Upgrading Fuses

Don't you have any other friends to play with? Try your best to comprehend what I'm writing this time. That way you can hopefully do a better job with accuracy in your interpretations of my postings.

09-28-11: Vhiner
"I'm a bit surprised that you're willing to bet money on an unsubstantiated opinion that Conrad-Johnson has measurements to support all of its design decisions. Please post the supporting document!"

>>> What "unsubstantiated opinion"?!! CJ, like *just* about all major audio equipment manufacturers, employ engineers that design and thoroughly test their circuits which may incorporate whatever topology and quality components to achieve their design goals! The proof is in their measured test results, data, etc. and verifiable by anyone (buyer) with appropriate test equipment! If CJ is willing to share their measurements with you, hence your verification, thus NOT an "opinion"! Understand the difference?

Vhiner: "Now, back to my main question: could you please post the academic studies you consult before you buy your equipment. I'm eager for the bedtime reading."

>>> Every piece of my audio equipment has documented specifications from the manufacturer, all of which are verifiable via test equipment measurements, thus holding the manufacturer liable should results not match based on their testing criteria. Same goes for most electronics in general besides audio.

Now, I'll ask you again! Where is all the documented test results or written specifications from the manufacturer's of your fancy fuses? Gee, why is it that they don't offer any? What about the ever-growing list of exotic cable manufacturers? ...Printed specifications for performance attributes other than wire gage and plug specifications? Hmmm, yeah!

Metro04,

Thanks for being so patient with me. Are you saying Conrad-Johnson has data proving and explaining that it is in fact the teflon capacitors that cause their equipment to sound different from their competitors' equipment? It could be that they do, but unless you can provide that data, your supposition is unsubstantiated. At least that's what unsubstantiated means according to my silly old dictionary. But if substantiated fact actually means anything you happen to say or suppose, then I think I understand. No one wants another "pure unsubstantiated opinion" ticket from the Truth Patrol.

As for your use of the word " proof", well you really have revolutionized the use of that noun. Again, I apologize for being so slow in comprehending the new definition and application. You have demanded academic studies in past posts. I'd like to read some that you've used in your equipment selection process. I've been reading far too many "audio" publications which you've ridiculed, for good reasons I'm sure. Please give us your top ten academic journal articles (citations would be helpful) so we can share the wealth.

Paul McGowan just wrote in his PS Tracks blog on Wednesday that, "Two amps that measure the same don't sound the same." That's odd. People who aren't blessed with your level of genius might conclude that Mr. McGowan is implying that some sound eludes current measurement tools. But, again, I'm sure your background, training and ethics are far more "pure" than that of Mr. Gowan, Mr. Hartley and Mr. Atkinson.

Well, I don't recall William Zane Johnson of Audio Research fame providing endless technical documentation of why the famed SP3-1A preamp sounded better than the solid state competition. As I recall, curious, suspicious, and doubting potential buyers auditioned the product at the store, brought it home for the weekend to run it through its paces, counted their gold pieces, and then many brought in their old unit and treasure to make a trade. There was no trumpeting by Audio Research of their "proof" backed up by specifications of why their preamp sounded better (in fact, when compared to the solid state competition of its time, its specs were not as good) it just did. (Not that the SP-3 had bad specs!) People that heard the difference, may have questioned why, but still plunked down their dollars to bring music into their homes. The tube revolution was on. Even today, according to documents I've read, there are theories why tube equipment gets the music right but no exact scientific explanation that all agree on. (Something about electrons buzzing through a vaccuum?) Today solid state and tube equipment both sound excellent, though in general, getting the best from solid state is more expensive then a comparable tube circuit. Ok, my purpose here is not to debate the virtues of tubes vs. solid state, (I own both), but to illustrate that it is possible for an audio component and its included parts to make music without a technical, measured explanation. I might audition a component that makes me curious as to why it sounds so musical, examine the specs, and try to find a reason for the sound, but I'd never even think of auditioning a piece of equipment in my system by examining the specs first.

To me, these stupid little fuses that have caused such a debate, make music happen in my system. It would be interesting to know why, but in the end I don't really care.

So if interested in finding the truth for yourself, order some fuses from a respected retailer with a 30 day return policy, keep an open mind (if you still have one), and see if these expensive (but not unreasonably so when compared to price of your system) little ceramic and metal cylinders help you discover some notes you have not heard before.

Oh, and please honestly report your findings here, especially if you've found a way to measure why they make music.

Vhiner... "Measure" the same.

