Yes! Live concerts with a great orchestra and venue are da bomb! I grew up in Cincinnati, and Music Hall is one of the best sounding old school concert halls in America. It's very similar to Boston's Symphony Hall, definitely considered one of the best, which was modeled after one a highly regarded hall in Europe. I've had the good fortune to attend concerts at Kennedy Center in DC, Dorothy Chandler Pavilion in LA (under Zubin Mehta in the '70s), and Benaroya Hall in Seattle, where I live and attend now. Maestro Gerard Schwarz just stepped down after 26 seasons, and in that time he both shaped the Seattle Symphony into a world class orchestra (their ability to do large scale orchestral pieces is astonishing!) and he oversaw the acoustic design of Benaroya Hall, built about 11 years ago. A season ago I heard them play both Holst's The Planets and Moussourgsky/ Ravel's Pictures at an Exhibition. Four years earlier I heard Rostropovich conduct them in a Shostakovich birthday celebration. The way live music energizes that concert space must be experienced to be believed. You can hear and feel a lot of infrasonic bass energy there. The air is fairly crackling with musical energy. A couple other venues in Seattle where I've experienced this are St. James Catholic Cathedral and St. Mark's Episcopal Cathedral, where in both cases 16Hz pedal tones from their respective pipe organs had my pants leg flapping. St. James in particular is huge, giving the 64-foot soundwaves plenty of room to form and oscillate And if there's hope in recreating that room energy with a pair of super subs, well, I'm going to be saving up for a pair of sealed subs that extend below 20 Hz. |
If money were no object, I'd book myself with all the live events I possibly could and with good friends. Needless to say, a live event carries that energized air and sound experiences in their most organic and dynamic form which as we all know, you just have to be there, literally as our percussionist Johnnyb53 has so well indicated.
For the rest of us, its exciting that there are these super subs available which can come into our listening rooms and actually help recreate the air of a live event like the ones being mentioned.
|
You are correct, Johnnyb53, the acoustics at our local hall are not nearly the best I've heard. Cleveland, Cincinnati, and Los Angeles are better by far. And I agree about Benaroya (been there, hearing a family member play). My question was not that there isn't bass in music, but what Johnk's super-sub was aimed at.
The headline piece at the concert I mentioned was Mozart's Jupiter, so there was a bass drum, but the horns were more prominent in my memory. |
11-06-11: Irvrobinson
So, Johnk, just curious, what in music generates such bass pressures? I was just at the symphony last night, and it is remarkable how little bass a symphony orchestra generates during a typical program. Maybe your seat wasn't the best location to catch all the bass. ;) I go to the symphony several times a year and how well I hear the bass sometimes depends on where I sit. There's certainly more bass if you're seated closer to a wall. Then there's the auditorium acoustics (acoustics at Seattle's Benaroya Hall are excellent!) and the program itself. I favor big bombastic orchestral pieces and Holst's "The Planets" makes use of the full percussion section plus pipe organ. There's *plenty* of sub-30 Hz activity going on there. I'm a percussionist, and the 60" dia. concert bass drum has a very low fundamental. Piano goes down to 27 Hz and the contrabassoon goes down to just a half step above that. Let's not forget tympani either. Think about what great subs would do for Stravinsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Host, Elgar, Shostakovich, Respighi, Debussy, Ravel, and Moussorgsky! Yes, there's plenty of sub-40 Hz energy going on in a live classical concert. One thing I noticed about a live orchestral concert is the way the air in the hall is energized. The whole venue feels alive, and that seems to be the big plus with these super subs--they energize the entire space in a way similar to a live concert--something that a stereo pair of speakers very seldom does. |
Yea, the lamp table design is the way to go, which could explain the wires coming out of the back. I might make a removable cover for the cone so if she lifts up the cloth she won't see anyting. |
Yes two is the way to go. Just put a nice cloth tabletop on top of the second and tell your wife it is a new end table that happens to do double duty as sub. |
You can get a smoother response in room using multiple subwoofers. Or one bass horn. So more than 2 is fine wont crumble your room break your windows but it will smooth out peaks and even response. |
That this Velo can keep up with and enhance the openness of the Magnepan 3.7's and the other speakers mentioned in this thread says a lot about its velocity, cone / cabinet resonance and dynamics. I'm running my DD15+ with Dynaudio C1's right now and it keeps up with them. Or are the C1's trying to keep up with the Velo?) a very fast sub here.
