Uptone EtherRegen

It's not very productive to see such a divided crowd regarding this devise.
Some people get benefit from it and a few others try to explain how it cannot possibly work.
Kind of leaves me with having to try it on loan, or money back guarantee.

"droberson02, isn’t audiosciencereview actually the opposite of pseudo science? They’re actually quantifying w/ measurements, or at least attempting to, while the other camp’s argument is "well it sounds better to my ears you cant measure emotion etc" I have no dog in this fight as I believe measurements aren’t everything but just thought that was kind of an ironic statement"

Sure there’s a middle ground, but it’s a misrepresentation to say that if you don’t believe in someone’s measurements, and interpretation of those measurements, that you’re relying on emotion. Part of science is empirical evidence with repeatable results, to observe and classify, even if you can’t completely explain things. Pseudo-science boxes you in to a limited set of conclusions. Just my opinion after many years of experience in audiophilia, most recently with a very high-end server that made a huge difference, while so many asserted it couldn’t (they’re such experts you know ;).

Not that the "other camp" couldn’t measure and quantify; I believe they could. But at some point you have to prioritize limited time. That said, I noticed someone attached Swenson’s white paper, which does explain some things.

The jitter reduction ultimately occurs at the DAC although it’s done so by controlling "pollution" of the DAC from the switch.

Yes, so as long as the DAC does its job the amount of "pollution" is not relevant unless it causes dropouts or stuttering. Simple test hook up the device if the DAC works without problems fine, now remove the device if the DAC still works without problems then there isn’t enough "pollution" on your wire to matter. It’s actually the software in the streamer that deals with the IP/TCP from the switch. The DAC and  streamer software or /OS negotiate the clock not the switch and DAC. 

Jitter and clock phase noise are different ways of quantifying the same phenomenon. Jitter is measurement in time, phase noise is in frequency.
Mathematically the relationship is quantified so engineers designing digital components, DACs, ADCs can filter the jitter/phase noise. Modern DACs even cheap ones do a good job of this.  

@djones51 

Congratulations you added something to the thread that I can agree with. The jitter reduction ultimately occurs at the DAC although it's done so by controlling "pollution" of the DAC from the switch.

This switch bang for the buck is only beaten by the late Tim Mrocks total contact in my experience. Well recorded live music events on you tube , mind blowing sound quality in my system with this switch. Tonight I'm listening to Hauser playing with many guests in an amphitheatre in Pula. Wow! amazing acoustics! Amazing music.

@lancelock

One of these days (post social distancing now?) I will make it down finally to hear your stuff.

It looks like you have nothing but some of the best gear I have heard running down there these days and a lot of solid thought and research went into it. 

Frankly, I fear if I hear your setup, upgrade fever could set in. That can be expensive! 😳

It would be interesting to know if anyone uses this device with a Benchmark DAC and if so how much difference there is in that case. 

I have had since early January. I would say that is the best bang for the buck upgrade that you will ever make. This was confirmed by 2 other experienced audiophiles.  Both have purchased an ER. If you haven’t heard it and make negative comments, then I would say that is the definition of ignorance. They offer a money back guarantee, but I’ll bet 90% would keep it. I had to listen to my music collection again and it was much more engaging. That’s how much of a difference this switch made. 

Networks and USB carry only the electric signal needed to represent the bits. Computer protocols used assure each bit is transmitted and received 100% accurately. Otherwise no application that relies on them could work at all. There is no audio signal. Just the parts needed to construct an audio signal downstream (by the DAC).

The DAC is where the bits are assembled and used to create an analog signal that represents the music. To do that the right bits must be converted at exactly the right time. Some DACs do this much better than others but the technology to do it well is readily available for modest cost in many but not all cases these days.

Noise in the signal used directly by the D2A process can have a negative effect in the resulting sound. Less noise in the electric circuit is always a good thing. With a wireless connection, the streaming device and associated DAC , the devices actually involed in producing the " music signal" are isolated from any noise in the wired portion of the network out to the internet, etc.

Beats me, you addressed me first sugar plum.

I appreciate the tone of your post. With all due respect, you don’t get it. Let me repeat it: DAC reclocks the audio signal. Network and USB signal, that carries the audio signal, do NOT get reclocked by the DAC
In other words digital signal is represented by a electrical pulse which can be affected by emi/rfi and the like that causes jitter before and after received by the network player so the reclocker (does just that) reclocks the signal and sends the better signal to the dac. The dac clock can only preserve what's received and hence can't correct the signal received. As it receives a better signal then produces a improved sound. 
If you believe that any “competently designed” DAC (a cheap $50 China DAC for example, that ASR mob says measures really good), magically solves any issues upstream (streamer, network, USB path), then so be it. Keep that Magic DAC Special Edition MK4, and be happy with it being fed crap. You are missing out.

