Upstream Bottlenecks, Experience, Opinions, Meitner Dac

Do you mean Meitner MA3 ? I play files on NAS and Tidal using ROON with MA3 connected to the home Netgear switch with 70 feet of CAT5. I have had in the system for two years an Uptone Audio EtherRegen and an EMM Labs NS1 (Toslink to MA3).  Both now sold as not needed with the MA3. 

Hi Delma, yes sorry ma3. Your experience is what I was hoping to hear. The Meitner gear removes some or all of the Ethernet noise tweaks. Have you changed the ps cable from stock? Thank you 

I would start with a better power cable. Especially with digital sources and DACs, well grounded cables with noise-reducing shielding will set you up with the right foundation. The Ethernet switch & cables and all will only be worth it once your streamer / server is at more of a reference stage.

If you do consider upgrading the streamer/server, consider one with a good clock and AES output. I believe EMM tends to work very well with AES vs USB, but YMMV. If keeping the Mac mini for a while, you can upgrade the USB cable if you haven’t already. That should yield just as big of results as the power cable.

Thanks bliss, makes sense. Yes, I have been using the original usb curious  cable for some time now. Along with Liederman USBe Perfect for jitter reduction. The sound is extraordinary. Will insert the Meitner tomorrow. I’ll investigate EMM. 

Sorry @bigwave1 - EMM is the reference line by Ed Meitner, and what I mention I believe also applies to you MA3, that there is good synergy with AES. 

@blisshifi , Good point. Even Johnny Rutan (Audioconnection) feels putting the best power cable on the DAC is a good move. -Though I am an Audioquest user.

Bob

we were a Meitner dealer for many years 

you must understand Meitner has a sound which is clean and detailed you maybe seeking a bit more warmth to the sound 

a good powercord footers and adding a great server may be what you need to take you to where you want to go with the Dac.

Dave and Troy

Audio intellect nj.

@bigwave1, I am using a DIY power cable with a shield and Furutech connectors.  Also using an Elgar isolation transformer (from the days when I had digital spaghetti) and the MA3 sits on a Gingko Cloud 10.

delm,

will do about the same on my end. Thanks 

@bigwave1 See you're using modded mac mini. Have you bridged firewire port as second ethernet port? This port will connect direct to Meitner. Will be superior to using the single ethernet port with switch. Also, which power supply using with mini, this makes large difference as well, I use Uptone JS2 with my mini. Also what have you done to optimize operating system? Get third party app wipe conversion, disable as many processes as possible. Disable system integrity protection, major upgrade,  Get fastest processor, I7 better than I5, run PCIe ssd vs sata.

Get rid of any usb or conversion or rendering prior to Meitner, don't complicate things here. Mini direct out to Meitner, Power cords important, power conditioning as well. Weak links are weak links, with streaming so many possible weak links!

As for switch vs. router. I added audiophile switch at one point to compare with my router/lps setup, not good, much preferred modded mini direct out to streamer. So, I'd forget about switch at this point, get lps for router, in my case over spec lps, means lps can deliver more amps than router requires. Down the road you can experiment with cleaning up ethernet feed to mini, either optical conversion or various filters. I'm presently experimenting with optical conversion via two FMC, both powered by lps, not totally convinced, but superior to audiophile switch in same position. Next experiment will be Network Acoustics Muon ethernet filter.

I'd stick with mini for now if doing or have done all mods listed above. By early fall I will be comparing my maxed out mini to custom atx motherboard build server based on Taiko Extreme standards, will tell me extent non-rendering server has on ultimate sound quality.

sns, thanks for your sincere assistance. I purchased the Mac mini in 2013, from a now out of business “Core Audio”. I believe they disabled, modded everything that was known at the time, running Audirvana. I have to say, the sound is amazing from the ripped files. I had used the firewire port when I owned an Orpheus mixing Dac. I’m now using the PueAudio Lotus 5 Dac usb to mini, Co-ax to Transport.
MM LPS, there is no indication as to what I purchased from the Core Audio people but it cost me about 1500, 8-9 years ago and it’s hard wired to the mini. I had a mini previously that was stolen in a divorce and had that one on an external ps but not hard wired. I had brought it to a Mac store for a reason I can’t remember and before I could say wait, don’t hook it to your ps, they plugged it in an sparks flew in the store and the mini was done. It was replaced and modded by the Core Audio Co again to which it is now hardwired.
If I knew how to bridge the firewire port as second Ethernet I would do it.
I may try today to power up the MA3,

The problem I have with Audirvana is I am unable to get another hd to function as the one spinning now is old. I know it’s an issue within the minis software but it’s a bit beyond me knowledge base. I have Synology Drives that are now incompatible with the newest Mac OS. The MM is often slow and I’m getting done with the boot ups and shut downs. I really can’t go down the 7-17K server path, maybe as suggested, server with AES output.
Shielded cable is grounded at both ends or one end floats, I mean the shield floats on one end or not. ? Thanks for listening.