I run the C1's by themselves and they are very pure and natural with very present base. Very deep, realistic soundstage. Then, I do the crazy thing of setting the crossover all the way up to 200hz on the Velo and setting the volume very low (2 to 6 for jazz and 6-12 for rock) and whaalaaa, the soundstage opens up and every aspect of the instruments / vocals / air is enhanced. Try this technique and let me know if its just me or does this happen in your set up as well.
Some ramblings: Now I want to try two DD12+'s in my room! Overkill? Certainly. Crazy? Never!!! I too believe 2 subs are better in a good listening room. My room has five walls, an open entry way, a strangely vaulted ceiling, very thick walls and floor and every component is suspended on foam layers. What does all that do? Something, I'm sure. This upgradeitis can become dilusional. Not knowing if there is something that sounds better is a fun thing and drives us. The biggest hurdle for me is telling my wife, "Yes dear, those have always been there" and getting away with it. Once I actually covered a new sub with a table cloth and told her it was a new side table, placing a lamp, etc on it. That worked for a couple of weeks. I don't want to talk about what happened next though. |
I picked the DD18+, Sonicray, because my room is effectively 22x38x14 (I'm guessing), and my system is set up in one end of it. I wasn't sure what it would take to energize such a large space. As it turns out I probably could have used the DD15+ with equally good results. I typically run the DD18+ volume at about 12, maybe 14 for rock music, so the DD18+ must feel half asleep most of the time. Anyway, my motto is "Go big or stay home", so the DD18+ seemed to fill that bill too. |
Sonicray,
I now have the velodyne paired with magnepan 3.7 speakers and it opens up the mids and highs on those as well. Everything i have read says two subs L+R are better than one. |
Podeschi,
Your comment, "I was shocked at how it provides not just a low end foundation but the big impact is it opens up the mids/highs/soundstage and space" it seems is what is being noticed by other owners of this sub as well. It seems to breath life into the soundstage, lifting mid / upper / lower bass detail in the instruments and vocals and presenting them in a much bigger venue than the listening room. It has a very natural, organic tone as well; very satisfying.
Two 10" vs one 15" hu? That would be a nice set up. I was told though, that the 15" is just as fast and more capable (better sounding) overall. True or not, I don't know. It would make a hellofa AB comparison! |
Irvrobinson
Thanks for the comments. I almost got the 18" but was told it was total overkill for my 26 X 21" vaulted room. Perhaps so. I keep the volume at 2 to 4 usually but that's with the crossover turned way up just so I can hear the sub bring out upper bass details (and it does this with such airiness; very fast sub). I knew this sub was special right when I turned it on, not even synced yet. In fact, I haven't had the luxury of having a profesional come out and set it up. But the thing does a pretty good job of dialing itself in through the auto eq. Enjoy! |
Nak8:
What advice did you get from Velodyne regarding your set up?
I wonder especially if setting a sub HIGHER will sound cleaner and more natural. It seems so with my room (which is not a concrete slab, but very thick wooden floors and steel "I" beams supporting, from the 1930's construction). Very solid.
I've got my sub sitting on thick foam and on a 12" high steel stand. It just seems to me the sub cone should be away from walls as much as possible and logically, the floor. Anyway, I get a very dispursed sound which blends very well with the other cones in the room. Perhaps I'll raise it higher, hee hee ha ha!
What a great thread this is, especially with johnk's contributions about that horn sub. Yes, it would probably crush my DD15 Plus if it became a stool for it! What a magnificent sub. I suppose that horn sub would need a large volume around it to breath(?)