Peace out. I have said enough. I am not sure why I am spending my time trying to convince someone that cannot possibly be convinced, let alone be curious to try

I leave the counting to you my sweet pea. 

So much debate about what this product does. Go to their website and read all about it.
https://uptoneaudio.com/products/etherregen

Then go to this site and read 35 pages, nearly all praises. I've had the ER for nearly nine weeks. The improvement in sound is just phenomenal. No double-blind test needed. Once you hear it, you won't want to be without it. Your ears don't lie.
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/57519-uptone-audio-etherregen-listening-impressions/

No, clock only comes into play at the DAC where the bits must be converted at the right time to make an analog signal that represents the music.

All bits on the network are the same and protocols ensure all bits get transmittted 100% correctly. If not then there is a defect. No network based application like your browser accessing a remote website could work at all otherwise.

My understanding is that noise introduced in the Signal to the DAC can affect the timing needed to convert to analog ie make sure the bits get converted to analog and transmitted downstream at the right time. Jitter is the measurement used to quantify that error. Noise might be introduced anywhere upstream on the device,network, or other devices in the circuit. and make its way to the signal input to the DAC. But the point is wired or wireless the bits make it 100% correctly across the network always unless there is a defect in the chain somewhere. Its the D/A process where normal noise levels can have an effect by not converting the right things at the right time which results in audible effects if beyond a certain magnitude. Dacs like Benchmark that reclock address that problem in exactly the right place immediately prior to conversion.

So I am not saying this device cannot make a difference. Rather, that results likely vary case to case and there are ways to address any negative effects optimally by reclocking properly in the DAC prior to conversion. Also wireless connections do not suffer from the same noise issues as devices in a wired circuit. Not to say anything is perfect though.

I mention Benchmark mainly as a vendor that has blazed trails and implemented a widely acclaimed reference model for getting things right ie addressing jitter where it matters most, when the digital signal is comverted to analog. Many DACS even for modest cost do a very good job of this these days whereas this was not the case say 5-10 years ago.

Dow Jones: Your Google Machine works! But that’s about the extent of your knowledge.

I cannot help but observe: have you counted the number of your posts in this thread, on a product that you have zero interest in trying for yourself? Like that other thread. And the one before that. And on so on. Why? Nothing to do sunshine? Dude! Get a hobby. Take up sewing for example 😂🤦‍♂️

Jitter and clock phase noise are different ways of quantifying the same phenomenon. Jitter is measurement in time, phase noise is in frequency.
Mathematically the relationship is quantified so engineers designing digital components, DACs, ADCs can filter the jitter/phase noise. Modern DACs even cheap ones do a good job of this.  Of course this is information in the packets it has nothing to do with the clock in the ethernet wire, once the packet arrives that timing is gone the packets are then in memory. Only the clock embedded in the signal works with the DACs clock. 

this is not about "jitter reduction". It is about reducing leakage (both high-impedance and low-impedance) and reducing clock phase-noise.

@mapman 

All is good here, listening to a lot of music these days. Since I’m not an engineer, I won’t be giving any satisfactory reasons for the better sound except those indispensable tools, my ears. Like you say perhaps reclocking, reduced jitter, noise, I don’t exactly know for sure. I hope you and your family are safe. 

And that’s perfectly fine. Your money, your decision. I realize six hundred buck may be a lot of money for some. All good.

There is definitely clock involved in network digital transmission. And there is also definitely clock involved with a USB connection. I don't think people realize that the USB and network signal does not get reclocked by the DAC. What they reclock on the DAC is the audio signal that is transported via Ethernet then USB. This has also independent of the isolation of the DAC.

Then there is also leakage current. Low impedance and high impedance. All the crap that goes on in your network leaks into your audio.

Wifi on the other hand introduces other issues. There in an antenna to get that signal, and that antenna, along with its (likely) crap PSU, May introduce its own electrical noise / interfere/ leakage current. 

OK but there is no clock involved with a network connection, only with a digital audio connection to DAC where the digital signal is converted to analog to make the time-based signal for music.

Granted any computer devices can generate more or less noise as it does it’s work so that can come into play on any computer or streaming device.

Like I said, I will stick to wireless network connections to avoid noise from network wires altogether, so I have no need for this.

In any case I do not have time or money to try things unless I understand the theory or basis for which something works and how that would apply to my particular case, but that’s just me.

