Upgrading Fuses

Vhiner: As always, within your last two postings in particular, continue to perpetuate your simplistic reductionist interpretation of the entire factual picture.

10-08-11: Vhiner
"...you might actually discover that not all matters can be answered by measurements or double-blind tests (which have long been abandoned by audio designers as useless).

>>> Factual or not, equivalent/applicable testing methods are universally utilized throughout the WORLD's various scientific/engineering fields. You know, real-world meat and potato contributions to what you've become accustomed to in modern life. Not some niche, sales-driven, motivated market pandering to self-absorbed egotists. HiFi might be YOUR limited frontier of electronics, but I'm here to tell you there's a whole world out there that dwarfs this hobbies’ exploitation of early engineering achievements before "HiFi" was even trending.

10-08-11: Vhiner
"For others, I would, indeed, recommend you read Mr. Aczel's diatribe. It puts him squarely in the conspiracy theory camp occupied by people who have NOTHING to do with invention, innovation or the furthering of this great hobby."

>>> This "great hobby", as you refer to, has grown to perpetuate equipment $$$ales by whatever means necessary, including praying on human insecurities, doubt, and ego - just like all product sales! Your industry-supported magazine “reviewer gods” merely exists to perpetuate sales of their employer's magazines and sustain advertising revenue. And just what exactly are THEY directly contributing to "invention and innovation"?

10-08-11: Vhiner
"I lived in Germany for several years and I can tell you that neither the EU nor the very controlling and quality-contro crazy German government would allow HiFi Tuning to sell, let alone export something used in electronics that was either dangerous or not what it was claimed to be."

>>> Meeting safety regulations is one thing, and as long as they perform to said standards, meet regulatory obligation. Any "alluded" performance gain claims are most certainly marketable, even in Germany, as with any boutique power cables made in the EU, though probably mandate CE certification, unlike...

Vhiner:
"The document you have provided is evidence of this. Of course, there's no way to prove to skeptics that this document was not produced by a mad scientist employed by a religious cult. ;-)"

>>> Oh brother! If I had a nickel for every audio/non-audio manufacturer-generated embellished/bloated
"marketing comparison", which illuminated their product tiering over a "specific" or selected few competitors, I could better support my Starbucks' chemical dependency. They, like most audio reviews, should be considered with an open mind. I'm not saying the Tuning Fuse data is false or embellished, but I, like most engineering fundamentalist, would have a warmer fuzzy with independent testing having no motivational biasing - just like other testing agencies for all types of industry.

Well forty bucks isn't outrageous money to spend even if your gear isn't expensive.
The DecWare amp sells for about one thousand dollars, brand new and it's one of the best amps I've ever owned.
All 2 watts of this amp drives my Ref 3A Grand Veenas to very pleasurable levels in my smaller room.

It's the tone that matters to me, not the volume, or amount of bass impact,yet I notice no lack of bass with the Decware doing the amplification.

So,I wouldn't limit the use of a HiFi fuse to only high end gear.

Remember what Aczel said(before his myth busting days)that fuses degrade your sound.
I have years of experience with all manner and stripe of amplifiers to back this up.

Interesting what Mr.Aczel's take would be on a fuse that costs 40 bucks, but I'll wager it would be in the denier category.
Kind of ironic isn't it, but still keeping with his 180 degree turn in this hobby, and I'll wager he can pretty much lay claim to being the father of the whole denier cult so fashionable today.
And so sad.

To me if you are of the belief that everything is bunk and hype, then this must be a very uninteresting and boring hobby, unless your thrills are debunking things. If you feel there is nothing to be discovered, that nothing can improve upon stock or vintage, then to me ,what's the point of investing any money in anything in the hobby.
That's stagnation to me, and not any fun.

Also, remember that Mr.Aczel originally felt that things could be improved from stock.
Fuses were one thing that he felt had a sonic signature.

So why is it so hard to grasp the concept of one fuse being better than another?

Again we are talking 40 bucks, if the cost is the only reason to shy away from it, then again to me, this isn't the type of hobby for you to be in.

I personally don't think the cost of an upgraded fuse like the HiFi tuning supremmes that I now use is a ripp off.

If I did I would still be using my solid copper fuse replacements and be done with it, sans the protection that a fuse brings.
To me the peace of mind of knowing I also get protection besides better sound is the real plus.

I should add that yes the HiFi Supreme fuse did improve the already great sound of my Decware amp, as did the IsoCleans when they were used in AtmaSphere,Classe,and Cary amplifiers.

You can spend a lot more money and not get any results as pleasing as you do with a decent upgraded fuse.

It's safe, simple to install,improves the sound, and the amplifier is easily returned to stock condition, which is a real plus if you are into the vintage thing.There is no audio butchery involved and anyone can do it, no engineer's degree is needed.

To my ears the upgraded audio fuse from reputable manufacturers such as HiFi tuning,should be the very first thing an audiophile buys when he starts on the road to getting all the music from his system.

After this is done, most everything else will fall into place, and you'll notice how simple things that you once took for granted or paid no attention to, really do matter, and matter a lot more when you address them from the electrical panel to the panel speaker, or cone, your choice.

