrote, ..."if that is true, and the DP100M is in the same league as the SP10MK3, P3a etc.," That's one of the biggest "ifs" I have seen on this thread. First of all, Dover does not say what tonearm and cartridge were used to make the comparison of the DP100M to the Final. Second, with all due respect to Dover, he is passionately in love with his Final (which is fine with me), but he does tend to try to prove its wonderfulness by verbal argument (which is hearsay evidence at best, IMO). And third, I certainly don't think any of the aforementioned direct drive turntables is perfect, but, as you said too, these particular criticisms would not seem to apply to well set-up, properly restored and calibrated examples of the breed, no matter what. In fact, it's almost a list of why I prefer DD turntables I have kept in my system to belt-drive turntables I have tried and rejected. On the other hand, Dover is the only person I know who has ever had a Final tt in his system; we cannot really know how a Final would stack up. In sum, we don't have enough data to agree or disagree with Dover. I personally do not at all care for the Denon DA307 tonearm, as supplied with the DP80 turntable. I don't know what tonearm is supplied on the DP100M, but if it is close cousin to the DA307, all bets are off. Lack of focus and compressed dynamic range are, IMO, possible descriptions of the DA307. |
Shane-rather than buying the Denon....I'd be more tempted to buy his TT-101 as a backup to mine. Knowing how thoroughly and beautifully re-built his Victor is...I suspect it may be the best TT-101 in existence...?🤗 You write this because you have concrete evidence to believe is the best, or are mere assumptions? |
Dear @lewm : The 100M comes with its own tonearm that was designed in specific for the DP-100, so you can't mount it in the Final and I agree with halcro that those two cartridges that dover name it are not good enough ( I owned both and for good reasons I don't have it any more. ). Not even we know the electronics and speakers and that gentleman MUSIC/sound priorities. That he was a TAS reviewer means almost that but nothing more and certainly not a guarantee about. I think that as good as it's the P3a the DP 100M is a must to have too. I had the opportunity to listen it when was marketed in USA through the Laredo Denon distributor that was a very entushiast audiophile. Unfortunatelly was mto high of price for me but always like me as a very top contender against anything down there. The Denon motor is truly special as no other because they took the same Denon cutting lathe motor they manufactured/marketed in those times. @halcro , IMHO it does not matters what you can do in a TT-101 always will be an inferior unit to the stock DP-100. Thinking in different way can be only a misunderstood of what we are talking about. Maybe what some of you don't like on this Denon is that it's not much you can do to " play " with up-dates. Btw, this is what tuchan posted about his unit: """ what I can say is the 100M with its surprisingly good arm provides an absolutely stunning sound. I will build an extra arm pod ..... """ Btw, the real " deal " for all those old times about the Final TT was that through its power supply it develops its own electrical needs and is not disturbed by the normal imperfections of a home electrical source. That's all. In the other side, it's really a hard task to say which DD TTs between the P3a, LO70D or Denonn DP100 is really better. We have to have the same tonearm/cartridge in all of them to compare it and maybe what we will found out is that only performs a little different but not better one of the other. Who really knows? What's clear for me is that we can't go wrong with either unit and no a vintage or today BD unit can't compete with. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS, R. |