Directions for bridging firewire port, https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/

I previously owned mini with Core Audio internal and external power supplies, diy install. I believe Core likely did operating system optimization if purchased as package direct from them. I bet you're running seriously out of date operating system with your mini. Pretty easy to update OS with Macs, although you may lose OS optimizations with update, I do know 2013 mini can run latest OS, Monterey. I run Synology NAS, no issues running with latest Mac OS.

The issues you're having with MM point to the problem with diy server, steep learning curve if not computer savvy. Audiophilestyle forum has people that can provide help. I expect you're at end of life with present MM without the OS update, everything can be resolved with OS upgrade. I'd go with OS upgrade if I were in your shoes, mini's pretty nice with full upgrades and modifications, with your Core Audio, already half way there.

SNS,

I did purchase a package from core. You are absolutely correct, the mm is out of gas. It seems with each upgrade, the machine runs slower. I don’t mind spending for and SGC or nuc plus ???, but I think u r suggesting that an optimized mm might be better sounding. Looking forward to your comparison with optical. I also appreciate your usage of other terms such as PCIe. Thanks,I’ve educated myself. 
I would even package up my present mm and lps, or purchase a new one and have it hot rodded  if I knew where to send. 
In the meantime, I’ll follow your lead over to the forum. 

@bigwave1 I'd go for upgrade of operating system to start with. Mac OS upgrades not that difficult, go to an Apple forum to learn how. Now, the one issue is since your present OS optimized in some form, may not seamlessly or even be able to do OS upgrade, in which case you bricked your MM. At this point you'd need to install new ssd with latest Mac OS installed, also doable. I could directly guide you on this via private email, can't provide any direct service to you as breaks Audiogon rules as far as selling services or products. So, best and safest path for you, assuming you brick present ssd doing OS upgrade is install of fresh OS on another ssd. This requires physically removing old ssd and installation of new ssd (ssd is your hard drive). PCIe is simply another form of ssd, not sure 2013 MM capable of using, not something to worry about at this point in any case.

So, personally, I'd keep MM and perform the OS upgrade, assuming you can diy or find someone who provides service. Ask at audiophilestyle forum as that is goto forum for streaming, dedicated to computer audio. You could also speak to Mojo Audio or Alex at Uptone audio, both have experience with MM upgrades, may be able to help you or put you in touch with someone who could.

If this all seems too daunting, you could get another server, NUC would be lateral move IMO, so would most others at sub $5k. I'd consider Sonictransporter I9 an upgrade, very nice processor and optical out built in, also has built in hard drives for storage if present Synology is too much hassle. You can simply transfer your present HD's in synology to I9. Get OpticalRendu as streamer and you have first class setup, Keep in mind this designed to be used with Roon. You could run Audirvana, but would require some diy work. This all runs $5k.

So, if prepared to spend some money, get I9 or some other server, or save yourself the money, keep MM and prepare for some diy work. While it may be possible to simply pack up MM for hotrodding, not sure I'd count on it. Best bet is the diy attempt at new OS install on present ssd. Other easy route would be to get someone to sell you new ssd with present mac OS already loaded, requires the physical removal and install of ssd, special tools required as well. Go to ifixit.com for videos and pictures that will illustrate whats required.

Wish I could help you directly, I could get that mini up and running in little time.

@bigwave1 I also own the MA3 and totally agree with @delm. Start with using the internal streamer connected to your router via Ethernet cable. The included  MConnect app’s user interface is bare bones but sounds great when streaming Tidal and Qobuz. I haven’t yet done a deep dive on Ethernet filtering/reclocking enhancements but the  MA3 sounds very good straight out of my router.
 

I found the MA3 to be sensitive to the quality of both the Ethernet cable and power cord. I use a Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Reference Ethernet cable and their Tesla Hologram D power cord. Depending on the tonal balance of the rest of your system, the Shunyata Sigma Ethernet cable will provide a tonally fuller sound at the expense of some air and sparkle compared the the SR Atmosphere X Reference. 