Speaking of panels, Magnepan speakers are prime candidates for upgraded fuses, and I know several owners who bypass the fuse altogether and get better sound.

Getting back to Peter Aczel,he is one piece of audio that I really do enjoy more in his old "vintage" personna.

God bless you, nonoise! I lived in Germany for several years and I can tell you that neither the EU nor the very controlling and quality-contro crazy German government would allow HiFi Tuning to sell, let alone export something used in electronics that was either dangerous or not what it was claimed to be. The document you have provided is evidence of this. Of course, there's no way to prove to skeptics that this document was not produced by a mad scientist employed by a religious cult. ;-)

I couldn't find info, other than reviews that state that HIFi Tuning Fuses are made in Germany. I did find this but it is way over my head:
http://www.hifi-tuning.com/pdf/wlfr.eng.pdf

Hope it helps some.

Folks.

Think it is time for me to quit on this thread whatever else I would have said is already in the article:) (although if anybody posts info that would allow me to trace down fuse manufacturer info that is still of interest).

Happy listening!

I remember reading this article a long time ago and it still makes me smile.
The first reason: I bought it whole hog. Every word.
The second reason: He wasn't always right.

There is another thread somewhere, here, that addressed the issue of a switch box and it was pointed out the variances it introduces making it unreliable for 'proper' A/B switching. It can't be done reliably. Whether the poster was correct or not, I can't say, but Aczel doesn't necessarily have the last word on this as I don't remember what he wrote being on a stone tablet.

I'l stick to my own, lying eyes (ears) every time.

Mr. Jones , you might also do well to read Paul McGowan's PS Tracks blog. If you are as open to having your own assumptions challenged as you are to challenging the assumptions of others, you might actually discover that not all matters can be answered by measurements or double-blind tests ( which have long been abandoned by audio designers as useless). For others, I would,indeed, recommend you read Mr. Aczel's diatribe. It puts him squarely in the conspiracy theory camp occupied by people who have NOTHING to do with invention, innovation or the furthering of this great hobby. Mr. Aczel would have you believe that William Zane Johnson of Audio Research was a dishonest or deluded huckster trying to lead you down the garden path. Mr. Jones either failed to understand Lacee 's point or he's just here to throw boogers at everyone who wants to share their audio discoveries. I'll let greater minds be the judge.

Lacee wrote "Years ago Peter Aczel suggested".

Lacee, had not heard of Peter Aczel so I did a search for him. All I can say is thank you very much!!!!

His article"10 biggest lies in audio" at http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_26_r.pdf is the best audio magazine or internet article that I have ever read.

I'd put it up as the best and most accurate audio article ever written.

For someone reading this thread that wants to really understand what is going on, please read the whole article, but read section 4 a couple times.

Hi Lacee

I do appreciate your candor and don't mind the bluntness. You definitely do make a lot of valid points. My reasoning for not spending more than a couple of bucks per fuse is because my gear isn't as nice as yours or the others mentioned where members have heard positive sonic differences or improvements by putting in the more expensive fuses in place.

From what I've read systems that have the more expensive gear that are also very resolving benefit most from these fuses. You've got Manley and Decware gear which is real nice and expensive to me. My gear i no where near that. One of your Shunyata power cords new costs almost as much as my entire system!

I highly doubt putting a couple of hundred dollars worth of fuses is going to make a difference with my gear. I think I'd be hitting diminishing returns. If I had a big dollar system though I'd be more open to the pricier fuses.

Info on isoclean or the other manufacturer?

Was trying to find evidence that isoclean actually exists as a production facility, not just somebody with a stack of decals & etc. in their basement in Hong Kong.
Can't get past the opening page of their website, my computer gives me a malware warning when I click on any of the options. Can't find evidence of the company in the UL registry, but that might just mean that they are modifying another company's product rather than building from scratch.
Any info that is supplied with the fuses that would help trace down the production facility is of interest.
Info of interest includes;
1. Safety certification (UL and etc.) numbers.
2. Details of markings on fuses.
3. Factory address or contact info provided with the fuses.
4. Anything else that seems to indicate where the fuses are manufactured.

Lacee,

Nicely said.
Blunt, but nicely said.

Years ago Peter Aczel suggested that speaker protection fuses ruined the sound anywhere in the chain, be it in the speakers or in the amp.

Years ago I tried removing the speaker fuses and ever since have bypassed them with copper wire.

I never had any disasters, no blow ups, ruined drivers or house fires.

But why tempt fate .I tried the IsoCleans when they came out and they were an improvement over the stock one buck fuses.
Now I use the HiFi supremes in my Decware amp, my Manley Steelhead.

I also use dedicated lines, Sand Shunyata Hydras and Annaconda power cords.

How these things all interact together to make a much more enjoyable listening experience is something that didn't happen overnite.
I would venture that the folks who haven't had much luck with aftermarket power cords will also not find aftermarket fuses to work either.

Some folks are just wired that way,pun intended.

The effects of upgrading your power to the gear(which to me is the real "source")is cumulative.

