Vibration Control for Lightweight Tube Components

Sorbothane cones, or a slab of it you cut to fit, work for all my vibration issues. Google sorbothane to read about it. I got a 1/4 inch by 12 x 12 piece for about $30.00 and cut it to fit as support for all my components. My turntable would skip if I didnt approach it on cat-paw feet. Now I walk normally and detect no issues. Multiple pieces at multiple levels. Feet of the rack, suspension points for the shelf, and on the feet of the component.

I would highly recommend that you look at Solid Tech Feet of Silence or Discs of Silence. I use the Feet of Silence. I have no connection with the company- but I will say that their products are an integral part of my system. Installing the FOS was tantamount to buying a new component- they are that good, in my opinion. Go to their website and look at the test measurement results- and the results are achievable regardless of what kind of surface you put them on. 

They use the mass on springs concept that was mentioned earlier. 

r_f_sayles wrote,

"This is why it may be "ultimate" but people have to skin-the-cat for far less. And I would bet you we are getting most of what the Vp isolates (80-90%) for a fraction of the cost."

Hope springs eternal in the heart of the frugal audiophile. Springs. Get it? ;-) The article Bad Vibes! by Shannon Dickson appeared in Stereophile about the time Vibraplane came out, about 20 years ago.

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/52/#x5wTtreK38fkz2gg.97

G. K.
M. D.

Lowrider57, glad you have your warmth back without resonance, fortunately soft wood panels are not expensive either. 

if you want a finished maple wood platform, as you may well know, Amazon and IKEA also have a nice assortment of cost effective options and some of the cutting/chopping boards are really beautiful and don't carry the "audiophile" price gouge.

Happy Listening!

... And just how much is a Vibraplane that will hold one piece of audio gear???

This is why it may be "ultimate" but people have to skin-the-cat for far less. And I would bet you we are getting most of what the Vp isolates (80-90%) for a fraction of the cost.

moryoga wrote,

"I have it on pretty good authority that Vibraplanes are the only truly legitimate isolation platform. I think that this is confirmed by the fact that an air based isolating platform is what is used in all real deal labs and research facilities. For light weight gear you can "mass load" meaning adding a steel plate or other level, stable weight to fulfill the platforms weight requirements. I have three, one exclusively for my tt, a Basis 2800. I’ve added a 110lb steel plate and it sounds truly awesome, much better then before I added it."

Actually while Vibraplane is one of the first audiophile vibration isolation stands it is certainly not the only air type platform nor are air type platforms the only "real" isolation devices. Actually Vibraplane used to be a microscope stand that was marketed to the audiophile market. Prior to Vibraplane there was the Townshend Seismic sink, another air spring (I.e., mass-on-spring) device. I introduced Nimbus almost twenty years ago, another air spring device. Bright Star also had an air spring device. And there were a bunch of others, like Relaxa magnetic levitation, Vibrapods, etc. The Minus K device employs "negative stiffness" which is not an air design to achieve super isolation performance. Vibraplane and my Nimbus employed heavy mass mounted below the air springs to preload the platform but more importantly - in the case of Nimbus - to provide much needed lateral support since my Nimbus used only ONE air spring. Obviously preloading reduces resonant frequency of the device. Mechanical steel springs and, say, bungee cords work the same way as the Vibraplane, as a low mechanical pass filter.

geoff kait
machina dynamica

Great Lowrider! I love inexpensive tweeks.

I found some scrap wood today in the house and pulled out a board which had been cut in half. It's a soft wood and lightweight.

Using 5 Moogels underneath, I swapped it with the bamboo and take a guess...my system sounds terrific. It's got a warm timbre with realistic sounding instruments. Preamp is using the Isonodes.

As a test, I used the worst DG mastered CD's I own and the music does sound natural. These are the harsh sounding, close-miked orchestra CDs and they sound quite acceptable when using this new suspension shelf. And no resonances from my rack.
So, I think I'll buy some finished wood at Lowes. 

