Glad to hear that the problem has been isolated.
I would be interested in hearing what Mr. V. finds in those M5-HP's. I didn't think there was anything that could go wrong with them.
Bob |
I've had my M5-HP for years. With as much as Richard upgrades his wares I wonder if the crossover has undergone any substantive upgrades. Anyone know?? |
After speaking with Ray at Vandersteen and John Rutan, my impression is that there have been only minor running changes to the M5-HP over the years. Mostly things like wire connections and dressing, and I think there may have been a revision of the recommended dip-switch settings when using the M5-HPs with the 2W series subwoofers. Other than that, I can't say. |
I had a question related to setting the M5-HP boxes for use with high efficiency main speakers (97db). The knob on the 2wq only goes to 94db. (So when you turn up the volume, the main speakers get louder earlier than the subs.) If you want more bass than the 94 dB setting allows, would you set them to the next lower impedance rating (for example, 50k to 30k) so that the multimeter reads 0.8xx instead of 0.7xx?
|
@drew_k ,
I think Johnny would be the best person to ask. You can PM him if you want.
Bob |
@drew_k Going one setting lower on the crossover should do the trick. Can’t hurt to open them up and give it a shot. Good Luck☘️ |
Sorry I never posted the outcome here. I thought I had. Anyway, the issue was that my M5-HPs, which I bought used, were custom units with 10 rather than 8 dip switches (I should change my rating on the Audiogon seller, who never mentioned this to me). Using the sticker on the case of the crossover was indeed the correct way to use these with my 2Wqs.
That's the good news. For about a year, I was really enjoying the system. Then, earlier this month, catastrophic failure. The amp died on me, complete with sparking flashes and un-welcomed smells. As I decided after the last repair/upgrade, I am done with this amp (and it's builder). I need something I can actually lift on my own. It weighs 64 lbs., I need something under 40 lbs. And good sound would be nice, too.
The big problem is that I am not working, and my budget is really limited.
Many owners of Ohm speakers, like me, report excellent results using high powered class D amps. I know someone who builds these amps, and he has offered me a powerful stereo class D amp for a reasonable price. I have actually heard the monoblock version of the same amp in my system and liked it very much. I know a few owners of these amps and the general impression is excellent.
The problem is compatibility with the M5-HP. I spoke to RV, and he was emphatic that class D amps would be a bad match for the M5-HPs. Something about the actual input impedance being different than the published spec. He advised avoiding class D, but said if I went that way, to check the impedance myself with the meter and Vandertones. Note that when I had the monoblock version in my system few years back, I do not recall any issues with the M5-HPs set at the spec'd input impedance of those amps.
So, I guess what I'd like to know is, do any of you use the M5-HPs with a class D amp, or know someone who does? How has that worked out? I am in a real bind here, so I'd appreciate your thoughts. I am hesitant to buy used, and most amps I can afford, even used, are too heavy for me. Thanks!
|
I have a Integrated hybrid Class D amp using a 2Wq sub, (second sub coming shortly) with M5-HP crossovers, and the combination has been working flawlessly for over 2 years now. Richard V. isn't particularly fond of class D amps driving his speakers. He prefers tubes. Had this conversation with him over the phone a while back. |
@mr_m - Thanks, that was helpful. Since my pre is tubed, our systems have a bit in common. I think I am going ahead with the amp. Hopefully, it will all work together. |
I would do as Mr. V. said, and check to be sure the impedance is acceptable for the crossovers.
The only other Agon'er I would contact would be Ralph Karsten (atmasphere). I am sure he would know if there will be issues with impedance. (And, I know he is working on a Class D amp, as well).
Bob |
gdnrbob,
My Class D hybrid, is the Rogue Pharaoh. it has a 40k.input impedance, which is spot on. I talked to Richard V. about my amp and his biggest concern was if I had the proper pre in, power out connections. Which I have. His main concern for proper input impedance is not to overtax the subs internal amplifier with an incorrect crossover point. I'm not an electronics expert, but I tend to think that the only way the M-5 crossovers won't work with a given amplifier is if said amp had an input impedance outside of the M-5's capabilities for proper adjustment.