Yes, on the low levels, live orchestras do move a lot of air. And yes, I'd rather hear live, unamplified instruments over any systems I have or have ever owned. But that very pure, clean and natural movement of air can be approached by the subs mentioned here, which makes it all very fun.
Thanks for everyone's contributions here. And now, I must go back and . . . listen again . . . Cheers! |
Much music has infra sonics its not just the range of instruments as I mentioned above about venues. I do listen to pipe organ classic rap etc all have bass below 32hz. As do many movies live music games etc. Plus much of the fun in bass horns is above 30 hz where there Superior transient response lower distortion low driver excursions improved room loading all have the effect of more detailed better matching sounding bass. I can play this horn at low levels where one can easily talk over sound but when infra sounds present it will make your eyes unable to focus. I do love when I watch TV and they do not know they recorded infra sounds you hear a subway pass under or trucks idling..The truck thing really bothers my mastiffs they think its UPS or fedex. |
Johnk, I wasn't implying that I thought you used 18" PA drivers in your super-woofer, I was saying that even rock bands that use subwoofers with 18" drivers in their PA systems usually have specs that are something like -3db @ 32Hz. So if classical outside of organs and bass drums don't get very low, and rock gets louder than lower, I was wondering what the material was that made such a monster necessary, that's all.
Your sub sounds like a force of nature, what with four 15" drivers. |
I use it mostly for music but also movies gaming etc. You would be surprised at the bass pressures just a venue has the large space all the movement etc generate infra sonics this pressure gives us the excitement of a live venue why the wee hairs stand up. This my bass horn does with ease it also has massive SPL capabilities with out strain its never force like a conventional design does. Most conventional subwoofers have massive driver excursions need massive power this reduces transient response and increases thermo compression the bass horn doesn't suffer from these design issues. It doesn't use 18in PA drivers as you think but 4 custom built 15in just for use in bass horn. It is similar to a design I use to replicate explosion etc for military training but a bit up-sized since I'm crazy. I have owned and built the best in subbass and nothing is close to a proper bass horn though most will never see or hear one so live on compromised subwoofer design. For that's all most will ever experience. And its probably good enough for most hobbyists bass horns are to large for most home systems. |
So, Johnk, just curious, what in music generates such bass pressures? I was just at the symphony last night, and it is remarkable how little bass a symphony orchestra generates during a typical program. Even in rock and roll, a DD15+ can approximate the bass output of a 22" kick drum; certainly two DD15+s can do it. 18" PA subwoofers are typically -3db at 32Hz, so even live synth or bass isn't getting you to 800lb bass horn territory. Did you build it for movie special effects? |
I will stick with my 800lb bass horn think it could dissolve a little dd15 with its tremendous bass pressures. 4 DD 15 would make nice feet for it to sit on ;) |
Well said, Irvrobinson. I love my DD15+. I was surprised at how seamless it blends into mains and into room. I was shocked at how it provides not just a low end foundation but the big impact is it opens up the mids/highs/soundstage and space. I just wish I had bought to DD10+ versus one DD15+ |
I'm sitting here listening to a newly installed DD18+ with Revel Salon2 mains. I thought the Salon2s had pretty good bass... well, with the DD18+ it's a whole new universe, and this universe has has absolutely compelling, seamlessly blended bass. And when called for, like on Tracy Chapman's Fast Car, well, I didn't know bass performance was possible like this in a home. Amazing. Beyond amazing.
The store I bought it from hadn't sold a DD18+ yet, only DD15+s. The sales guy that delivered it and helped me set it up in my room was so taken by the sound he spent an extra hour listening with me. He didn't offer to move from the sweet spot either. ;)
What a subwoofer. I'm pretty jaded, but this is pretty special product. Sonicray's pushed me into trying it. I hadn't been completely happy with the bass in my room, but I've been postponing doing anything about it. The Salon2s alone aren't exactly slumming it. All I can is thanks, Sonicray. |
room is 23' wide and 16' deep as I listen to music. I set the system up as a short throw rather as a 16"wide and 23' deep listening room to diminish the effects of the doorways and house flow.
