gdnrbob --I think that's a good idea to start a new thread. I will do that after I get my "M3's" and tune them to my room and report the results. Gary |
@bailyhill,
Nice post. And, I agree that Johnny R is one of the best dealers, as well as the Vandy method of integration.
But, I think you should start a new thread. as this is more of a Sub 3 than M5 crossover issue.
I would be interested in hearing your Apogee's. I haven't been able to hear them, but know of their performance, and unfortunately, don't have the room to give them. But, hey, knowledge is power.😉
I, too, will be ordering the Sub 3's from Johnny in the, hopefully, near future. I also hope he will come to my home and set them up.
Bob |
@bailyhill great ! The new 3 is killer
the Apogee stage work quite well with the now discontinued model 2 sub, so you should have no issues :-) enjoy the music |
I was looking for a Subwoofer for my Apogee Scintilla One Ohm speakers that would do justice to these top ends. Based on the design, this forum and the recommendation of Johnny R, I have taken the plunge on a pair of Model 3 Subwoofers. Should have them in about a month. I was very impressed with the sound, and also the way that they are connected (HP filters) to minimally molest the top end, and the equalizer being analog in the base to equalize in most rooms. I have any two corners that will pass the WAF test, so being confident that they will perform there was very big. Johnny R really knows his stuff and is a pleasure to do biz with. Thanks for the tip on this forum. I will let you know how it all works out. |
That's cool. I tend to get things backward from time to time. :-) |
Oh, noo.
I meant I did agree with you.
B |
Hey Bob, I guess we can agree to disagree, right? The main thing is we both love Vandersteen. It's all good my friend.
Tim |
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So, I am breaking in a Class D amp. I have no issues whatsoever with the amp and the M5-HP crossovers. The amp is spec’d at 10K ohms input impedance, and I have set the M5-HPs to 5K ohms, with excellent results. The amp itself is going through some changes as it breaks in, but I am optimistic, as I once had the mono block version of this stereo amp in my system for a few weeks and enjoyed it. I will say, though, that it and my class A/B SS amp sound very different from one another. Each has/had its strengths and weaknesses. With my limited budget, I have to accept that there will be some compromises. But overall, I am happy with it. And I can carry it under one arm!!!! |
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(((I will say I’m a bit surprised about RV’s questioning of a manufacturer’s specified input impedance not being as stated, )))
It’s not about trust or questioning or what the input impedance spec in the owners manual reads.Its what the voltmeter reads plain and simple.
The reason this is misunderstood is some amps have
J fet drivers some bipolars which measure slightly different at 1000 vs100 hz or 80 hz
((The absolute only way is to confirm is with an AC Volt meter not an owners manual))
Install red and black voltmeter probes in amp speaker binding posts turn down volume in pre amp play Vandertones CD track 27 1000 hz with Voltmeter set to AC millivolts adjust pre-amp volume slowly up till it reads 1V AC then play track 30 for 100 hz Vandy five, seven, Quatros, etc or track 31 for 80 hz Vandy 2W 2WQ or new Sub 3 if your xover dip switches are set properly or installed at amp factory it should read .707 If not start from the begining adjust dip switches untill you have it set properly.I also think you are fine with the Rogue Pharaoh if you confirm above or your amp was done at Rogue and measured as above.
Best,JohnnyR,Vandersteen Dealer
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gdnrbob,
My Class D hybrid, is the Rogue Pharaoh. it has a 40k.input impedance, which is spot on. I talked to Richard V. about my amp and his biggest concern was if I had the proper pre in, power out connections. Which I have. His main concern for proper input impedance is not to overtax the subs internal amplifier with an incorrect crossover point. I'm not an electronics expert, but I tend to think that the only way the M-5 crossovers won't work with a given amplifier is if said amp had an input impedance outside of the M-5's capabilities for proper adjustment.
I will say I'm a bit surprised about RV's questioning of a manufacturer's specified input impedance not being as stated, specifically class D, as he never once mentioned this to me considering the multiple phone conversations we had. I also talked to Rogue's electronic engineer at length about pairing their amp and Vandersteen's crossovers and subs and he found no fault with this setup either.