As I have pointed out, the human ear, which we all agree is the ultimate judge of how it sounds, can be used to make a measurement of any difference between two audio amps by listening to the null across the hot output terminals. Since "difference" is what we are interested in it makes sense to measure (listen to) difference. Small difference is almost impossible to objectively detect in the presence of the strong signal. "Almost impossible" opens the door to subjective opinions as we see in this discussion.

"Oh, and please honestly report your findings here, "

Have been thinking about all the things that get in the way of meaningful findings and would prevent 'honest' testing, if you don't believe in measurement or double blind tests.

1. Limitations in system performance & in hearing capabilities.
2. Limitations in acoustic memory.
3. Normal listening bias associated with testing something new (we listen more intensely when trying to detect a change than we do when comparing the change to a "known" system. Usually that means we 'hear' more when listening to the changed system).
4. Long term bias due to existing beliefs, ego, desire for improvement, etc.
5. Transient bias due to particular mood during listening session.
6. Transient perception differences due to exposure to noise, quality of sleep, minor sinus issue, etc. before listening session.
7. Difficulty of eliminating all equipment & environmental variables that could confuse the testing.
8. Most likely additional items that I haven't though of.

Wow this is such a lively discussion. I'm going to try and read through all this later.

I wonder what Needfreestuff has done now fuse wise.

Well looking through the archives this debate has raged on for years in different threads. I did find a nice review by longtime A'gon member Albert Porter where he discusses Isoclean fuses.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue22/isoclean.htm

As for me I just can't get myself to spend $25 to $40 on a fuse. I am going to try ceramic fuses in place of my glass ones. They are about $1.50 per fuse rather than $.60 per fuse. One hi-end install shop told me that when they changed stock fuses to the more expensive fuses in some amps and preamps in some of their big dollar installs and the changes in sound were good but only very slight. Nothing earth shattering.

Jedinite,

It'd be interesting to hear from someone who has compared the Isoclean, hifi tuning and cheaper ceramic fuses.

I have compared the stock ceramic fuse in my Classe' Delta 2200 amplifier with a Supreme Hifi Tuning fuse with a friend present. I won't share the full measure of my enthusiasm (apparently it enrages some people) but my friend opted to order some for himself after he heard the difference. I'll leave it at that. There's no doubt that what a change is worth is utterly personal and I would never challenge what another person hears (or doesn't).

Years ago Peter Aczel suggested that speaker protection fuses ruined the sound anywhere in the chain, be it in the speakers or in the amp.

Years ago I tried removing the speaker fuses and ever since have bypassed them with copper wire.

I never had any disasters, no blow ups, ruined drivers or house fires.

But why tempt fate .I tried the IsoCleans when they came out and they were an improvement over the stock one buck fuses.
Now I use the HiFi supremes in my Decware amp, my Manley Steelhead.

I also use dedicated lines, Sand Shunyata Hydras and Annaconda power cords.

How these things all interact together to make a much more enjoyable listening experience is something that didn't happen overnite.
I would venture that the folks who haven't had much luck with aftermarket power cords will also not find aftermarket fuses to work either.

Some folks are just wired that way,pun intended.

The effects of upgrading your power to the gear(which to me is the real "source")is cumulative.

Each piece of the puzzle does a bit, but until you put all the pieces together, you will never see the big picture.

That's what's unique about this hobby.
People are looking for the big fix for under a buck at the dollar store, and refuse to go the extra mile to get all the music out of their systems that they spent decent money on.

Home Depot wire is great, better than most mega buck speaker wires,so they tell me.

But if they are true to their beliefs, shouldn't the home depot wire be no better or no worse?

It's become apparent to me over the years that anything that costs more than a buck is to be avoided at all costs.

And that's sad.

That tells me there is a lot of systems with a lot of money invested in them that will never sound as good as it was designed to sound, and all the money invested in massive music software has been wasted if the system is only capable of delivering part of the music.

What money is saved if you forgo 40 bucks on a fuse and spend it on a nice re-issue, if the sound of the re-issue will be compromised by the stock one buck fuse?

I think nickle and diming your way in this hobby is the most foolish waste of time and money there is.

I know it goes against the grain and wisdom of the new generation of audiophile,but then again I am old school.

I still enjoy listening to music without any distaractions and giving it all my attention.

Lacee,

Nicely said.
Blunt, but nicely said.

Info on isoclean or the other manufacturer?