I did get more advise from the Velodyne support group and it has made a great improvement to this new thought of sub use in my traditional audiophile head. :) |
Nak8
Glad to hear those Velos are syncing well and digging up low level detail and in stereo. Wish I could be there to hear that! Would you mind mentioning the dimensions of the room? |
I run dual dd plus 15s in stereo.... i ran the optimizer and was surprized that it set the crossover at 84 and 85Hz and volume at 14 and 15 (asymetrical room). This was because i was used to running my subs at around 35-40hz and about 1/3 to 1/2 on the volume. I thought i was going to hear boomy, overpowering bass but i was surprised that everything sounds great with my Usher BE-10s that are with an 11" woofer and rated down to mid 20hz.
I was so surprised that i had to go looking for more opinions on this sub, from an audiophile's point of view. Good to hear my specs are in line with others running high end gear and not just consumer HT stuf. I thought my ears and brain were out of sync.
I am still playing around with them and getting the auto setup to run both optimizations simotaneously was a bit tricky but doable.
All that said, i concure with what has been said....and add that 2 are better than one, especially in stereo. |
Fplanner2010,
If you now have one DD15 and one DD15 Plus series playing in the same room, why not go insane now and while you're at it, do an AB comparison for us.
I hope you enjoy the way the DD Plus digs out the airiness, organics and detail as has been stated in previous comments.
I've been running my DD15 Plus now since I originated this thread and it has become an inseparapable part of my system, no matter what kind of music I'm playing. I keep the volume at 2 to 4 (out of 150) and the high corssover at the highest setting (200 hz). I know that's extreme but in my room it works and the sub shows its true colors. For rock and blues, I turn the crossover down and the volume up to around 12.
Would like to hear from anyone else who has pulled the trigger on one of these DD Plus subs and let us know what you think 8-)) |
I have had a DD-15 for about 6 years now, with software that high-crosses down to 20 hz. I was very concerned that the new DD-15+, which is limited by the software to only high-cross down to 40 hz wouldn't work as well with my VSA VR-7se's, (which can go below 20 hz on a good day :-)) and my relatively higher-end 2-channel system.
I decided to pull the trigger anyhow and am very glad I did. The 20 vs 40 hz became a non-issue, as the new sub is even faster, deeper and more authoritative. In addition, I am getting much better room integration with the new software, although I have barely gotten my feet wet with it.
By holding onto the DD-15, an excellent sub, it opens the possibility of 2 subs at some future point if I go insane :-).
I have no agenda, have heard JL and Earthquake (although not in my system) and am actually pretty amazed the censors actually allowed audiofreakgeek, as a JL AND EARTHQUAKE DEALER, to post such an obviously promotional, self-serving and misleading post on this forum without a dealer disclaimer on 2-15-11. Going even a step further, he insinuates the OP is a dealer?? WOW. He's lost whatever credibility he may have had and the fact that he chooses to hide under a rock instead of apologizing to the forum seems to be a further indicator of character, or lack thereof. Amazing. |
i cannot decide...
i heard DD15 VS JL113 - JL113 is better ..as it is just a lot faster
but my room need 2 15inches..or even 2 18 inches
for music application and main speaker is Maxx2
it does not make a total sense to have 2 JL113..from the bass driver sizes prospective , however there is more than one goner partner the JL113 with big wilson and heard soem good outcome of it
however i feel comfortable with a piar of 15 or 18inch...if the DD plus..is really as fast as the JL... then i shall go for DD plus |
Sonicray.
I have mine set up in the very same manner. Mine kicks in at 50 htz. My room is about the same size as yours. |
Yes I was comparing 2 Velo to one JL. Maybe it's not fair but that's all I have to compare. But then again the 10" Velos are much smaller than the 12" JL so I was able to place them on the front wall behind my main speakers. And from my point of view, I paid the same for the 2 Velo as I did for the 1 JL. |
Yea, two is better than one anytime.
I've had my Velodyne DD15 Plus breaking in now for a month or so, sometimes not having it on. I've positioned it so it is sitting 12" off the floor, diagonal to the room, near a corner, about 3 feet away from the walls. It fires toward the left wall, not across the floor.