Each piece of the puzzle does a bit, but until you put all the pieces together, you will never see the big picture.

That's what's unique about this hobby.
People are looking for the big fix for under a buck at the dollar store, and refuse to go the extra mile to get all the music out of their systems that they spent decent money on.

Home Depot wire is great, better than most mega buck speaker wires,so they tell me.

But if they are true to their beliefs, shouldn't the home depot wire be no better or no worse?

It's become apparent to me over the years that anything that costs more than a buck is to be avoided at all costs.

And that's sad.

That tells me there is a lot of systems with a lot of money invested in them that will never sound as good as it was designed to sound, and all the money invested in massive music software has been wasted if the system is only capable of delivering part of the music.

What money is saved if you forgo 40 bucks on a fuse and spend it on a nice re-issue, if the sound of the re-issue will be compromised by the stock one buck fuse?

I think nickle and diming your way in this hobby is the most foolish waste of time and money there is.

I know it goes against the grain and wisdom of the new generation of audiophile,but then again I am old school.

I still enjoy listening to music without any distaractions and giving it all my attention.

Jedinite,

It'd be interesting to hear from someone who has compared the Isoclean, hifi tuning and cheaper ceramic fuses.

I have compared the stock ceramic fuse in my Classe' Delta 2200 amplifier with a Supreme Hifi Tuning fuse with a friend present. I won't share the full measure of my enthusiasm (apparently it enrages some people) but my friend opted to order some for himself after he heard the difference. I'll leave it at that. There's no doubt that what a change is worth is utterly personal and I would never challenge what another person hears (or doesn't).

Wow this is such a lively discussion. I'm going to try and read through all this later.

I wonder what Needfreestuff has done now fuse wise.

Well looking through the archives this debate has raged on for years in different threads. I did find a nice review by longtime A'gon member Albert Porter where he discusses Isoclean fuses.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue22/isoclean.htm

As for me I just can't get myself to spend $25 to $40 on a fuse. I am going to try ceramic fuses in place of my glass ones. They are about $1.50 per fuse rather than $.60 per fuse. One hi-end install shop told me that when they changed stock fuses to the more expensive fuses in some amps and preamps in some of their big dollar installs and the changes in sound were good but only very slight. Nothing earth shattering.

"Oh, and please honestly report your findings here, "

Have been thinking about all the things that get in the way of meaningful findings and would prevent 'honest' testing, if you don't believe in measurement or double blind tests.

1. Limitations in system performance & in hearing capabilities.
2. Limitations in acoustic memory.
3. Normal listening bias associated with testing something new (we listen more intensely when trying to detect a change than we do when comparing the change to a "known" system. Usually that means we 'hear' more when listening to the changed system).
4. Long term bias due to existing beliefs, ego, desire for improvement, etc.
5. Transient bias due to particular mood during listening session.
6. Transient perception differences due to exposure to noise, quality of sleep, minor sinus issue, etc. before listening session.
7. Difficulty of eliminating all equipment & environmental variables that could confuse the testing.
8. Most likely additional items that I haven't though of.

Vhiner... "Measure" the same.

As I have pointed out, the human ear, which we all agree is the ultimate judge of how it sounds, can be used to make a measurement of any difference between two audio amps by listening to the null across the hot output terminals. Since "difference" is what we are interested in it makes sense to measure (listen to) difference. Small difference is almost impossible to objectively detect in the presence of the strong signal. "Almost impossible" opens the door to subjective opinions as we see in this discussion.

Well, I don't recall William Zane Johnson of Audio Research fame providing endless technical documentation of why the famed SP3-1A preamp sounded better than the solid state competition. As I recall, curious, suspicious, and doubting potential buyers auditioned the product at the store, brought it home for the weekend to run it through its paces, counted their gold pieces, and then many brought in their old unit and treasure to make a trade. There was no trumpeting by Audio Research of their "proof" backed up by specifications of why their preamp sounded better (in fact, when compared to the solid state competition of its time, its specs were not as good) it just did. (Not that the SP-3 had bad specs!) People that heard the difference, may have questioned why, but still plunked down their dollars to bring music into their homes. The tube revolution was on. Even today, according to documents I've read, there are theories why tube equipment gets the music right but no exact scientific explanation that all agree on. (Something about electrons buzzing through a vaccuum?) Today solid state and tube equipment both sound excellent, though in general, getting the best from solid state is more expensive then a comparable tube circuit. Ok, my purpose here is not to debate the virtues of tubes vs. solid state, (I own both), but to illustrate that it is possible for an audio component and its included parts to make music without a technical, measured explanation. I might audition a component that makes me curious as to why it sounds so musical, examine the specs, and try to find a reason for the sound, but I'd never even think of auditioning a piece of equipment in my system by examining the specs first.

To me, these stupid little fuses that have caused such a debate, make music happen in my system. It would be interesting to know why, but in the end I don't really care.

So if interested in finding the truth for yourself, order some fuses from a respected retailer with a 30 day return policy, keep an open mind (if you still have one), and see if these expensive (but not unreasonably so when compared to price of your system) little ceramic and metal cylinders help you discover some notes you have not heard before.

