Vintage DD turntables. Are we living dangerously?

Shane-rather than buying the Denon....I'd be more tempted to buy his TT-101 as a backup to mine. Knowing how thoroughly and beautifully re-built his Victor is...I suspect it may be the best TT-101 in existence...?🤗

Any news on your SP10Mk3?
Will be interesting to hear how it shapes up against the P3?
My money's on the Pioneer....😘

Dover- without him actually saying it....I don't think Thuchan is that impressed with the DP100M.
I DO know that it doesn't get much listening time amongst his enviable collection, so your description of its sound is believable....although I wouldn't necessarily use those two cartridges as a gauge.
I have them both...😎

Thuchan has the Denon DP100M
https://audiocirc.com/2015/04/15/denon-100m/
but is in the process of selling it....🤔
He’s not a huge DD fan and may even sell his Victor TT-101...😱

Halcro - The first owner of my Final Audio Research VTT1 turntable (thread drive, high mass design) had the Denon DP100M side by side with a variety of cartridges including the Sony XL88D, Denon DL1000 etc. The DP100 direct drive had a lack of focus, shallow soundstage, mild attack, overly delicate transients and compressed dynamic range compared to the Final. The original owner of my Final Audio Research VTT1, Warwick Mickell, was a contributor for the Absolute Sound in the 80’s and had access to all the top equipment as he was resident in Japan through those years. Do you know how Thucan found the sound compared to his other TT's  ?

Hi Henry

very nice DP100M.     Buy it off him :-)

Thuchan has the Denon DP100M
https://audiocirc.com/2015/04/15/denon-100m/
but is in the process of selling it....🤔
He's not a huge DD fan and may even sell his Victor TT-101...😱

yes Lew - the p3 suspension is a little more complex than the Lp12 and works very well.

there is a DP100 for sale as we speak. only 24K :-)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Denon-DP-100M-Direct-Drive-Turntable-with-DK-1000-Plinth-/252852302833?...

lewm

To say that the P3 suspension, which looks like that of a modern sports car in terms of complexity, is not like an LP12 suspension,

First thing the P3's suspension reminded me of was the 
Denon DP100. 
A member was recently rebuilding the Denons and sent me some pic's.

Shane, I was wondering about those buttons, if one were to remove the wood casing.  You could probably make some sort of rigid platform to re-mount them in place of the wood.

To say that the P3 suspension, which looks like that of a modern sports car in terms of complexity, is not like an LP12 suspension, is pretty much like saying that a modern sports car suspension is more sophisticated than that of a Model T Ford. It's no contest.

Raul,
Can you tell why did you sell your Dynavector Karat Nova D13? Just curious.

Hey Lew

My audio buddy who was living in Japan who got me my P3 had looked at removing the wood plinth, bit it was more difficult than thought. The on/off, speed and power buttons are part of the wood plinth build.
Personally, I would love to do it as it looks just as cool naked.

My P3 was fully service by Pioneer Japan before I got it in 2009. Its nothing like the LP12 suspension, its very stiff and does not go off.

Dear @lewm : In those old times specs was everything for Japanese audiophiles.
All the great and top DD turntables were designed and builded in the same time ( earlier 80’s. ) and were manufactured in specific for the Japanese market not for Europe, USA, Asia or México.

In that market Denon ( Dp-100 ) , Kenwood, Onkyo, Yamaha, Technics, Pionner/Exclusive and even Sony competed with " ferocity " for the customers. Specs coming with the same standards, no differences on that.

The Exclusive Pioneer’s line was not on ly for TT or tonearms but for electronics and speakers too. As a fact in the Japanese market existed very top high end audio items that we just can’t imagine and unfortunatelly never seen out of Japan. Time latter TT’s were offered to the world.

Btw, yes I know that you can’t tell music fromsome distortions but I know you are improving about your self when not many gentlemans not even know how to do it.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

http://audio-database.com/PIONEER-EXCLUSIVE/player/p3a-e.html

Shane, Yes, I am aware of its internal construction.  Just wondering whether the wood outer "box" that serves only as a cosmetic shroud might resonate a bit.  (Even if so, I imagine you could just remove it entirely.) Also, I gather from a person who lived in Tokyo and owned two P3s at one point that it is a good idea to get the suspension serviced by a Pioneer authorized technician.

War of the coreless motors: P3 vs GT2000X vs L07D.  My money is on Godzilla.

Hi Lew

The P3 plinth is isolated from the chassis. The motor and tonearm are on a separate spring/oil suspension.  If you do a search you will see a naked picture of the P3 sans plinth.  