Ralph Karsten is a fine designer, but the guy's at Rogue are no slouches either and have been working with Class D for quite some time. I trust their judgement as the proof is in the pudding as far as my system is concerned. |
I would do as Mr. V. said, and check to be sure the impedance is acceptable for the crossovers.
The only other Agon'er I would contact would be Ralph Karsten (atmasphere). I am sure he would know if there will be issues with impedance. (And, I know he is working on a Class D amp, as well).
Bob |
@mr_m - Thanks, that was helpful. Since my pre is tubed, our systems have a bit in common. I think I am going ahead with the amp. Hopefully, it will all work together. |
I have a Integrated hybrid Class D amp using a 2Wq sub, (second sub coming shortly) with M5-HP crossovers, and the combination has been working flawlessly for over 2 years now. Richard V. isn't particularly fond of class D amps driving his speakers. He prefers tubes. Had this conversation with him over the phone a while back. |
Sorry I never posted the outcome here. I thought I had. Anyway, the issue was that my M5-HPs, which I bought used, were custom units with 10 rather than 8 dip switches (I should change my rating on the Audiogon seller, who never mentioned this to me). Using the sticker on the case of the crossover was indeed the correct way to use these with my 2Wqs.
That's the good news. For about a year, I was really enjoying the system. Then, earlier this month, catastrophic failure. The amp died on me, complete with sparking flashes and un-welcomed smells. As I decided after the last repair/upgrade, I am done with this amp (and it's builder). I need something I can actually lift on my own. It weighs 64 lbs., I need something under 40 lbs. And good sound would be nice, too.
The big problem is that I am not working, and my budget is really limited.
Many owners of Ohm speakers, like me, report excellent results using high powered class D amps. I know someone who builds these amps, and he has offered me a powerful stereo class D amp for a reasonable price. I have actually heard the monoblock version of the same amp in my system and liked it very much. I know a few owners of these amps and the general impression is excellent.
The problem is compatibility with the M5-HP. I spoke to RV, and he was emphatic that class D amps would be a bad match for the M5-HPs. Something about the actual input impedance being different than the published spec. He advised avoiding class D, but said if I went that way, to check the impedance myself with the meter and Vandertones. Note that when I had the monoblock version in my system few years back, I do not recall any issues with the M5-HPs set at the spec'd input impedance of those amps.
So, I guess what I'd like to know is, do any of you use the M5-HPs with a class D amp, or know someone who does? How has that worked out? I am in a real bind here, so I'd appreciate your thoughts. I am hesitant to buy used, and most amps I can afford, even used, are too heavy for me. Thanks!
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@drew_k Going one setting lower on the crossover should do the trick. Can’t hurt to open them up and give it a shot. Good Luck☘️ |
@drew_k ,
I think Johnny would be the best person to ask. You can PM him if you want.
Bob |
I had a question related to setting the M5-HP boxes for use with high efficiency main speakers (97db). The knob on the 2wq only goes to 94db. (So when you turn up the volume, the main speakers get louder earlier than the subs.) If you want more bass than the 94 dB setting allows, would you set them to the next lower impedance rating (for example, 50k to 30k) so that the multimeter reads 0.8xx instead of 0.7xx?
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After speaking with Ray at Vandersteen and John Rutan, my impression is that there have been only minor running changes to the M5-HP over the years. Mostly things like wire connections and dressing, and I think there may have been a revision of the recommended dip-switch settings when using the M5-HPs with the 2W series subwoofers. Other than that, I can't say. |
I've had my M5-HP for years. With as much as Richard upgrades his wares I wonder if the crossover has undergone any substantive upgrades. Anyone know?? |
Glad to hear that the problem has been isolated.
I would be interested in hearing what Mr. V. finds in those M5-HP's. I didn't think there was anything that could go wrong with them.