Gotta decide what to try or not somehow. Hunches alone don’t cut it for me.  People determine all kinds of things "sound better" to them....who has time and money to try everything?

Hey @mapman  --- this is not about "jitter reduction". It is about reducing leakage (both high-impedance and low-impedance) and reducing clock phase-noise. Read more carefully, it's all up there. Better yet, try it for yourself! Without trying, everything is just a theory

...although its beyond me how any "noise"/jitter reduction can be done on a network connection to a streamer and persist on to the DAC.

Mystery to me there......maybe I’ll read the product site some more when I get some time.

I suppose its possible better switches provide a better signal to the streaming device attached to the network which perhaps might make the network card or other circuits work less and produce less noise there, kinda similar in theory to how some USB attached devices might produce less noise streaming which might help there. In that case the results would likely vary widely from one streamer device to another and do more in some cases than others, perhaps nothing in some as well.

Very hard to predict.....

Does not sound like it would substitute for a good jitter resistent DAC though.

Does seem you pay a premium for this versus other network switches, not so much perhaps versus reclocking devices that are only used for computer audio applications between streamer and external DAC, but those do seem totally different.

I use and prefer wireless connections only for computer audio, no wired ethernet. Wireless connections, assuming proper bandwidth, work very well in regards to noise (dead quiet) and overall quality I find because your streamer or computer has no wired network connection to anything. I’d say wires are best avoided whenever possible to help isolate devices and minimize noise and for best possible sound quality, assuming adequate bandwidth which is not an issue with WIfi I find these days for either audio and/or even most video streaming.

Hey Lance, hope all is well.

At a glance, I read the product website and find it very confusing. Network switches normally have nothing to do with sound quality, they merely provide additional ports for data connections.

Seems its labeled an audiophile switch because it does some reclocking and jitter reduction prior to the DAC. There are other devices that do that as their sole function providing various digital audio (not computer) connection types and are not necessarily switches providing additional physical connections, , but a network switch that does that also.... sure why not.


If you hear a difference in detail/noise level, seems to be that would likely be because the device is reducing jitter prior to the DAC which I think is the main benefit claimed. That is always a good thing if so.

Some modern DACs like Benchmark have effective reclocking/jitter reduction processing built in. Many others not.

The price is not bad if the device in fact does a good job at jitter reduction.

If it were me, I would ideally want jitter reduction to occur within the DAC itself. The further upstream that occurs prior, the more chance of jitter getting introduced again prior to the DAC which is where it matters. NEtork connections usually go to streaming devices not DACs, however of course most streaming devices have a DAC built in which I think would be best in the case of this device. If an external DAC were used with the streamer, jitter could get reintroduced between streamer and DAC. COuld happen within a streamer with built in DAC as well. That’s why I think it best for jitter reduction to be handled immediate prior to the A/D conversion that is the prime function of a DAC.

This could be a helpful read for anyone looking for some clarifications/explanations about the etherregen device.

My understanding is that this is the "white paper" that the engineer/designer has published.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0660/6121/files/UpTone-J.Swenson_EtherREGEN_white_paper.pdf?v=1583429386

The ultimate measuring device and the one that really matters is the human ear.

Besides what difference would it make if a switch lowered noise?  The place to measure noise is on the DAC output or even the amp since that's where audible noise would make a difference. If there is a measurable amount of noise there then the first place to look is the dac or amp they must not be filtering properly. 

Then again this is about an expensive switch that lowers noise better than an off the shelf switch which is fairly easy to measure. 

How sweet of you I don't think I've posted on a cable in months. No, not everything is snake oil, cables, servers, dacs, amps, they can all sound different. The question is is different necessarily  more transparent or better. 

djones511,608 posts04-16-2020 1:06pmOf course you did sweet pea just as I knew what you would say.

Yes sunshine. I have read stuff you wrote thousands of times.

As a matter of fact, all your posts are about how everything is snake oil, placebo, etc. etc. Not just this Switch, but everything that you post on. Cables, servers, DACs, you name it. You are posting on all of them. Remember the Innuos thread?

Well then you know the placebo effect is real. It does not mean someone made something up it is not a derogatory term as some people take it. 

djones51"Should be your not you are."

Yes thank you for pointing that out English is not my first language but one of 8 depending how you count because some are dialects of others that I converse in and I have trouble sometime with contracted words and also what you call in English "homonyms." However things like engineering, science (biology, chemistry, electronics, physics) and other thinks like ignorance, bias or what you mistakenly call "placebo" are fairly easily understood in any language.