I have it on pretty good authority that Vibraplanes are the only truly legitimate isolation platform.  I think that this is confirmed by the fact that an air  based isolating platform is what is used in all real deal labs and research facilities. 
For light weight gear you can "mass load" meaning adding a steel plate or other level, stable weight to fulfill the platforms weight requirements. I have three, one exclusively for my tt, a Basis 2800. I've added a 110lb steel plate and it sounds truly awesome, much better then before I added it. 

lowrider57. The DiD's are 1 7/16" tall - 2" Dia.

I feel somewhat remiss in that when I made my last post I didn’t see the previous 3 posts on page 2.

Anyway, I purchased a set of Moongels yesterday and will be looking into the mentioned replacements for equipment footers. These things I will employ when I get back from a month of travel to the southwest US. 

Please note for most applications small springs don't require a board of any type so that eliminates that variable.  Also, if one wishes to use a board or granite whatever, due to the nature of mass of spring operation/function the physical characteristics of the board or slab are minimized since the board or slab itself is isolated from structural vibration hence can't get too excited.

Tomorrow I'll play with placement of the Moongels, and I do have various pieces of wood to try.

adg101... what are the dimensions of the Daedalus DiD's, specifically the height?
I have a height issue with the large tubes now that I've added the bamboo board.

@bpoletti, no I haven't.

@r_f_sayles, the Isonodes are adhered to the bottom of the chassis.
Let me clarify this issue; my system has always had lush, warm sonics using a preamp on the pine shelf. With the new lightweight preamp, it still had the same timbre (due to tube selection), but suffered from resonances thru the shelf.
I tried Herbie's, Vibrapods, and now Isonodes; all kept the warm sonic signature, but the Isonodes provided greater detail.

Ha... another drummer. 

The myrtle wood blocks work really good and I too use them under most of my gear instead of the stock feet; use three per. I use the stock feet on my table and my preamp I run three Daedalus DiD's. All equipment sits on bamboo w/ the moongels except my amp as it weighs too much for the gels... it also has two stacks off three of the wood blocks. I have to stack them on the amp because the stock feet are tall. I use Ayre myrtle blocks which are the same as the Cardas brand.

The Daedalus DiD's are remarkable and I'll be getting a set for my cd and amp next. The wood blocks are very good but not even close to the DiD's. If you get a chance to try the DiD's you'll be hooked.

Lowrider57, when you tried the Isonodes on the pine shelf and got the warmer and lusher presentation, what did they come in contact with? The component feet or the chassis?

Thanks adg101, some good ideas. The bamboo might be too stiff with 6 Moongels.
I'll also try them under the stock feet. They are an amazing invention; when I was playing drums, all we had was duct tape and a wad of paper towel on the skins.

And I have always placed Herbie's tube dampers at the upper third near the top of the plates.

Low - have you tried Vibrapod cones on top of Vibrapod pucks?

@bpoletti, I put Vibrapods back under the preamp, and it sounded warmer, but there was a loss of low-end detail. The Isonodes are superior.

@r_f_sayles, I appreciate your advice. Yes, the sound is new to me and I had a long listening session today. I don't mind the neutral timbre the bamboo brings to my system, but there is a characteristic that is a problem. CD's now have an "edge" in the higher frequencies; eg, cymbol crashes do not sound realistic.

 Trying some wood blocks under the chassis is a good idea. I can say for certain that the change in timbre is due to the wood and not the footers, because I previously tried the Isonodes on the pine shelf and they were completely transparent. In other words, the preamp on pine sounded warm and lush as usual, but with more detail than other footers.

Lowrider, I really don’t know the answer to that question in terms of  the dissipation of vibration stemming form floor to equipment via a rack. The bamboo platers have greater density and are thinner. The maple shelves I use are much thicker, though less dense. Those more knowledgable in mechanical impedance might shed a light on this. I believe we are asking, can a mechanical ‘ring’ be translated to an electrical one by the forces generating the mechanical one.

It is a good thing I only think of these things when on computer, not when listening to my system. Need to spend more time with system, not computer. 