Bob |
John Rutan's the man..... always so helpful and knowledgeable..... one of a kind. (though kudos to Richard V as well)
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BOOyah! Progress! After many months of head-scratching and curse-muttering, I can finally see (hear?) some light at the end of the tunnel.
Last night, John Rutan of Audio Connection stopped by, and he worked methodically through my lack of bass issue. In the end, it looks like it might actually be the M5-HP crossovers themselves. He installed the X-2 temporary crossover and, using the 33K jumper setting, my bass was back! All of it! So, as per John, the next step is to send off my M5-HPs to Hanford for a thorough checkup. Perhaps, John suggested, the caps in the M5-HPs have failed. Since I purchased these M5-HPs used in 2012, I have no idea how old they actually are. There also is some confusion over the jumper settings for the M5-HPs when used with the 2W series subs, as the settings were apparently revised, most likely after my M5-HPs were produced. So, we shall see. I hope to ship the M5-HPs out tomorrow. But at least I got the system up and running again with the X-2 John was kind enough to lend me. |
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Great thread. I learned the multimeter method from John Ruttan to setting my M5HPs.
i have a related question. If a reading of .707 is the target with track 31 (80 has tone for 2WQ), would a reading above that (say .800) result in more or less bass? Just curious. |
@tomic601 - Turns out, RV was on vacation the week everything went wrong. I had called Vandersteen Audio and got accurate answers to the questions I asked, but it wasn't the same as getting the complete story from The Man Himself. |
@gdnrbob - (why doesn't your handle ever show up when I type @?) The box was intact, but could have been tossed about a bit without destroying the box, and there is no strapping or heavy corner guards. That's why I offered to pay the difference for double boxing. The amp is en route. I will report back when it is returned to me. If all goes well, I think a full review of the upgrade is in order. |
great call talking to RV
have to triple emphasize gdnrbob input on double boxing ! |
@bondmanp
That's good to hear. Was the packaging damaged on the amps when you received them?-Like somebody dropped it?
If you don't go the double box route, at least have him get some triple wall cardboard boxes. Those Home Depot double wall boxes are just too thin.
Also, if the amps are unwieldy (heavy/large), have him add strapping and/or corner bracing.
When manufacturers put 100lb items in thin cardboard, and expect UPS to move them gently, that is when problems happen. After all, if you are carrying boxes all day, the last thing you want is an unwieldy box.
That is why I like strapping. It give the delivery man a way to hold onto the box.
B |
@gdnrbob - It won't cost me anything. The amp's builder is covering shipping and the repairs. He is a stand up guy. If I had to pay for the shipping and additional repairs, you might have a point, although, based on what I heard with the broken amp, I have pretty high expectations for the repaired one. The only thing I might pay for is to have it double boxed this time. |
Hmm, do you think it is worth it? Will the repair cost that much?
Knowing how these things play out, I bet UPS will blame the amp builder for not packaging correctly.
Though I never had an issue of a box being so roughly treated that the internals were knocked apart. Was it double boxed?
When I sent my amps to SMc Audio, Pat recommended that I double box and put lots of extra packing to absorb a shock should it drop 5 feet.-Which is the worst case scenario if your box is the first being deposited into an airplane cargo hold with no other boxes to cushion the blow.
B |
Ok - Progress!
Last night I spoke to Richard V. It was very worthwhile, as he explained a number of things to me about the M5-HPs. In particular, he told me that a dead battery will not result in diminished bass output, and that the the problem did indeed seem to be the amp and the input resistance. It was a great call, and took place before I spoke to the amp's builder. Richard felt, as I did, that it was just too coincidental that both the M5-HPs would have their batteries die or fail at the very same time, and at the same time I put the amp back in the system.
Prior to my call with the amp's builder, I snapped a few pics of the inside of the amp and sent them to him. Well, that was the problem: The amp was knocked around a bit by UPS, and stuff had come loose (I had very little idea what I was looking at, but the pics showed everything). Specifically, the transistor bridge was no longer connected to the heat sinks. These of course overheated, and caused a chain-reaction of other issues. So, the amp is going back to have the damage repaired and everything reattached properly.