Should be your not you are.

justify you’re claim so actually

You have no idea if I have done a controlled double blind test of this item, have you?

djones51"Never said people couldn't enjoy. I said if you understand how switches work you would question the claims made about it."

But that is not really what you mean which is not question but denigrate, disqualify, and reject without doing any basic, personal, first-hand exploration other than reading an obviously biased and angry review so you conclude it is placebo to those who enjoy it without any evidence or science to justify you're claim so actually the "placebo effect" is on you because you have somehow convinced your self beyond any doubt of your belief using only second or third hand second rate information.

Of course you did sweet pea just as I knew what you would say.

Of course Dow Jones. I knew exactly what you were going to say. it never fails. 

As I said, keep questioning ....

Never said people couldn't enjoy. I said if you understand how switches work you would question the claims made about it. I am sure hundreds if not thousands of people who use these devices have no idea how ethernet, modems, routers, switches, hubs, nodes actually work, doesn't mean they can't enjoy their placebo high.

Keep questioning!! meanwhile, hundreds of people are actually enjoying it in their own systems, including myself.

Anyone who understands how switches work would question the claims made for this device.

Mob is the correct word for that nasty group of men 

droberson02, isn't audiosciencereview actually the opposite of pseudo science? They're actually quantifying w/ measurements, or at least attempting to, while the other camp's argument is "well it sounds better to my ears you cant measure emotion etc" I have no dog in this fight as I believe measurements aren't everything but just thought that was kind of an ironic statement

"I don't understand why some say it doesn't work."

I heard a very definite improvement in detail when my DAC was configured for Ethernet input.  There are other considerations for shared power supplies that can cancel out the isolation.  So there is a configuration element.

Another reason is bias, like the pseudo-science of the mob on audiosciencereview.com, or those who insist quality cable can't make a difference.

I am still very happy with this device. I don’t understand why some say it doesn’t work. Maybe there is more noise in my system to fix because of long cable runs and multiple switches but it makes an a very noticeable improvement. 

In this case there is no risk to try it out! I've found the etherregen to make a very noticeable improvement to my digital front end. That reviewer never had an open mind about the product, and has actually built a brand for himself shooting similar products down. His followers wouldn't be supportive of him if he thought an ethernet switch could make a difference and so his bias was already determined.

There is a large forum on Audiophile Style with countless positive experiences with the device as well as the company. Feel free to ask any questions!

I am curious about this device and may take a chance for $640.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/uptone-audio-etherregen-switch-review.10232/

One thing I would like to point out is about the review linked above that says it makes no difference. The review is scattered with sarcastic comments and hyperbole that clearly shows the reviewer set out to prove it made no difference. Maybe he is correct, but the tone of the review destroys any credibility he may bring to the table.

always curious when you see such diametrically opposed reviews. This guy like many here say they hear obvious differences. My opinion is that this device, like many, is system dependent.

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/uptone-audio-etherregen-review-and-comparison-r887/

BTW, my streamer fully buffers each and every track and wow, what a difference with the ER. Natural, 3D, musical, etc. Across the board better. Just a massive positive difference.

Does the improvement stay put if you pull the Ethernet cable feeding your streamer. What streamer are you using? I haven't seen one that has enough RAM to buffer entire tracks.

When you pull a cable and the music keeps playing it's playing from the buffer. I don't  care what they call it but it's still a buffer. I never mentioned sound quality I have never heard the device I was commenting on jinjuku post about music playing without  the cable plugged in.

@djones51
Seems like you haven't been over to the ER forum and read about how the product works. It is not a buffer. But go see for yourself. -I wondered if this product could make much of a difference in my system but it is a pretty amazing change. Can be heard by anyone. BTW, my streamer fully buffers each and every track and wow, what a difference with the ER. Natural, 3D, musical, etc. Across the board better. Just a massive positive difference. You can see my review over on AS. I couldn't imagine listening without it now. It is easily the best $640 I've spent in audio after three decades of being involved in this hobby.

It’s not magic it’s called a buffer which even a $50 netgear switch has.

https://sys.dias.ac.cy/www3/wp-content/uploads/cisco_rs_ite/CCNA-R-S_ITN/course/module5/5.3.1.8/5.3....

I purchased one off the 2nd production run. Fired up JRiver and started playback. Pulled the cable and while the music still kept magically playing (surprised their switch is so advanced!) it sounded unconnected, disassociated, Soon as I plugged the switch in veils lifted, sound stage expanded, soon as I unplugged, music still was magically playing, but dull, lifeless. Soon as I plugged the switch back in...

In case anyone is wondering, Uptone gave me a full refund. They were pleasant and very professional.