In this position, the sound is dispersed very evenly. The tone is so good on this sub, I like to keep the frequency response to 120 or so, just to hear more of what it can do. In my 22' X 19' listening room, I have to keep the volume from 2 to 5 out of 100 or it becomes overwhelming with most music. For movies, I turn it up to 6 or 7. Such overkill! I'm sure the DD12 would have been just fine. Oh well, its fun to have more energy than is needed.
I've tried three different Harbeth speakers and three different Dynaudio models (including the C1's) and due to its speed, the DD15 blends in extremely well with all of them.
If anyone is trying this sub, please share your thoughts!
Cheers, |
Dirtbag,
Are you comparing 2 Velo subs vs a single F112?
2 vs 1 would hardly be fair but if it was 2 F112s, how about some details on the comparison. |
I've had a pair of DD10Plus subs for about a month now and all I can say is they are miles ahead of the JL Audio F112 that they replaced.
I can't believe how smoothly they integrate with my speakers |
Lewhite: Of course, the best way to find out would be to do an A/B comparison between the two in your own listenng room. I have never done that; I just went for the DD Plus series from talking with David Weinhart, who gave me a lot of honest information about the performance of the two and let me decide, and I went in favor of the Plus series. We could have done an A/B there, but it was October and he hadn't gotten any shipments in yet and I decided not to wait.
I guess you could get a Plus series and do an A/B, playing just one at a time (and If you do, I'm sure many of us would appreciate the results to your ears). If you still like the original DD, then return the Plus and stay with the original!
BTW everyone, I teach in a public school for a living and have equipped my classroom with the Odyssey Extreme SE, Candela pre and Dynaudio 1.3 SE speakers and a Sunfire Signature EQ sub (all at my expense of course). The kids really appreciate it. It really kicks @$$ compared to the absolute crap the school provides for sound. When administrators inquire about it, I say it "enhances the learning environment by helping the kids develop an appreciation for music"! I hope I don't start getting the upgrade bug for the classroom though; there would be no end to that.
Cheers(: |
Its one thing for a manufacture or retailer to brag and beat their chest (Duke and Ralph do it constructivly all the time) and not hide their I.D. Its an entirely different kind of personility that derides a competing product then remains anonomus.
To the op: I currently have one DD and thinking about adding one for a stereo pair. Would you recomend selling it and getting one DD+? |
Sonicray, you have nothing to apologize for.
However, the dishonest and unethical shilling dealer does.
Let's all hold our breath. |
BTW, I am NOT a retailer of anything and am not trying to pitch or sell anything. I'm just a regular dude with an ear for music. I've been fiddling with audio gear for about 22 years now and have heard the good, bad and the ugly. I'm rather new on Audiogon so forgive me if I wet myself and sound pitchy at times; its just enthusiasm.
Yea, 200 hz crossover setting sounds crazy but I wanted to see how it would integrate or enhance the lower midrange with music. Try this with your sub and see if it does what Podeschi described earlier.
Question: Does anyone have a preference on IC's for a subwoofer? I'm using custom silver plated; perhaps that lends to the detail.
|
Thanks for the info Audiofeil!
I cross mine at 50 htz with my Soundlab A1 speakers. |
>>02-18-11: Lewhite
Audiofreekgeek sells JL subs?<<
Yup, but he's using a different moniker because he was criticized for not disclosing his retail status with the original moniker.
Email or call me for details on this creep. |
On the REL G1 box Iraqis designed and manufactured in England and USA (California). |
Audiofreekgeek sells JL subs? Does the op sell Velodyne?