Still enjoy this thread!

Definitely agree with r_f_sayles last post. Give it some time. 

I only use four of the moongels at the corners. Try it that way and see if it changes. You mentioned earlier you use the Herbie tube dampers I believe. I use them too and prefer them. I run my dampers all the way to the top. If you have them in the middle try moving them up if there's room or completely off.

Maple is definitely a softer wood and just like drums it will be a little warmer sound. Bamboo is very rigid and dense. The moongel pads are doing the fix more than the bamboo shelf I suspect. Try the moongels only; directly under the stock feet or your preamp taking the shelf out of the mix. Try the other tweaks noted above first.

Lowrider57, I would caution that the sound is new to you, give it a while. That’s not to say ultimately that it may not need adjusting to suit your tastes. I’ve found when smearing and distortions or confusion are first removed, there is a sense that things went leaner because so much more is resolved and no longer a fuzzy clutter. You should not have to have vibration in your gear and what comes with it to have the midrange warmth you desire. Yet, here is where Hi-Fi gets tricky. When you change one thing, it may well cause you to have to tweak others to get the balance or Gestalt of your sound back where you want it.

Before calling the bamboo the issue of leanness though I would suggest that you try some small wood blocks contacting between the bamboo and the chassis of your components. This will prove out if dampening the component box gives you back some of that midrange body, but it will also drain of cabinet bound energy as well.

Try anything, whatever you have on hand. I like myrtle wood blocks but, any wood will sound somewhat the same. I also like the bamboo yet, some like the maple ( many have only tried maple), though I tried both and went back to bamboo. But that’s me, and my kit, I can’t say it will ultimately work for you. Thickness also has an effect on the tone, so I’m afraid you may have to experiment there as well. A strategy might be to buy or borrow a marble wood board and try it under different components. Different gear may well like different isolation boards. My two turntables like thin (5/8-3/4") bamboo, my mono block amps prefer heavy (2 1/2") maple or bamboo, and my CD player seems to prefer a BDR Black Diamond Racing Reference board to perform best, so go figure.

At this point the good news is, you have successfully acquired isolation from the vibration, so that’s one step in the right direction. Now, don’t be afraid to just experiment.

Vibrapods.

I think the bamboo is causing too much of a "live" sound. The mids are sounding lean from my Gallo's which have previously had a lush presentation.
 Would maple be a better platform, possibly warmer?

R_f_sayles, I am not currently using points under my equipment, however have often thought to try some. Would the brass types be best?  Might also look into the Bright Star IsoNodes. 

Lowrider, thanks for your thread, I enjoyed the participation! 

I'm pleased to report that my problem with resonance between my rack unit and the preamp has been resolved. Using the IKEA bamboo cutting board with the Moongels underneath was the solution. So, a big thank you to adg101 for sharing this cheap tweak with me.

I'm using a 17"x11" bamboo board with 4 Moongels at the corners, and 2 in the center. The pine shelf has been completely dampened and this bamboo shelf with the preamp is now isolated.
I have the Bright Star IsoNode's under the preamp chassis and the sonics are really outstanding.

I use Peter Erskine's "Dream Flight" as one of my reference CDs and this jazz quartet sounds so live, that I feel like I'm in the same room with them. The presentation is more forward and I've never heard such inner detail from my system.
However, symphonic music is sounding too lean for my taste; clearly the bamboo is causing a different timbre than the pine shelf. The detail in the orchestra is just right and the layering between instrument sections is very realistic. Strings are smooth, but lack the warmth I am used to hearing.
I guess this is what a transparent, neutral system sounds like.

Thanks to everybody who participated in this thread.

mesch, May I interject, are your metal boxed components sitting on their manufacturers (rubber) supplied feet, on the maple shelves? Or have you tried coupling them by putting wood blocks, points (points down), or what-have-you, from the chassis to the shelf? The later scheme would act as a drain of energy from the component rather than isolating the energy within the component which the former would likely do.