Oh, and please honestly report your findings here, especially if you've found a way to measure why they make music.

Metro04,

Thanks for being so patient with me. Are you saying Conrad-Johnson has data proving and explaining that it is in fact the teflon capacitors that cause their equipment to sound different from their competitors' equipment? It could be that they do, but unless you can provide that data, your supposition is unsubstantiated. At least that's what unsubstantiated means according to my silly old dictionary. But if substantiated fact actually means anything you happen to say or suppose, then I think I understand. No one wants another "pure unsubstantiated opinion" ticket from the Truth Patrol.

As for your use of the word " proof", well you really have revolutionized the use of that noun. Again, I apologize for being so slow in comprehending the new definition and application. You have demanded academic studies in past posts. I'd like to read some that you've used in your equipment selection process. I've been reading far too many "audio" publications which you've ridiculed, for good reasons I'm sure. Please give us your top ten academic journal articles (citations would be helpful) so we can share the wealth.

Paul McGowan just wrote in his PS Tracks blog on Wednesday that, "Two amps that measure the same don't sound the same." That's odd. People who aren't blessed with your level of genius might conclude that Mr. McGowan is implying that some sound eludes current measurement tools. But, again, I'm sure your background, training and ethics are far more "pure" than that of Mr. Gowan, Mr. Hartley and Mr. Atkinson.

Don't you have any other friends to play with? Try your best to comprehend what I'm writing this time. That way you can hopefully do a better job with accuracy in your interpretations of my postings.

09-28-11: Vhiner
"I'm a bit surprised that you're willing to bet money on an unsubstantiated opinion that Conrad-Johnson has measurements to support all of its design decisions. Please post the supporting document!"

>>> What "unsubstantiated opinion"?!! CJ, like *just* about all major audio equipment manufacturers, employ engineers that design and thoroughly test their circuits which may incorporate whatever topology and quality components to achieve their design goals! The proof is in their measured test results, data, etc. and verifiable by anyone (buyer) with appropriate test equipment! If CJ is willing to share their measurements with you, hence your verification, thus NOT an "opinion"! Understand the difference?

Vhiner: "Now, back to my main question: could you please post the academic studies you consult before you buy your equipment. I'm eager for the bedtime reading."

>>> Every piece of my audio equipment has documented specifications from the manufacturer, all of which are verifiable via test equipment measurements, thus holding the manufacturer liable should results not match based on their testing criteria. Same goes for most electronics in general besides audio.

Now, I'll ask you again! Where is all the documented test results or written specifications from the manufacturer's of your fancy fuses? Gee, why is it that they don't offer any? What about the ever-growing list of exotic cable manufacturers? ...Printed specifications for performance attributes other than wire gage and plug specifications? Hmmm, yeah!

Ghosthouse - Milpai

Fuses.
Not, wonders of nature, magic and mysticism, limits of the universe stuff.
Just lumps of metal that you pass current through & that have a limited number of properties that are easy to measure & quantify and understand.

No rocket surgery involved here.

Metro04'

"Payed" (sic) magazine reviewers like Robert Harley and John Atkinson have written extensively about how measurement methods are routinely being developed that enable us to explain things that people hear which could not have been measured or explained in the past.

The best example pertains to digital audio. In the early days engineers were outraged by people who claimed that all digital playback devices were not the same. Some engineers pointed to their spes and said that CD's provided "perfect sound", Zeros and ones are zeros and ones, they argued. The measurements show that what goes in is exactly what goes out.

Then jitter measurements were developed and, lo and behold, it was discovered that the lowly listeners had been right all along. Digits are not just digits and all cd players are not equal in terms of sound reproduction quality.

People like Harley and Atkinson contend that it is not measurements that are the problem; it is people who worship those measurements.

But of course these two gentlemen are not geniuses like Metro04.

Metro04,

That was brilliant. It is hard to keep up.

Now, back to my main question: could you please post the academic studies you consult before you buy your equipment. I'm eager for the bedtime reading.

I'm a bit surprised that you're willing to bet money on an unsubstantiated opinion that Conrad-Johnson has measurements to support all of its design decisions. Please post the supporting document! Or have you altered your precepts? I'm sorry I have such a hard time keeping up. Is it now that only other people have to provide studies or documents when presenting their suppositions? Have you posted any studies yet? I can hardly wait.

09-28-11: Vhiner
“I''ve never claimed to be a genius, but I know when i'm in the presence of one, metro04. Even if I'm far beneath your level, i hope you won't abandon us and stop despensing advice! So here goes: I'm in a bit of a panic. I can't find any independent, vetted research studies to support Conrad-Johnson's claim that the teflon capacitors they use affect the sound in their equipment. Per Your guidelines Meteo04, this must mean I've been ripped off. I was hoping you could post the academic studies you used for buying all of your equipment. This would help all of us make much better purchasing choices.”