So, there is light at the end of the tunnel. Diagnosis is 90% of the battle. Now, who do I speak to at UPS to get compensated? ;-) |
(((I doubt my amp builder would get the input impedance wrong; he is a bit of a wiz at these things))))
Bond
I believe that you are totally convinced that he is a real genius and
that he thinks its the correct spec.
Problem is many amps with a given input impedance may be using use a
bipolar driver transistor instead of a JFET and have a varied Input impedance at some frequencies.
This then sends a leaner signal into the 2WQs feed forward design
This is why I have been trying to tell you
You really have to get a new AC voltmeter meter and confirm the impedance with the directions I gave you above.
Only the meter will know whats right.
JohnnyR
PS pop into the store and ill show you how to do it in 3 to 5 min
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@bondmanp ,
It sounds like you are doing this the right way.
I, too, had my amps worked on and when they came back, I wasn't informed that they had lowered the impedance considerably (like 100K to 20K), so, of course, the M5-HP's needed to be adjusted. Unfortunately, they only go to 22K ohms in balanced. The bass is just a teeny bit shy, but acceptable. In conversation with Johnny, it seems Mr. V. doesn't want to go to any lower setting-I forget why.
If the batteries were near the end, and you disconnected them for a prolonged period, then they possibly were drained by not having another source (your amp) to keep the crossovers charged.
Just thinkin'...
B
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@gdnrbob - In 2012 I had Lithium batteries installed. Date in Sharpie for replacement is 2022. Batteries have expiration date of 2020, so I was hoping they would last past 2018.
@mr_m - I am sure of nothing. This would be the first time I replace batteries since I bought the M5-HPs. @tomic601 - (Atomic! I get it!) I tend to agree with you. Here is a sequence of changes in my system:
I was really digging the sound of my system, including the 2Wqs, when I upgraded cables connecting my DAC to my pre. This was in June of 2017, IIRC. The cables were a definite improvement, although I did notice a slight reduction in overal bass output. I chalked it up to cable differences and resolved to increase the output of 2Wqs as soon as I had some time (the controls are not that accessible, and I mass load the 2Wqs, so it is a bit of a project to move everything around). Before I had gotten to adjusting the levels of the 2Wqs, my amp croaked on me. After speaking with the designer/builder of the amp, I decided to send it in for repairs and upgrades. The upgrades included almost all new interior parts (circuit board, transformer, wiring, etc.). This took three months (don't ask), so for three months, the 2Wqs and M5-HPs sat unpowered and disconnected.
When the amp finally came back last week, I connected everything, and adjusted the M5-HPs to 20k (single ended) to reflect the change in input impedance of the upgraded amp from 10k to 22k (Johnny's concerns notwithstanding, I doubt my amp builder would get the input impedance wrong; he is a bit of a wiz at these things). While the upgraded amp has much to offer over the amp as it was before, the bass is just MIA. I know some additional burn-in time might be needed, but this is extreme absence of bass below ~150Hz. If I max out the bass control on my preamp, I get an acceptable level of bass, but it lacks punch and extension. Doing that did, at least, allow me to determine that the 2Wqs are functioning, as I could feel very slight cab vibrations.
OTOH, since the old in-line filters and my speakers run full range have marginally better bass (but still nowhere near acceptable), I do suspect the M5-HPs as well.
I am scheduled for a call with the amp builder tonight, who suggests that the amp may not be properly biased for my system. Not sure how this could affect the bass output. Once I have the amp squeared away, I will focus on the M5-HP battery replacements. |
The DBS battery has zip to do with output
they bias or form the dialectric and are not in the circuit
a dead battery will effect sound but not volume
you have other issues
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@mr_m What provoked me to open up my M5-HPs were a loss of output from my subs. Once I played music with lots of deep bass and heard a lack of it I realized the crossover batteries were shot.
You may also be right about the batteries charging dielectric as Richard was in on the development of dbs with Bill Low.