Lowrider, your advise is well taken. I take care care of cable placement and only use lengths that are needed and they are not crossed. Interconnects don’t touch the floor. Speaker cables on risers. 

Just to be clear, I don’t believe I have any issues with RFI. My concern is with vibrations induced into components via room sound pressure or developed within the component, as by transformers. I dedicated room has a concrete floor. My equipment shelf sits on spikes, is filled with sand, and has 2” maple shelves. My AMP is on its own stand.

As you and Geoffkait advised, I intend to purchase the Herbies dampers for my Pre.  

Thanks for allowing me to interact on your thread.

So, in other news, while I’m waiting for my bamboo board and Moongels to be delivered, I installed Bright Star IsoNode Feet under my preamp.

The sound of my system is more transparent, with much more low-end detail than when using the Vibrapods or Herbie’s Tenderfeet. This softer, more compliant material works better on a lightweight component.

But still picking up resonances from the shelf.

It's your IC's guarantee it.

They are unbalanced ICs, Purist Musaeous and Grover Huffman Empress and I'm not sure if they're shielded.
So, is there a solution to prevent extraneous sound from traveling thru a cable?

It's your IC's guarantee it. 

mesch, if you're using short runs of cables, separate your components from power supplies and avoid coiling power cables, etc., you most likely wouldn't experience a EMF/RFI problem. Do you use any conditioning or a surge protector with filters?

For $15 per tube damper, you could get tighter bass and possibly a more focused image. It's a great tweak.

Lowrider, Yes I am using the Jolida Fusion w/out any mods. Was thinking that as well as I haven’t heard a problem with RF in my system, and also thinking  I may wrap the transformers with the mu metal as Geoffkait recommends. Will depend on the cost of the Herbies as I have 4  tubes to treat.

Tube shields can be removed and Herbies dampers used instead for better sonics, less microphonics. Tube shields are used for RF Interference. Are you using a Jolida? 

http://m.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-tube-shield.htm

Geoffkait, thanks for that. I think I will check out Herbies and also the mu metal wrap. What do you use to physically damp the transformers?

Mesch wrote,

Geoffkait, My preamp has those metal cylinders over the tubes. Can tube dampers be used in this case? Also, I have some of the red and what I will call “o-ring’ dampers. What do you think of those?

Don't know if the tube dampers can be used on metal type tubes, but maybe.  Check with Herbies Lab to see what he says.  Might be worth a shot. I don't actually like those elastomer o rings, actually I never found anything other than Herbies dampers to do anything except hurt the sound. 

Lowrider, yes so many tweeks can be DIY at little cost. Make my own cable risers, not sure of the affect, but they look cool. Also, thanks, seldom am I accused of having a ‘great mind’. 


Geoffkait, My preamp has those metal cylinders over the tubes. Can tube dampers be used in this case? Also, I have some of the red and what I will call “o-ring’ dampers. What do you think of those? 

Lowrider57 wrote,

@geoffkait, I’m using Herbies tube dampers. In the past, I found that 2 dampers would deaden the sound. But I never tried a damper on the base."

obviously one can over-damp the tube or anything for that matter. As I’m sure you know the sound is quite sensitive to exactly where on the glass the damper is placed. The ideal location appears to be wherever the getter is located. So on a bottom getter tube the damper would be placed around the glass down near the base of the tube, assuming it has a base. The Sylvania Badboys have bases and so does the Tung Sol rectifier, for example.

@geoffkait, I’m using Herbies tube dampers. In the past, I found that 2 dampers would deaden the sound. But I never tried a damper on the base.

@mesch , great minds think alike. I used 2 1/2 lb. barbell weights with cork on some components as well.

Gee, funny no one mentioned Herbies tube dampers for all tubes, rectifiers, 6SN7s, 12AX7s, you name it. Would you believe two dampers per output tube and rectifier often sounds better than one? One on the glass, the other on the base. Yeah, I know, that's more than the cost of your tubes just for the dampers.  And of course the transformer needs to be wrapped with mu metal (and physically damped).  The tubes are sitting right in from of that big honking magnetic field.  Hel-looo! And now sis the time for the cork, isolating the circuit boards. 