Power Cord will make a difference did with my Simaudio 680D. 

Forget about the recommendation of I9 and OR, forgot you have streaming dac!

Anyway, still try to get MM up and running. Another option if I were in your shoes is Antipodes K series, not the K50 as you don't need rendering capabilities. One of the other Antipodes K series is server only, can't recall the model. I believe it has two ethernet ports, perfect for going straight out to your Meitner. Or you could compare to use with audiophile switch, Antipodes or MM with bridged port> Meitner, or Antipodes/MM>switch>Meitner. The interesting thing with the two port ethernet server is ability to connect direct vs switch. Direct is most straight wire path, least chance for added noise and complexity vs switch, added complexity, possibility of less noise as audiophile switch should be less than router noise. And I believe Antipodes network port more optimized than MM firewire port, really makes comparison interesting. Now, if you absolutely require a switch in your setup, makes this all moot. I that case, any number of servers will do, with no rendering required with your server, and no two network ports are of great benefit since you're already running router AND switch. The direct connection is really only of consequence if NOT running switch like I am. I only bring this up at all because adding an audiophile switch was detrimental to sound quality in my server direct to streamer with router powered by lps.

If you do go route of replacement for MM, most any server will do, unless running dsp, something like HQPLayer which requires high processing power. Otherwise running server on LPS most critical issue.

Above posts in regard to running straight out of router may be great as well, they understand Meitner capabilities. Looks like user interface is greatest liability.

@bigwave1 

@sns 

With all respect and due deference to @sns and his demonstrated expertise with optimizing the Mac Mini, the Mac Mini is far from an optimal solution as either a server or a streamer today. It was a wonderful solution 10 years ago which "sucked less" than other options at the time. But that shouldn't be your standard.

I used to be be where you are 5ish years ago. I bought a Nucleus Plus with ssd to replace the mac mini, which improved both the server and the usb output, which were both more quiet than Mac Mini. I then purchased an Innuos Zenith Mk3 which improved (and simplified) everything. Considerably. As a server, it was quieter than the Nucleus Plus (which was quieter than the mac mini) and very stable. In fact, other than software updates, it never required rebooting. As a renderer, it actually makes the Mac Mini seem quite primitive because of the improved usb output.

I have since sold the Innuos to make room for a next level server/streamer but there are many options out there that leave the Mac Mini behind and improve upon the Nucleus and other similar nuc's.

@sns I'm not sure I agree with your passing dismissal of "audiophile network switches". It would be great to know what you tried and in what context. I have recently experienced a switch (its hardly cost effective) which elevated everything about my musical presentation. Not by a little. In fact, it was kind of embarrassing how much of the music I wasn't hearing. The switch improved the musical presentation immensely. An ethernet filter improved it a great deal more upon the previous improvements.

You can get a lot of the way there for very little money but the last 10% gets very expensive. @bigwave1 there are so many wonderful, stable and no-longer-tweaky solutions available today. Go for simple, high quality solutions. While I recognize that many people enjoy three or four different "decrapifiers", converters, stacks of linear power supplies, etc, etc its just not necessary today if the goal is exceptional sound rather than a Rube Goldberg style mousetrap.

Since @ghasley decided to speak up where I didn’t want to, I might as well just add that I concur. If possible, stop trying to eek what you can with the Mac Mini and invest in a proper streamer/server. The cost of entry is a bit high, but if you can afford to invest, it saves time and frustration on top of much improved sound quality.

It is important to understand the streaming capabilities and source input differences specific to the MA3. The internal streaming circuitry is the same as EMM LAB’s $5k NS1 stand-alone streamer. I would think (hope?) that means the MA3’s streaming performance is more on par with $5k+ external streamers vs lesser internal streamers inside most competing streaming DACs. Point being that It may take a significant investment in an external streamer/cabling/filters/reclockers/switches to better its internal streamer’s sonic performance.

Second is that the MA3 only supports PCM up to 24/192 and base-rate DSD (DSD64) via SPDIF (coax), AES/EBU, and optical while its USB and LAN inputs support PCM up to DXD frequencies (352.8/384kHz) and twice the basic DSD rate (DSD128) via DoP. Plus, only its USB and network inputs recognize and decode MQA.

Seems to me that Meitner designed the MA3 to perform best with its internal streamer and USB input (although the latter requires an external streamer or conversion unit thus making its internal streamer superfluous and lowering the MA3’s value quotient vs non-streaming DACs). 
 