>>>Vhiner, I realize that you had to wear a special helmet during childhood, but continuing to wear it is restricting essential blood flow to your gray matter. It’s becoming quite evident that you have a fetish for seeing and re-reading your own delusional material in print. I can’t imagine how popular you must be on facebook or twitter.

Anyways, regarding your panic attack; I would bet you a handsome wad of your Monopoly money that highly respected Conrad-Johnson has measurements to support their design, engineering, and testing result … just like Pass, Krell, Levinson, etc, etc, and is something anyone with capable test equipment could verify. That pretty much goes for any equipment with quoted/written specifications. With that said, just where is all that data for aftermarket tweaks, cables, and pseudo-science products?! Well? Yeah, exactly!!! Next!

09-28-11: Vhiner
“The Gospel according to Metro04:The Gospel according to Metro04:”

“It's very important that, from this point on, everyone should follow Mr. Metro's rules and regulations. If you fail to do so, you are clearly either superstitious, mentally challenged, deluded or part of a a criminal fraud. Whatever experience you have is inadmissible unless accompanied by certified letters from academic editorial boards because scientific journals never err.”

>>>Uhhh, excuse me Mr. alcohol-syndrome baby, but your idiotic babblings are not my rules and regulations, but established practices around the world in every sector of which I’ve already stated examples! If you can’t keep up, take notes!!! And where exactly in my postings do I allude to: “you are clearly either superstitious, mentally challenged, deluded or part of a criminal fraud.”?

>>>Yeah, thought not, though you do seem to have a Politian’s knack for stretching, embellishing, and sensationalizing facts!

“Mr. Metro has further established, once and for all, that any reviews or opinions expressed by the representatives of Stereophile, Paul McGowan, Positive Feedback, Stereo Times and many more publications easily accessible on line regarding high end fuses all reflect the thoughts of people who are either in the pockets of advertisers, deluded, con artists, or mentally challenged.”

>>> And again with stretching, embellishing, and sensationalizing facts! The conversation went as follows below: Note my exact wording of questions asked, and it is WELL understood that many equipment reviews are positively biased if magazines and reviewer wish to continue advertising for companies they review for. Either Vhiner is ignorant to this fact, or refuses to acknowledge the reality. I have yet to locate a fuse review with measureable results I enquired about. If you can post a link here, I’d be happy to read it!

09-22-11: Vhiner
“P.S. In addition to being an award-winning editor and journalist, Robert Harley is a respected engineer who has addressed this tired,old debate countless times. John Atkinson provides countless measurements of audiophile products."

09-22-11: Metro04
Which month's magazine article did RH or JA address this fuse issue will measureable results? These are payed magazine reviewers, correct?”

Bless you, Milpai.
So much of debate hangs on unproven, underlying assumptions; e.g., our technologically enhanced senses can fully grasp reality. Hundreds of years ago humanity lacked instruments to "see" bacteria that caused millions of deaths in plague. Our inability to detect them didn't negate their effects. What instrumentation do we lack today to understand causative agents of perceived effects? Inability to measure cause is not a valid reason for dismissing effect.

Amen, Milpai.

To the scientifically approaching people:

Explain me what is the "life" in any living being. What happens to this "life" after the living being dies? Where does it go? Can you track it? Can your degrees create or measure that "life"? If you can do that and explain my questions, I will start believing the following:
All amps are same
All wires are same
All fuses are the same
All humans....nope..that is going too far.

I guess some things cannot be explained by measurements or science. We can argue - why do we believe that humans evolved out of apes? Have you guys seen it happen with your own eyes? Nope, but we still believe it. On the other hand if we hear a component and find that it does sound different, why the hell are we arguing about it? It is in front of our very own eyes and we are listening to it with our very own ears!! He he he...got carried over.

The people on the other side of the fence can say, the non-believers are actually the ones who are wrong. Why? Because they "assume" everything in audio is the same - without actually using (trying) the product. Yes snake oil exists in abundance in any hobby. But we have the equipments (namely our ears) to identify them. Why not give it a try without prejudice? BTW, not everyone hears the same. and that could be the reason some of us believe and some don't.

So, lets continue with the original topic and let each of us have our own opinions :-)

I''ve never claimed to be a genius, but I know when i'm in the presence of one, metro04. Even if I'm far beneath your level, i hope you won't abandon us and stop despensing advice!

So here goes: I'm in a bit of a panic. I can't find any independent, vetted research studies to support Conrad-Johnson's claim that the teflon capacitors they use affect the sound in their equipment. Per Your guidelines Meteo04, this must mean I've been ripped off. I was hoping you could post the academic studies you used for buying all of your equipment. This would help all of us make much better purchasing choices.

"I'm sure there are even counterfeit fuses being made as well as power cords, interconnects, and speaker wire."

I think you are right.
Cardas has, or used to have, problems with others counterfeiting their cables & has/had info on there website on how to spot a fake. There also was a internet big to-doo over an established cable manufacturer re-naming an existing power cable and bumping the price somewhere around 500%. When you read cable manufacturer website info you see the occasional comment about "that other guy" basically just using cable made by the existing large scale production manufacturers and then making it more cosmetically appealing.
When I'm in doubt on a tweak, I try to see if I can find information about the brick and mortar production facilities that the vendor is using. If I can't verify such facilities exist, it makes me go hummm.