Cheers

Raul, I think JP already pointed out to you that it is folly to judge any two closely matched turntables in general by factory published specifications, because we don't know how the measurements were made. In particular, we do know that the P3a specs were determined after there was a revision in the methods for measuring S/N that made everything look better (quieter by I think about 3db) than it did before the change in methodology.  

On the other hand, I do agree with you; the P3 or P3a may well be superior to the Mk3, but not based on the differences in factory published specifications.  However, I would posit that the Mk3 offers more possibilities for upgrades that might bridge any gap between it and the P3, because of its more modular construction.  I don't deny that I would like to own a P3, in order to hear it for myself in my system and decide for myself where it stands in the pantheon of high end DD turntables.  I suspect its plinth is not up to modern standards, although everything else about it apparently is.

Of course, this is coming from an uninformed philistine who cannot tell music from distortions.

Glad you like the UNI Lew...
That one was my third after I wore out the first one nine years ago.
At that stage I was a one-turntable/one-cartridge man and wanted to ensure I had continued listening-enjoyment for the years ahead....😎
With iover 40 cartridges now, I can't see me wearing ANY of them out....
I haven't heard the UNI II or Suoreme or whatever they call their latest and greatest....
From the reports I have read...they seem to be even better, but then again....if one is prepared to pay the prices for these....one would expect to hear an improvement 😝

Hey Lew.   sorry - P3 is staying :-)

Hi Raul - Both P3 and 1000mk3 are stock.  The technics is of interest as you can put a different tonearm onto it. I am planning to try my Thales Simplicity II to try and get a best of old world / new world.

cheers Shane

Dear @d: IF your Pioneer is a stock P3a then outperforms a stock SP10MK3. One of the " wow " SP10MK3 specs is the ruble figure/S/N that is 92db DIN B where in the P3a is 95db DIN B.

Could be nice to compare both units in refurbished status or even as a stock units.

Pioneer has nothing to envy from >Technics other that not been part of the Matushita gigant Japanese group.

Btw, the EPC 100CMK4 is matched on heaven with the EPA 100MK2.

Have fun.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS,
R.

Shane, Always willing to take the P3 off your hands.... (To answer Henry's question, a man always needs "one more" turntable.)

Henry, I am loving the ZYX UNI on the above described Mk3. All my LPs sound better than ever. Did you ever audition the UNI II or the latest new version of the UNI? My prior favorable experience with the UNI was with the original version, which led me to be interested in yours. I was not prepared to buy into the idea that newer versions are necessarily better. In particular, the latest one I think has a carbon fiber (or some such) cantilever, which could not possibly have the same sonic flavor as did the original.

Hi Henry.

No. That is a lot more expensive, has been modified and is in the US, so freight would be a killer. That was mpre a post for any potential US buyers.

 I am getting one locally, well from Perth. The guy had 3, and wanted to go down to 2.  An opportunity I could not pass.

Yea, I think I am going to have to sell the Exclusive P10 soon as I don't have anymore space left on the cabinet.

That's exciting Shane.
Is it the one in the Link you posted?
How many turntables does one man need.....😀

I have a TECHNICS SL-1000MK3D coming in next week, which I am looking forward to. Finger crossed the freight company look after it.

First up will be to use it with the EPC-P100C-MK4 Cartridge.

Lew,
Without even having heard your or any L07D I just know it´s hard to "beat", musically in particular.

I’ll take "...languid with happiness" from your dictionary. I love the L07D. Note that I wrote "more languid", compared to the Mk3, which is anything but languid.  I was also trying to stay away from saying the L07D was "more musical".  Before the Krebs mod to the Mk3, I might have said that. Language is always a major limitation in trying to verbalize the amazingly sensitive discriminatory powers of the ear/brain.

Cool Lew

perhaps lanquid is not what you implying as the Lo7D sound :-)
Definition of languid
1
: drooping or flagging from or as if from exhaustion : weak
arms too languid with happiness to embrace him — John Galsworthy
2
: sluggish in character or disposition : listless proceeded at a languid pace
3
: lacking force or quickness of movement :

here is a reasonably priced Mk3 with plinth - at lease compared to Artisan Fidelity OTT pricing.

https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/title-to-be-added/buy-and-sell-equipment-and-music/49679-technics...