Yes, I mass loaded my amp, pre, disc player. I used barbell weights with 1/8” cork bottoms. I didn’t have your spatial constraint however. I am sure you can find something at a hardware/farm store that would provide an inexpensive solution. Happy hunting!

Mass loading on top of a component is advised, if possible for its dampening and absorption properties. Something I have found most effective for this, I no longer know where to source. They were paperweights, leather bags filled with lead shot, used to hold down large architectural roll size drawings. Perhaps diving ballast bags would do the trick and be most cost effective.

@r_f_sayles, I plan on mass loading if I can find some weights that are only 2" wide. It made a significant improvement in sonics to my previous preamp. I’ve been looking thru my house and workshop for a DIY solution.
Maybe some calibration weights for a triple-beam scale. Too bad I got rid of my scale years ago, LOL.

Since there are six count ’em directions of motion for which isolation would need to be applied and since springs isolate quite well in the vertical direction and isolate somewhat less well in two of the rotational directions and, practically speaking, not at all in the twist rotational direction or in the horizontal plane, a comprehensive solution would be mechanical springs plus roller bearings, which are rather good at isolating in the twist direction and the other two rotational directions as well as the horizontal plane, but hardly at all in the vertical direction. Voila!

Spencer---Actually, in my post way up above I mentioned placing a trio of roller bearings (the generic term for what Symposium calls their Roller Block) between the pre-amp and Baltic Birch plywood shelf I suggested. I didn’t name a specific brand (such as Symposium) because there are a few people making them.

One idea for the problem of heavy cables pulling up components is the lead/brass discs that a few companies sell. IMHE, they work well sonically especially when placed over power supplies. So often 2 discs does the trick, one centered to offset the cable pulling and the other over where the power cable connects. 

For vibration draining, another solution I didn't see mentioned in this thread is the ball bearing & cup type products such as Symposium Rollerblocks. They are very effective under my preamp and phono stage, probably under digital gear too. I thought these are pretty popular here, but since they are nothing new, perhaps there isn't anything new to say...Cheers,
Spencer

Lowrider, I have been following this thread and am very interested in hearing the results of any implementations you employ.  My concerns regarding vibrations are primarily directed at draining them from equipment. Thanks!

Lowrider57, I encourage using whatever mains cable makes your preamp sound best and then just try to relieve any hanging weight with some kind of support, even a pull-tie noose with the cable hanging, creating a service loop would do the trick and remove the transference of energy by relieving the tension.

Do let us know about your progress in vibration control as it comes together. We look forward to your impressions as you get closer to your music.

As a side note: I would love to add a Atma preamp to my kit, I have had MA-1 Silvers for quite some time and have heard the compo, and it's magic. Otherwise, could not be happier. 

Happy Listening!

Good point about the power cord or ICs tending to pull the component down on one side, ruining the isolation effectiveness or, in the case of CD players, putting the CD transport out of absolute level, unless the power cord and ICs are suspended or otherwise dealt with. I also want to point out that my new Super Stiff Springs are the ticket for very heavy objects such as VPI turntables, Verdier turntables, really big amplifiers such as the Classe flagship. Four Super Stiff Springs will support and isolate objects up to around 150 lb. Use five Super Stiff Springs for a 200 lb object and so forth. Give me the right spring and I’ll isolate the world.

I'm now convinced that I should use a suspension system for isolation. I'm going to take adg101's advice and use a bamboo cutting board with either the Moongels or geoffkait's springs beneath it.
Thanks to all for your input.

@r_f_sayles, thanks for the detailed explanation and the preamp is a UV-1.

With a preamp that light, just like a small phonostage, or DAC, what-have-you, you need to be aware of not "loading" the preamp chassis with a heavy mains cable dangling from it, causing an energy path from whatever the cable is also in contact with.

I did think about that and swapped the heavy Audience cable with the stock PC for now. I'm also supporting the ICs so they don't hang on the shelf.