All that being said, I am of course curious to read feedback from anyone actually using an external streaming solution and/or the latest SOTA LAN filters/switches reclockers (ENO for example) with the MA3 after giving its internal streamer “au naturale” a thorough audition.

The MA3 to my ears sounds better through its internal streamer/renderer than it does being streamed/rendered TO via usb from a good streamer/renderer. Same ethernet chain.

@ghasley Thanks. I suspected as much.

I'm not saying mac mini is at top of servers list, but OP already has one, only needs OS update to get it back to operable state.

Also, I suspect many have underestimated optimized and modded mini as server only. Certainly as a renderer it is sadly out of date, but as server only and modded to optimal state it is quite good. Compared to many other servers, $5k and below, I don't see liabilities, with the right hardware mini is actually superior to this crowd, biggest liability is Mac OS, even with app wipe, still more processes running than needed, even with this I'm only running at 3-5% processor ability, nearly 50% of that used for Roon. While I can't state a  comp with other servers in present system, I am getting amazing sound quality from my present streaming setup.  I do plan on comparing to extreme high end server soon, this atx motherboard server built to Taiko Extreme level of quality, best of best everything going into this diy build, including choke based power supply.

Based on you guys, I'd stick with Meitner as streamer, so only question is server vs straight out of router. I'd get lps for router in either case.

As for switches, I have extremely unique streaming setup. Modem and router  both set up close to my system, Modem>lps router(via AQ Vodka)>mini(via Vodka)>FMC(via Vodka, soon to be OpticalModule instead of generic FMC)>OpticalRendu>dac(via AQ Diamond usb). The switch I tried was RenoLabs Ultimate, OXCO clock and lps built in, this went between router and mini, diminished sound quality, less spaciousness, excessively etched images, smaller sound stage. I surmise this due to mis-matched clocks or excessive clocking. Ed Meitner states clocks should only be installed at closest point to circuit their clocking, this may be evidence of that. I also recently tried FMC (both powered by lps) and all ethernet AQ Vodka in same position as switch,  while better than switch, still no cigar, again less spacious vs router only, pretty equivalent on sound stage, imaging front. Next try will be Network Acoustics Muon filter in same position. In my setup, router direct to server best, on paper this should not be case, router vs switch or FMC noisier.

Also points to possibility Meitner MA3 may perform best direct connection to router, especially if powered by lps. I think OP should try this configuration first, then compare to other setups.

Thanks all for your well received comments and helpful insight. Therefore, would the implied generalizations run along the lines that the MA3 is effectively used as a streaming Dac with direct Ethernet input, usb for ripped files, and a dedicated server of one’s financial capability? PC’s, Isolation support, and clean electric understood. 

@bigwave1 Right. I had forgotten to mention the MA3’s sensitivity to isolation so I’m glad you did. I use a Symposium Ultra platform underneath it and found that I like the sound with Synergistic Research’s MIG 2.0s between the two.  
 

BTW I think Small Green Computer sells (or used to sell)  a server (Transporter) for use as a Roon Core/storage that has both Ethernet in and out so the need for USB for ripped files could be eliminated.

@bigwave1 all you need to connect to the ma3 is an ethernet cable. You dont need the usb cable. It access file on your local network over ethernet.

Just hooking up Meitner now. My minds been pre occupied as have dog under radiation for nasal malignancy. Have issue with Mac seeing Meitner in sound preferences, midi etc. version Big Sur. What obvious procedure don’t I see? 

Finally configured. Just hit pay dirt, holy cow. Stevie Ray, Tin Pan Alley. I’m on my way. 

Sorry about the dog, I have cats, when pets suffering not good.

Hopefully streaming stays up and running with that Mac OS. I'd still try the router direct to MA3 and see how the two compare.

Ghasley correct, forget usb, NAS on network, you have good streamer, no need for usb anywhere.

Thanks sns, I’m a retired vet so it also comes with the territory. Taking your advice and going direct. Next purchase lps for router. Have to ask, tried external hd via usb to ma3, Meitner auto switches to network, no problem, sound amazing, just what keeps the usb setting usb on the ma3? Thanks 

@dicokrum, an SGC server is on the short list  I was attempting to make sure I wasn’t short changing myself in the near future as I’m not one that swaps out gear frequently. Sure would like to remove peripherals as in external storage.  Best  DaveH

The lps on router was relatively large change IME. I don't understand why you're using usb when you have Synology NAS. NAS is network only connection, likely superior to any usb storage. I use AQ Vodka ethernet cable with my Synology NAS, better than any usb storage I've tried. Don't know why Meitner auto switches to network vs usb, other MA3 owners will have to chime in here.