The Mk3 is king of pace and rhythm, not at the expense of sounding too "tight", for want of a better word.  Originally, without the Krebs mod, I would say it did sound a little tight, compared to the L07D.  Someone else might prefer the more languid sound of the L07D, and I certainly like that, too.  I recently mounted a ZYX Universe cartridge on the Reed, purchased from one of our brethren here.  I was primed to love the Universe, based on hearing it at the home of my neighbor up the street, who has since moved on to a Universe Premium (or whatever they call the 3rd generation of the Uni). I thought then that it was the best MC I had ever heard.  (He was using a Galibier turntable with a Talea 2 tonearm back then, now uses a Telos.) I am loving the UNI on the Mk3, too. Yes, there are two crazy audiophiles within less than a quarter of a mile of each other on my block.

Very nice Lewm. Good to see you using it with a modern tonearm

Its your best sounding turntable now?    What does it bring sonically that the others don't?

Thanks, brf.

@lewn, just took a peek at your SP10 Mk3 on your system profile, very nicely done.  I like it a lot. 

Forgot to mention that I built a bearing damper exactly like Albert Porter's idea, into the cherry base of the above plinth.  Albert uses a block of iron.  I am leery of putting that much iron near the motor's rotor, which in the Mk3 is a gigantic circular magnet bolted onto the underside of the platter.  So I used a brass block of similar dimensions and mass.  A threaded brass rod perforates the brass block and makes contact at its upper end with the bearing housing.  Albert uses this idea in his Panzerholz plinths, assuming he still makes them.  I just snug the brass rod up against the bearing assembly; not too tight, just snug.  

Downunder, My Mk3 is mounted in a 70-lb slate slab, 2.5 inches thick.  The slab is mated to a solid cherry base that is about the same size as the slate.  I epoxy'd some threaded inserts into the slate and bolted the wood base into those, for good Constrained Layer Damping.  Then I made some slate armboards for this plinth.  The 10.5-inch Reed 2A tonearm (Red Cedar wand) is mounted on a slate arm board which is also bolted into the slate slab.  The whole thing probably weighs about 100 lbs. In order to maneuver it so I could get some home -made footers under it (and some Stillpoints), I placed a deflated inner tube under the plinth and then inflated it, so as to raise up the structure.  Lifting it and then simultaneously putting something under it was a non-starter. It sits atop an Adona rack.  I use a Boston Audio Mat2.  There may or may not be a photo on my system site.

Sorry about mis-counting the poles on a Mk3 motor.  I was going on memory, as I was not about to take the platter off just to count the poles.

Hi lewm

How is your technics SP10 mk3 configured?  
that is plinth, tonearm and cartridge.

cheers

As soon as I finish restoring a pair of 10-SP II I will pass to the restoration of a TT101 does not work, is completely broken and given to me for free.

So I’ll have to completely take it apart piece by piece and I can see and understand what the state is spindle and thrust pad.

You will need a major revision to electronics, I hope they are not IC failures.

20 poles on the MK3.  

Victor used a synthetic lubricant, though 30+ years may be pushing it.  Wear of the thrust pad will affect coil to rotor gap which could have a negative affect, being dual-rotor.  

No, SP10 Mk3 is not coreless. It's a massive 24-pole motor.  I never heard any "problem" with it, but it definitely sounds more coherent, musical, or smooth (pick your adjective) after having undergone the Krebs mod, which is directed at the tendency of the rotor/stator structure to rotate counter to the direction of the application of torque (Newton's 3rd Law), which in turn causes the servo to make more frequent minute speed corrections than is necessary and maybe that introduces a tiny bit of roughness or edginess to the sound that is effectively ameliorated by whatever Richard has invented. (It's a state secret.)  The Krebs Mk3 is by far the best of the iron pole motors I have heard in this system and probably edges out the others as well, if I were ever to do a really intense comparison.  JP Jones has a further upgrade for the electronics of the MK3 that I plan to have him do on mine. (Fidelis Analog, on the internet)

Your TT101 may need to be properly calibrated.  JP, who also fixed my TT101, raising it up from doorstop to turntable, says that calibrating the TT101 is a bit tricky.  I think it's fair to say that he would say most vintage direct-drives still in use are not working as well as they could, because of lack of proper calibration of the drive electronics.  Just a thought.

Thanks for the comments guys.....
Makes sense that the performance of the TT-101 was deteriorating BEFORE the outage....and that was the 'coup-de-gras' 🙈
Will be interesting to compare the two when I get it back.

Yes totem.....my Tech has fully serviced the 101 two or three times previously but no lubrication or dismantling of the bearing. It seems fine and spins freely for endless minutes when turned without power.

No storm or lightning Lew, when the power went.....and the Donald didn't cause it 👅
I know your preference has always been for coreless motors.....but I thought the SP-10 Mk3 is NOT.....?