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Are you sure the possible exhausted batteries can cause output level problems? I was under the impression that the batteries, like Audioquest's DBS battery packs had more to due with the dielectric of the signal thru the interconnects. More of an SQ problem. Not output. |
Yup, 2012 batteries are probably kaput. Don't they have the expiration year written on them? All the ones I have, have a date written in magic marker, so no question when to replace.
B |
@audioconnection - Well, the amp was modded by the original manufacturer, so I will have a conversation with him about the input stage. Once I have this conversation with the manufacturer, I will re-evaluate and look into battery replacement. Thanks! |
Harbour Freight has nice big red 23 dollar Voltmeter.
It sounds like your meter is shorting your amp's speaker outputs provoking it into protection.
You need to find out where this newly modified amps input impedance really is.
We have seen modifiers install transformers at the input stage,
changing the amps input impedance thinking they are making a masterpiece and muck up the whole picture.
Also, your older pre-owned Hi pass units 2012 batteries should be changed immediately and have the 10-year lithium Batteries installed by Vandersteen or a real tech,..and performance verified.
Best JohnnyR
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@hifiman5 - it is possible, but what a coincidence that they both seemed fine when I pulled the main amp for the upgrade, and are both dead three months later upon the amp's return. Also, even though I got better bass out the mains run full range, the level of bass was still way down from what AI have heard these speakers do when run full range in the past, before the amp upgrade.
But if all else fails, and after the amp has run in some more, I will have to try new batteries. But with the soldering, that's a real PITA. |
@bondmanp Be willing to bet you need new batteries in the M5-HP! Your batteries may not be dead but could be too weak to work effectively. The next time I replace mine, I am gonna send Vandersteen two Duracell Quantums. |
@mr_m - Oops, I think you are correct. Brain fade, there. I will dial the level control back up tonight. Could be at least a contributing factor. |
@audioconnection - I started with the preamp volume set to zero, and the protection circuit still engaged, before I had a chance to increase the volume. I am one of those few who RTFM.
I began to think that there was something wrong with the M5-HPs, and they would have to go in for service (lithium batteries installed in 2012, so probably not two dead batteries at the same time). I retained the in-line 10K filters I had used prior to acquiring the M5-HPs for such a situation. I put them in and got more bass out of the 2Wqs than with the M5-HPs set to 10K. That is puzzling.
I raised the bass level on my preamp (those rarely used tone controls do come in handy!), and got sufficient, if not ideal in quality, bass output. I was able to determine that the 2Wqs are indeed working and generating sound. I got similar results with multiple source components.
What this means is that, I think, the new amp is not putting out much bass. Hopefully this is a burn-in issue, but I will confirm with the amp’s builder today. Of course, this does not explain why the in-line filters offered so much more bass output than the M5-HPs set to 10k.
If I am wrong about the amp, I will give you a call, Johnny. Thanks for all the assistance. Ditto everyone else here. |
What the sticker says is for 100 hz
one setting down is 80 hz
The meter confirmes the above procedure.
Every time you change setting start again trk 27 with 1 v .ac.then use track 31 for 80 hz.
Call me later if you're going nuts.
JR
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Bond,
the instructions below
the part you missed that engaged the protection
If you go to Vandersteen website under resources download the Vandertones make a CD or file
((((((((((((((((((((((((( turn preamp volume down.)))))))))))))))))))))
track 27 is 1000 hz track 31 is 80 HZ get a Voltmeter set to AC Volts looks like a sideways s snake and connect probes clipped to amps speaker posts Red is Plus Black is Minus
Play track 27 and slowly raise preamps Volume up till Volt meter says 1 V AC then play track 31 if your dips are set right it should now read.707
once you get it set a few days of run in should sound great again.
JohnnyR
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Bondmanp,
You mentioned dialing back one the efficiency knob back to 85db. Shouldn't you be going up to 86, 89, or 90db to produce more output from the 2Wq? That's what I did to mine to increase bass output. If I'm wrong, I have then set my sub incorrectly. |