"How many people are going to take apart their $5000.00 interconnects to make sure they have really got what they paid for"
Folks are nerdy enough to take apart blown fuses and check them against specs for common production fuses though. If you eventually blow a few you could probably sell the corpses on this website. I and many others are too cheap to buy new pricey fuses just to tear them up for curiosities sake.

09-27-11: Vhiner
"Metro04,You, sir, are a genius."

...As your endless postings of empty dribble clearly illustrates, you, sir, are NOT!

The Gospel according to Metro04:

{metro04}…"Pure unsubstantiated opinion!"

[metro04] “your universe (and that of many here)”, do NOT reflect real world quantified verification processes for medical, science, engineering, scholastic research methodology, or the likes. Almost every design, development, or breakthrough requires a variety and battery of methodical, multi-verification processes. No mere individual can profess an unsubstantiated claim without having to prove their findings, hence the burden of proof obligation."

It's very important that, from this point on, everyone should follow Mr. Metro's rules and regulations. If you fail to do so, you are clearly either superstitious, mentally challenged, deluded or part of a a criminal fraud. Whatever experience you have is inadmissible unless accompanied by certified letters from academic editorial boards because scientific journals never err.

Mr. Metro has further established, once and for all, that any reviews or opinions expressed by the representatives of Stereophile, Paul McGowan, Positive Feedback, Stereo Times and many more publications easily accessible on line regarding high end fuses all reflect the thoughts of people who are either in the pockets of advertisers, deluded, con artists, or mentally challenged.

I'm grateful to Herr Metro for showing me and everyone else that what any of us hear is irrelevant unless it is supported by research studies. If we could rid this and all forums of the "pure unsubstantiated opinion" that he finds so upsetting, the world would be a much more orderly, easy-to-comprehend place. I'm hoping his precepts will be adopted by audio societies across America. This chaos has gone on long enough!

Now that high end fuses have been thoroughly debunked, perhaps Mr. Metro will enlighten us about power cords, power conditioners, and digital interconnects.

Thank goodness, I finally see the light. (unless my eyes are lying to me as my ears apparently are)

Regarding fuses, I suppose we could be victims of a 'ripoff' by audiophile fuse manufacturers. Maybe they haven't done anything to them at all. I'm sure there are even counterfeit fuses being made as well as power cords, interconnects, and speaker wire. How many people are going to take apart their $5000.00 interconnects to make sure they have really got what they paid for and I might add would kow the difference between the components of their interconnects anyway? I have been both a witness to and victim of "psychoacoustic effects" before and probably will be again. The fact is in this case, two other audiophiles and I, took apart my PS Audio PWD after listening for about a half hour, and changed the fuses and listened again. Changing the fuses took about a half hour as I changed the fuses in the PWT as well. We were all skeptical about hearing a difference and voiced concerns about the PWD cooling off and not sounding as good because of being unplugged. Then we hooked everything up and listened. For the first time in my experience with the PWD there the sonics did not take a hit after being unplugged. The PWT sounded better with the new fuses installed even having cooled off. I have since removed the fuses and replaced them with the stock ones and listened again, and what do you know, the PWD had taken a step backwards, so I replaced the stock fuses with the Supremes again, and the sound came back. Now I'm not saying that these fuses transformed my system into audio Nirvana, but they do bring the quality up a notch by at least 2000%! Just joking! I did make sure I purchased the fuses from a reputable company, (The Cable Company) so hopefully they are comfortable with the legitimacy of their suppliers. The Cable Company does offer a 30 refund by the way, so doubters could try the fuses and send them back if they could not hear a difference. Just ask for Paul Jenkins. By the way, Paul McGowan of PS Audio, still endorses these tweaked up fuses even though they are not selling them anymore.
As for my statements about why Krell used circuit breakers instead of fuses in the KSA 250 I guess I did infer that the reasons had to do with sound quality. There could be other reasons.

I hope this means it's time for your nap, Metro04. That last post must've been exhausting.

[yawn]

Metro04,

You, sir, are a genius.

Circuit breakers are appropriate for power amps, where overheating due to prolonged high power operation is not uncommon. Reset the breaker, reduce volume, and resume the concert.

In a preamp, fuse blowout is associated with some fault in the circuit, and routine replacement (if you have one on hand) without troubleshooting is not appropriate.

09-26-11: Sgr
“Krell amps use no fuses. I believe so they don't impact the sound quality.”

...Orrr, because circuit breakers offer particular advantages over fuses in high-current applications, as with most commercial welding equipment, since you made reference to the KSA-250’s abilty, of which I happen to own one driving Scintillas.

09-26-11: Vhiner
“I'll just wait for a knowledgable Krell owner with experience to post on this question. I know someone who owns four of them and he says they have no fuses. Until then I'm sure there'll be a week-long theoretical debate about it.”

…Though true for Krell’s amps, is blatantly untrue for their preamps, of which incorporate “standard” fuses for which Krell managed to achieve their sonic goals without boutique fuses.