Was trying to find evidence that isoclean actually exists as a production facility, not just somebody with a stack of decals & etc. in their basement in Hong Kong.
Can't get past the opening page of their website, my computer gives me a malware warning when I click on any of the options. Can't find evidence of the company in the UL registry, but that might just mean that they are modifying another company's product rather than building from scratch.
Any info that is supplied with the fuses that would help trace down the production facility is of interest.
Info of interest includes;
1. Safety certification (UL and etc.) numbers.
2. Details of markings on fuses.
3. Factory address or contact info provided with the fuses.
4. Anything else that seems to indicate where the fuses are manufactured.

Hi Lacee

I do appreciate your candor and don't mind the bluntness. You definitely do make a lot of valid points. My reasoning for not spending more than a couple of bucks per fuse is because my gear isn't as nice as yours or the others mentioned where members have heard positive sonic differences or improvements by putting in the more expensive fuses in place.

From what I've read systems that have the more expensive gear that are also very resolving benefit most from these fuses. You've got Manley and Decware gear which is real nice and expensive to me. My gear i no where near that. One of your Shunyata power cords new costs almost as much as my entire system!

I highly doubt putting a couple of hundred dollars worth of fuses is going to make a difference with my gear. I think I'd be hitting diminishing returns. If I had a big dollar system though I'd be more open to the pricier fuses.

Lacee wrote "Years ago Peter Aczel suggested".

Lacee, had not heard of Peter Aczel so I did a search for him. All I can say is thank you very much!!!!

His article"10 biggest lies in audio" at http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_26_r.pdf is the best audio magazine or internet article that I have ever read.

I'd put it up as the best and most accurate audio article ever written.

For someone reading this thread that wants to really understand what is going on, please read the whole article, but read section 4 a couple times.

Mr. Jones , you might also do well to read Paul McGowan's PS Tracks blog. If you are as open to having your own assumptions challenged as you are to challenging the assumptions of others, you might actually discover that not all matters can be answered by measurements or double-blind tests ( which have long been abandoned by audio designers as useless). For others, I would,indeed, recommend you read Mr. Aczel's diatribe. It puts him squarely in the conspiracy theory camp occupied by people who have NOTHING to do with invention, innovation or the furthering of this great hobby. Mr. Aczel would have you believe that William Zane Johnson of Audio Research was a dishonest or deluded huckster trying to lead you down the garden path. Mr. Jones either failed to understand Lacee 's point or he's just here to throw boogers at everyone who wants to share their audio discoveries. I'll let greater minds be the judge.

I remember reading this article a long time ago and it still makes me smile.
The first reason: I bought it whole hog. Every word.
The second reason: He wasn't always right.

There is another thread somewhere, here, that addressed the issue of a switch box and it was pointed out the variances it introduces making it unreliable for 'proper' A/B switching. It can't be done reliably. Whether the poster was correct or not, I can't say, but Aczel doesn't necessarily have the last word on this as I don't remember what he wrote being on a stone tablet.

I'l stick to my own, lying eyes (ears) every time.

Folks.

Think it is time for me to quit on this thread whatever else I would have said is already in the article:) (although if anybody posts info that would allow me to trace down fuse manufacturer info that is still of interest).

Happy listening!

I couldn't find info, other than reviews that state that HIFi Tuning Fuses are made in Germany. I did find this but it is way over my head:
http://www.hifi-tuning.com/pdf/wlfr.eng.pdf

Hope it helps some.

God bless you, nonoise! I lived in Germany for several years and I can tell you that neither the EU nor the very controlling and quality-contro crazy German government would allow HiFi Tuning to sell, let alone export something used in electronics that was either dangerous or not what it was claimed to be. The document you have provided is evidence of this. Of course, there's no way to prove to skeptics that this document was not produced by a mad scientist employed by a religious cult. ;-)

Well forty bucks isn't outrageous money to spend even if your gear isn't expensive.
The DecWare amp sells for about one thousand dollars, brand new and it's one of the best amps I've ever owned.
All 2 watts of this amp drives my Ref 3A Grand Veenas to very pleasurable levels in my smaller room.

It's the tone that matters to me, not the volume, or amount of bass impact,yet I notice no lack of bass with the Decware doing the amplification.

So,I wouldn't limit the use of a HiFi fuse to only high end gear.

Remember what Aczel said(before his myth busting days)that fuses degrade your sound.
I have years of experience with all manner and stripe of amplifiers to back this up.