Halcro, I am not sure what you are reporting.  Do you perceive that your TT81 outperforms the TT101, compared even to how the TT101 sounded before the power outage? Or are you saying that this observation is in relation to how the TT101 performed AFTER the power outage?

Were you able to ascertain the cause of the momentary loss of power on your street? Assuming this was not the moment when Trump hung up on your Prime Minister (a moment of which I am thoroughly ashamed and disgusted), perhaps it was a lightning strike.  Lightning is at millions of volts and can, for a brief instant, get by just about any power conditioner or filter. Perhaps, if the TT101 power supply was thus damaged, this could account for your perception. You may want to check or have someone else check the rectifiers and the filter capacitors in the TT101 Power Supply. For that matter, damage may also have been done to the downstream circuitry.

Have you ever changed the bearing lube in your TT101 (or TT81)? Yes, Victor wrote that the bearing never needs service, but as we've said before, "never" has a new definition at the 35-year mark in age. I changed my lube to Redball 0W20 motor oil, and I like the result.

I suppose a given TT81 could outperform (in terms of human perception) a TT101, but in principle a coreless motor is just better for turntables, in my opinion.

I read in the TT101 service manual that it do not need maintenance and engine lubrication but I believe little.

All turntables and those who have many many years of life need cleaning pin and lubrication with oil and perhaps thrust pad as for Technics SP 10 MK
None of you have ever done this to her TT 101?

halcro
Curious if your teck has been inside a TT-101 before?

Perhaps you would be better off with one of these halcro?
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/493608538/love-the-worlds-first-intelligent-turntable

Perhaps there was something wrong already with the TT-101 and the power outage finished it off? This could account for the difference in sound.

Hi Halco,

Sorry to hear about the TT-101. Hope your Tech can return the TT-101 back to its original glory. We can only make assumptions why the TT-81 sound better than the TT-101.  Could it be possible that the TT-101 performance deteriorated overtime and went unnoticed?  Your redundancy in power surge protection should have kept the TT-101 from harm.  Is it possible the power outage was merely a coincidence the TT-101 failed? It’s difficult to imagine two models made by the same company where their “top” model is trumped by a lower model. When the TT-101 is back on-line, you will undoubtedly do another side by side comparison again.  That should settle the ambiguity

I started this Thread over five years ago, bemoaning the imagined horror of being unable to keep our beloved vintage Japanese DD turntables functioning due to lack of parts……notably ‘chips’.

I believe, in the course of the many Posts since…. we have probably allayed those fears.

I also, in the second Post…..complained about the complexity of the Victor TT-101 compared to its ‘brother’, the TT-81.

Both decks perform the same. They both share the exact same construction, dimensions, platter construction and bi-directional speed control patented by Victor.

The only functional differences between the two were the use of a coreless motor for the TT-101 and the highly complex but accurate, 4Hz stepped speed-control buttons contained within the TT-101 circuitry.

I also mentioned years ago that I was unable to detect any differences in 'sound' or performance between the two.

Why then....was the TT-101 designed to be so overly complex in comparison❓ 👀

Last week, whilst I was listening to the TT-101......the speed accelerated instantly and a 'bang' coincided with a total power outage. The entire street (and suburb) was without power for two hours. When power was restored.....the TT-101 was unable to maintain correct speed 😱

How a 'spike' or 'surge' in the current was able to bypass the Eaton DSFi Dual-Stage Surge Power Filter positioned at the switchboard before the dedicated power circuit, then bypass the PS Audio P3 Power Regenerator before also bypassing the 240V-100V step down transformer in front of the TT-101 power supply is a mystery to me...... Particularly as nothing else in the entire audio electrical architecture was affected 🤔

I rushed to the attic to retrieve my TT-81 and it slipped into the polished black granite cradle without a single change to my surrounding three arms being required 👐

I was not prepared for what I heard when I resumed my listening......

The sound was better than I had been hearing from the TT-101.....and considerably better...

And whilst the TT-101 is with my Tech....I'm left to ponder this dilemma 🤔

Thoughts.......❓

haaaah ok  ok..........  I thought the TT 81 was this sold on ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JVC-Model-QL-8-TT-81-Turntable-/152408974834?hash=item237c4865f2:g:f~IAAOSw4...

Just to clarify the above posts the Victor TT-81 Japan 100 volt drive only, is the JVC N.A. 115 volt QL8, that was supplied with a plinth and an arm.

QL8 you're referring to?

Sorry if you're referring to that, he was dead, left some time for sale and then sold these days.

That's great about the MK-III Kmccarty. How much do the chips sell for?

If anyone is interested there's a TT-81 on eBay as well as an Exclusive motor unit.