09-26-11: Sebrof
“Of course Krell uses fuses. Go to their website and download the manuals like I did and read about the fuse specs like I did.”

09-26-11: Vhiner
“I stand corrected. Sorry. I rarely post heresay. It won't happen again.”

…Classic!

09-26-11: Sgr
“I own 2 Krell KSA 250s and a pair of MDA 500s and have just double checked the owners manuals and according to the manual Krell has developed circuit topologies without fuses because they impact the sound quality.”

…And just where in Krell’s KSA-250 manual does it say “without fuses because they impact the sound quality”? To reiterate, Krell uses them in their preamps, yet opted to use circuit breakers in their high-current amps for strategic reasons.

“One might conclude that while the use of fuses is required to protect our expensive audio equipment, it is not in the best interest of the components sonic potential, thus the need for higher quality fuses to counter the effects of the fuses. In fact many audiophiles have wired around the fuses or installed solid pieces of copper in place of the fuses for their systems sonic benefit. Of course this is risky, you could blow the hell out or your equipment! So I'll be safe and have better sound by buying audiophile fuses, thus a better quality fuse that both protects the circuitry and p”

…Pure unsubstantiated opinion! Won’t you please educate us on exactly what the construction differences are aside from gold plated ends and printed directional arrows?

09-26-11: Vhiner
“I love reading posts by people with first-hand experience. Thanks Sgr.”

…What “first-hand experience”?

09-27-11: Vhiner
“Sebrof, No redemption for me...I'm here to learn and I think your post generated some much needed insight into how at least one equipment designer views fuses, which I did not know about, namely that fuses may degrade sound. I was similarly skeptical when I first heard about amps with no fuses.”

…Which designer’s fuse views regarding “namely that fuses may degrade sound”?


09-27-11: Jeff_jones
" They do describe operation of their installed circuit breaker used instead of an incoming power fuse on the KSA 250 though. The interesting thing in the manual to me was the warning not to fiddle with a different power supply cable, almost as if they were using power cable impedance as part of the protection scheme? One could discuss whether fuses & breakers sound different, but I wouldn't recommend it:)”

…Jeff, my take was that Krell’s statement pertained to buyers potentially swapping out power cords without acknowledging current ratings for the amp's current demands. The later part of you paragraph is what some seem to be overlooking, and “probably” will never become a niche market for obvious reasons to several of us, though I would never bet against it.

" I looked at 4 or 5 other manuals and they all spec'd the fuses."

They do describe operation of their installed circuit breaker used instead of an incoming power fuse on the KSA 250 though. The interesting thing in the manual to me was the warning not to fiddle with a different power supply cable, almost as if they were using power cable impedance as part of the protection scheme?
One could discuss whether fuses & breakers sound different, but I wouldn't recommend it:).

Sebrof,

No redemption for me...I'm here to learn and I think your post generated some much needed insight into how at least one equipment designer views fuses, which I did not know about, namely that fuses may degrade sound. I was similarly skeptical when I first heard about amps with no fuses.

Sorry to beat the heck out of this Krell fuse thing.
Interesting about the KSA 250, it's the only one I saw that does not use fuses. I looked at 4 or 5 other manuals and they all spec'd the fuses.
Vhiner - You have been redeemed ;)

Talk about getting OT...

I love reading posts by people with first-hand experience. Thanks Sgr.

I own 2 Krell KSA 250s and a pair of MDA 500s and have just double checked the owners manuals and according to the manual Krell has developed circuit topologies without fuses because they impact the sound quality. Instead they developed their own proprietary circuitry that self monitors the amp and will shut the amps down if their is a problem. I would be surprised if they would abandon this technology in more recent amps. Krell amps were developed to power up the legendary Apogee speakers and will play into a dead short. Some have even suggested one could arc weld with them. I would have copied and pasted from the manual directly but was not allowed because it is PDF form.
One might conclude that while the use of fuses is required to protect our expensive audio
equipment, it is not in the best interest of the components sonic potential,
thus the need for higher quality fuses to counter the effects of the fuses.
In fact many audiophiles have wired around the fuses or installed solid pieces of copper in place of the fuses for their systems sonic benefit. Of course this is risky, you could blow the hell out or your equipment! So I'll be safe and have better sound by buying audiophile fuses.
thus a better quality fuse that both protects the circuitry and p

I stand corrected. Sorry. I rarely post heresay. It won't happen again.

Of course Krell uses fuses. Go to their website and download the manuals like I did and read about the fuse specs like I did.

I'll just wait for a knowledgable Krell owner with experience to post on this question. I know someone who owns four of them and he says they have no fuses. Until then I'm sure there'll be a week-long theoretical debate about it.

Krell amps use no fuses. I believe so they don't impact the sound quality.

09-26-11: Vhiner
"Not all amps have fuses...Krell for example."

That's crazy talk. Must have a fuse, no? I've never heard of such a thing. For nothing else so that your house doesn't burn down.