I will say I'm a bit surprised about RV's questioning of a manufacturer's specified input impedance not being as stated, specifically class D, as he never once mentioned this to me considering the multiple phone conversations we had. I also talked to Rogue's electronic engineer at length about pairing their amp and Vandersteen's crossovers and subs and he found no fault with this setup either.
Ralph Karsten is a fine designer, but the guy's at Rogue are no slouches either and have been working with Class D for quite some time. I trust their judgement as the proof is in the pudding as far as my system is concerned. |
(((I will say I’m a bit surprised about RV’s questioning of a manufacturer’s specified input impedance not being as stated, )))
It’s not about trust or questioning or what the input impedance spec in the owners manual reads.Its what the voltmeter reads plain and simple.
The reason this is misunderstood is some amps have
J fet drivers some bipolars which measure slightly different at 1000 vs100 hz or 80 hz
((The absolute only way is to confirm is with an AC Volt meter not an owners manual))
Install red and black voltmeter probes in amp speaker binding posts turn down volume in pre amp play Vandertones CD track 27 1000 hz with Voltmeter set to AC millivolts adjust pre-amp volume slowly up till it reads 1V AC then play track 30 for 100 hz Vandy five, seven, Quatros, etc or track 31 for 80 hz Vandy 2W 2WQ or new Sub 3 if your xover dip switches are set properly or installed at amp factory it should read .707 If not start from the begining adjust dip switches untill you have it set properly.I also think you are fine with the Rogue Pharaoh if you confirm above or your amp was done at Rogue and measured as above.
Best,JohnnyR,Vandersteen Dealer
|
|
So, I am breaking in a Class D amp. I have no issues whatsoever with the amp and the M5-HP crossovers. The amp is spec’d at 10K ohms input impedance, and I have set the M5-HPs to 5K ohms, with excellent results. The amp itself is going through some changes as it breaks in, but I am optimistic, as I once had the mono block version of this stereo amp in my system for a few weeks and enjoyed it. I will say, though, that it and my class A/B SS amp sound very different from one another. Each has/had its strengths and weaknesses. With my limited budget, I have to accept that there will be some compromises. But overall, I am happy with it. And I can carry it under one arm!!!! |
|
|
Hey Bob, I guess we can agree to disagree, right? The main thing is we both love Vandersteen. It's all good my friend.
Tim |
Oh, noo.
I meant I did agree with you.
B |
That's cool. I tend to get things backward from time to time. :-) |
I was looking for a Subwoofer for my Apogee Scintilla One Ohm speakers that would do justice to these top ends. Based on the design, this forum and the recommendation of Johnny R, I have taken the plunge on a pair of Model 3 Subwoofers. Should have them in about a month. I was very impressed with the sound, and also the way that they are connected (HP filters) to minimally molest the top end, and the equalizer being analog in the base to equalize in most rooms. I have any two corners that will pass the WAF test, so being confident that they will perform there was very big. Johnny R really knows his stuff and is a pleasure to do biz with. Thanks for the tip on this forum. I will let you know how it all works out. |
@bailyhill great ! The new 3 is killer
the Apogee stage work quite well with the now discontinued model 2 sub, so you should have no issues :-) enjoy the music |
@bailyhill,
Nice post. And, I agree that Johnny R is one of the best dealers, as well as the Vandy method of integration.
But, I think you should start a new thread. as this is more of a Sub 3 than M5 crossover issue.
I would be interested in hearing your Apogee's. I haven't been able to hear them, but know of their performance, and unfortunately, don't have the room to give them. But, hey, knowledge is power.😉
I, too, will be ordering the Sub 3's from Johnny in the, hopefully, near future. I also hope he will come to my home and set them up.
Bob |
gdnrbob --I think that's a good idea to start a new thread. I will do that after I get my "M3's" and tune them to my room and report the results. Gary |