Are you DD plus guys really crossing at 200hz? |
Podeschi, Your comment that "It creates much more dimension and atmosphere to the soundstage at all ranges" articulates perfectly what I was trying to say. Of course this effect depends on your gear, room, etc. But that aside, the DD Plus seems to dig out much more substance from each instrument including vocals when the crossover is turned way up. Its like you can hear much more of the saxaphone or whatever instruments are playing and the delivery is crisp, airy and natural, not muddy or cloudy. This may change slightly depending on the break in, but I'm enjoying it for now. |
Have had the DD Plus 15 (cherry) now for a few months, integrated with my Estoric MG-20 speakers, and I run a separate balanced cable into the sub from my Integra for home theater where I'm running Gallo satellites. I used the room equalization software on my notebook computer that Velodyne has, and once dialed in, the sound is perfectly integrated. I dialed it down a couple of notches because I just want the lower foundation. Nice thing about the DD Plus is the functionality/customization. Also, it is fast and musical, and I've found that I appreciate what it adds to the mid range even more than to the lower registers. It creates much more dimension and atmosphere to the soundstage at all ranges. I am very happy. |
Yes, REL is another amazing sub. Are they still made in the same factory or have they moved onto China? If so, I question the materials and quality.
An A/B comparison between the original DD and the DD Plus series would be very interesting. |
Audiofreakgeek sells both earthquake and JL so take his comments with a grain of salt.
And his calling the op's comments a "marketing pitch" is the ultimate in hypocrisy.
LOL |
REL G1 - the best for music |
Even the DD15 - the original - is a great sub.
Very musical and easy to blend with your main speakers. It has been the best sub I have owned.
Enjoy( |
Thanks for all the responses. After reading my comments again, I admit it does sound like a sales pitch (and I hate that kind of G@Bs hype!). I was just so taken in by this sub though; I guess the conditions were "right" and I got a little gushy. I don't take back anything said though; its just my own perceptions anyway.
Thanks, Audiofreakgeek for the insights on Earthquake and JL Audio subs. They have their rightful places for good reasons. I remember the naturalness and tonality of the JL was without peer. As I mentioned before, I look forward to reading about a direct comparison with the DD Plus series, if anyone can swing that.
Don't forget that the new DD Plus series is a different animal altogether than its predecessors; totally different magnet (much larger), cabinet, cone, electronics.
Lewhite: Two subs will beat one any day as Dave agrees. I'd get another one but the wife would roll it out to the curb with me stuck in it!
Dgarretson: It looked to be around 35 or 37 hz roll off but I'll have to double check.
Good points about servos vs non servos. JL may still be the harder hitting as Davehrab mentioned. When set to 200hz crossover, the DD15 Plus seems to impart a kind of organic weight to the individual instruments in the presentation and does it in a crispy, unclouded way. But then again, JL can do this as well, perhaps with even more finesse. I wish I could have one of each to compare.
Not trying to pitch anything here, just sharing the discovery of a new thing and asking for more insights from those more experienced. Thanks again for all your thoughts. |
DD15 Velo. vs JL Audio and Earthquake subs
Could the difference in perception between the Velodyne and the JL and Earthquake subs as Audiofreakgeek mention be that ....
The Velodyne is a servo controlled Sub which tend to play a bit softer and
The JL Audio and Earthquake subs being non servo controlled subs and hitting a little harder as A/F/geek mentioned in his experience
Servo subs are designed to control/reduce distortion .. whose harmonic's can reach up into the upper Bass and Lower Midrange and cloud the presentation
When the servo subs remove the harmonic distortion that reaches up ... the presentation sounds cleaner ... but do to the servo's intervention can sound a bit soft
No right or wrong just different approaches like a speaker with a first order crossover which can sound smooth vs a speaker with a 4th order crossover that sounds more lively |
Audiofreekgeak,
The DD15 is a great sub and my experience could not be more opposite of yours. It blends wonderfully with Soundlab speakers.
No marketing pitch just two folks who love a product. I suppose system set up, room, room placement and one's subjective sound preference may be at work here. |
Sonicray, If you get a chance it would be helpful to know the lowest programmable roll-off frequency. In later iterations of DD-15 series it was 40hz-- too high for some systems. |
Wondering if you have also owned the DDplus? Or your compairisons based on your DD15, Tell us more based on what you have evidence of. My next purchase will be based on what I hear guided by you Goners direct observations and not a companys market position. That I leave to my financial advisor. |