Jtein,

Not all amps have fuses...Krell for example. I would not risk voiding a warranty for any reason. You should contact the manufacturer about this. It's critical that you replace fuses with the proper specifications required by the manufacturer to avoid damaging your equipment. If it's a large 10 amp slow blow then that is exactly what you need to use.

PS Audio has authorized the HiFi Tuning fuse upgrade for their gear and the company's CEO has blogged about the sonic benefits. It's a major reason why I tried the fuses....that and other user feedback. Hope this helps.

As far as I know, not every equipment benefits highly from high quality fuses and that's what happened in my system to, however partially.

I bought one Furutech for my Cary 300B and it changed things in the good way. The sound become bit warmer/smoother and fuller, took some sharpness away. Another fuse, also from Furutech, was installed in my CD player, Unison Research Unico, but the results are doubtful, not bad or worse at all, but if I can hear even more difference than say from Cary upgrade only, not sure. I guess I have to install the original fuse back to hear that, but it never bother me, so, I just leave like it is.
Furutech fuses, as I have read, requires around 100 hours of burn in, but I found them to open up with first 5 hours already and indeed even better with longer use.

Even this is a simple wire, as some folks thinks, it still a wire and the power gets through it, just as through power cable, isn't? So, why power cables make that huge differences in some, or almost every, situation and fuse cant?

I don't see any other complain here than the high price only, but before you consider to buy expensive power cable, just try to roll the fuse first and you may save some cash for something else, who knows...

Enjoy the music

Cheers

All the manuals of my components warn against attempts at fiddling with the innards as there are no user-serviceable parts. How do I go about changing fuses?

[Vhiner] "It doesn't matter because this debate is clearly not about science."

[Metro04] "Why isn't this debate about science?"

[Frogman] "Simple, because it is not science that is at play. It is science in the service of music. Music is art. Art is human expression. If you think that the sophistication of electronic science matches the complexity of musical sounds (art), you don't understand art."

[metro04] Pertaining to the topic of THIS debate, regarding boutique fuses, it most certainly is, and it doesn't specifically have to apply to "music" reproduction. If a person merely wishes to listen to broadcasted "news" or any other non “music” material, it still requires electronic amplification and speakers, of which both took science and engineering to produce!
___________________________________________________________

[Vhiner] “I hear what I hear. You can't prove I don't and i don't feel the need to prove that i do . If it works, it works. This is a fact that drives some service technicians crazy.”

[metro04] “The onus of proof ALWAYS falls on the person making the claim, not the other way around." And “It's no different than anyone claiming they can read minds, predict the future, move objects telepathically, etc, etc...”

[Frogman] “Really? In my universe (and that of many here) it is you (and others here) that are making the claim; the claim that there is no difference. YOU prove it; if proof must be provided. Prove that there is no difference.

[metro04] I’m sorry, but “your universe (and that of many here)”, do NOT reflect real world quantified verification processes for medical, science, engineering, scholastic research methodology, or the likes. Almost every design, development, or breakthrough requires a variety and battery of methodical, multi-verification processes. No mere individual can profess an unsubstantiated claim without having to prove their findings, hence the burden of proof obligation.

Can you show me any examples of science or engineering-based methodical multi-verification methods taking place within any of the fancy fuse claims being made by exclusive auditory auditioning, especially when factoring in well-researched and documented human hearing deficiencies?

According to your thinking, anyone can profess outlandish claims about ANYTHING and not be held accountable. I’m afraid human behavior, in general, based on history, will not agree with you aside from modern-day “audiophiles”. I’m still afraid the onus defaults to the individuals making claims.

[Frogman]”Why does it bother you that some of us trust our ears? Why does it bother you that some of us perhaps have more sensitive hearing (by way of nature or training) in certain specific ways than others do? Why do you think that we have learned all that there is to know about the science of sound as it relates to sound and it's reproduction?”

[metro04] I stopped getting into these pointless debates for quite awhile now, though I still periodically read through these forums and several others online. Either camp seldom converts the other, no matter which controversial topic. Like others, I find those threads entertaining, but still raise an eyebrow or shake my head when posters tout overwhelming or huge improvements from cables, boutique fuses, or pseudo-science products based on listening alone - rarely deploying any additional verification process, and especially never with any test equipment to support their potentially psychological or sociological influenced “opinions”. For some reason, egos play a significant role in this hobby, and outlandish claims get touted endlessly as gospel, yet use every possible excuse to avoid or provide verification of their elitist claims, or sight endless testing method flaws. Since most lack adequate electronics and engineering background to understand the well-established fundamentals and physics, are highly susceptible to embellished marketing and placebo influences. All they have is their hearing, but conveniently ignor documented human hearing deficiencies. When questioned by some of us about what we consider to be questionable levels of performance gains, often resort to the tired old “if you can’t hear the difference…”, or “your system must not be resolving enough”, or deploy a variety of other condescending elitist BS, yet offer not a shred of evidence to prove they heard, or can hear anything.

That’s where “Vhiner” struck a nerve, and that’s what bothers me. The rest is in the writing and seems his endless egotist big-man-on-campus posting count now dominates the thread, besides his endless off topic diversion nonsense.