When you do comparison, direct vs. mini, report back, I for one would be interested.  You could also try something like Network Acoustics Eno, Muon or Uptone Etherregen between mini (or router whether you go with direct route to Meitner or keep in mini server chain-in this case between router and mini) and Meitner. Mini or any server is generator of noise in streaming chain, lowering noise floor prior to streamers will result in greater resolution, likely more natural sound.

In response to an earlier comment.  Small Green Computer sells a music server line (sonicTransporter i5, i7 CDR, and i9) that can be your Roon Core.  Happy Wednesday

Thanks Steakster,

wally recommended using it on the ext hd. I think I’ll hold off for now. LPS for router, a couple of shielded pc’s and a Quobuz Rx and done for now. Let’s the new ingredients settle in. Thanks for your support. DaveH

Hi @sns, I don’t think you mentioned any power conditioner for your streamer chain. You may already have it and just not mentioned it, but I think it’s worth mentioning here. I have my coaxial internet cable, modem, router, and switch (and TV) all plugged into a Furman PST-8 Power Station. I scored that device for only $120 new on eBay. Then my streamer and DAC are plugged into the two noise isolated "discrete symmetrical power" outlets on a Furman IT-Ref 15i conditioner that runs the rest of my gear. I haven’t tried a linear PS for the router, but this setup sounds great to me.

@gladmo I have BPT 3.5 Signature modified with Oyaide R1 and PorterPort AC receptacles, Jantzen Z Superior 1200V caps. This is balanced transformer based pc, my preference is for transformer pc's after auditioning many others over the years. With linear power supplies everything can be plugged into same pc, no back feed contamination with lps as there is with switching power supplies. Power cables used on each individual item important as well, includes all lps.

One of things we have all learned over time is that cables, dongles, filters, switches, linear power supplies, switch mode power supplies, power conditioners, power cable, dedicated lines, etc etc etc...they ALL do something. Device A with cable B and power supply C, when combined, make an amazing difference. Device D with with dongle E, when combined, sound amazing. Then, like we all HAVE to try....we combine Devices A, B, C, D, E and presto! It sucks.

There is no substitute for trying and there is no guarantee that if one is good five are better. Try things, make notes, decide if you like it and then, if its worth it. From some of the photos I’ve seen of some systems, if you tell me my room has to look like some of those rooms to get 2% more performance, I will pass. The most important thing, have fun and enjoy your music.

@sns You've got a great conditioner, just as I suspected! Do you mind sharing which lps you use on the router? Separate, right?  Also, you mentioned a few comments earlier in this discussion that you use a AQ Vodka from modem to router.  Have you experimented with using basic 5e patch cables there instead?  Find a significant diff?  

Thanks

Someone mentioned interest in a sub $300 LPS in another thread or forum and  zerozone was mentioned.   I’m taking a gamble and placed an order in for a Zerozone 100VA 12V Ultra Low Noise LPS HI-END Linear Power Supply from China, under $200 after shipping. eBay. For router use. Will power it with a shielded Signal Cable.

@ghasley , you are so correct, so many variables they could ultimately have a net negative effect. Lots to try and notes to take. Beware of analysis paralysis. 

@gladmo I have Netgear Nighthawk R7000 router, using TeraDak 12v 4amp lps. More than enough amps, been running for at least couple years 24/7, runs just warm to  touch.

On modem front, experimented with various setups. I'm lucky in that my cable entrance is in my dedicated audio room. I have 26' long room, modem originally at far end of room, opposite of audio system. So I tried various generics, can't recall all the iterations, 5,6,7 I think. Then I went to AQ Cinnamon, thought I heard a bit of improvement in sound quality. After that, wanted further upgrade, getting pretty expensive with 26' of AQ Vodka which I was using on rest of streaming setup. So then I moved modem to other end of room, extending coax the 26', AQ Vodka modem to router, pretty major upgrade with this.
 

Prior to this router followed exact same path, from opposite side of room to same. This was also pretty substantial upgrade.

So, bottom line for me, both modem and router close to audio system, long coax superior to long ethernet, and better ethernet cable worthwhile.

TeraDac lps are fine for many streaming components, I must have ten of them altogether, over many years not a single issue. Use best lps on servers, streamers, the best make difference on these components. Power cords and power conditioners also important for every component,lps.

Ghasley correct, everything matters, and so many variations in streaming setups. Experimentation is key, be open to it!