Interesting what Mr.Aczel's take would be on a fuse that costs 40 bucks, but I'll wager it would be in the denier category.
Kind of ironic isn't it, but still keeping with his 180 degree turn in this hobby, and I'll wager he can pretty much lay claim to being the father of the whole denier cult so fashionable today.
And so sad.

To me if you are of the belief that everything is bunk and hype, then this must be a very uninteresting and boring hobby, unless your thrills are debunking things. If you feel there is nothing to be discovered, that nothing can improve upon stock or vintage, then to me ,what's the point of investing any money in anything in the hobby.
That's stagnation to me, and not any fun.

Also, remember that Mr.Aczel originally felt that things could be improved from stock.
Fuses were one thing that he felt had a sonic signature.

So why is it so hard to grasp the concept of one fuse being better than another?

Again we are talking 40 bucks, if the cost is the only reason to shy away from it, then again to me, this isn't the type of hobby for you to be in.

I personally don't think the cost of an upgraded fuse like the HiFi tuning supremmes that I now use is a ripp off.

If I did I would still be using my solid copper fuse replacements and be done with it, sans the protection that a fuse brings.
To me the peace of mind of knowing I also get protection besides better sound is the real plus.

I should add that yes the HiFi Supreme fuse did improve the already great sound of my Decware amp, as did the IsoCleans when they were used in AtmaSphere,Classe,and Cary amplifiers.

You can spend a lot more money and not get any results as pleasing as you do with a decent upgraded fuse.

It's safe, simple to install,improves the sound, and the amplifier is easily returned to stock condition, which is a real plus if you are into the vintage thing.There is no audio butchery involved and anyone can do it, no engineer's degree is needed.

To my ears the upgraded audio fuse from reputable manufacturers such as HiFi tuning,should be the very first thing an audiophile buys when he starts on the road to getting all the music from his system.

After this is done, most everything else will fall into place, and you'll notice how simple things that you once took for granted or paid no attention to, really do matter, and matter a lot more when you address them from the electrical panel to the panel speaker, or cone, your choice.

Speaking of panels, Magnepan speakers are prime candidates for upgraded fuses, and I know several owners who bypass the fuse altogether and get better sound.

Getting back to Peter Aczel,he is one piece of audio that I really do enjoy more in his old "vintage" personna.

Vhiner: As always, within your last two postings in particular, continue to perpetuate your simplistic reductionist interpretation of the entire factual picture.

10-08-11: Vhiner
"...you might actually discover that not all matters can be answered by measurements or double-blind tests (which have long been abandoned by audio designers as useless).

>>> Factual or not, equivalent/applicable testing methods are universally utilized throughout the WORLD's various scientific/engineering fields. You know, real-world meat and potato contributions to what you've become accustomed to in modern life. Not some niche, sales-driven, motivated market pandering to self-absorbed egotists. HiFi might be YOUR limited frontier of electronics, but I'm here to tell you there's a whole world out there that dwarfs this hobbies’ exploitation of early engineering achievements before "HiFi" was even trending.

10-08-11: Vhiner
"For others, I would, indeed, recommend you read Mr. Aczel's diatribe. It puts him squarely in the conspiracy theory camp occupied by people who have NOTHING to do with invention, innovation or the furthering of this great hobby."

>>> This "great hobby", as you refer to, has grown to perpetuate equipment $$$ales by whatever means necessary, including praying on human insecurities, doubt, and ego - just like all product sales! Your industry-supported magazine “reviewer gods” merely exists to perpetuate sales of their employer's magazines and sustain advertising revenue. And just what exactly are THEY directly contributing to "invention and innovation"?

10-08-11: Vhiner
"I lived in Germany for several years and I can tell you that neither the EU nor the very controlling and quality-contro crazy German government would allow HiFi Tuning to sell, let alone export something used in electronics that was either dangerous or not what it was claimed to be."

>>> Meeting safety regulations is one thing, and as long as they perform to said standards, meet regulatory obligation. Any "alluded" performance gain claims are most certainly marketable, even in Germany, as with any boutique power cables made in the EU, though probably mandate CE certification, unlike...

Vhiner:
"The document you have provided is evidence of this. Of course, there's no way to prove to skeptics that this document was not produced by a mad scientist employed by a religious cult. ;-)"

>>> Oh brother! If I had a nickel for every audio/non-audio manufacturer-generated embellished/bloated
"marketing comparison", which illuminated their product tiering over a "specific" or selected few competitors, I could better support my Starbucks' chemical dependency. They, like most audio reviews, should be considered with an open mind. I'm not saying the Tuning Fuse data is false or embellished, but I, like most engineering fundamentalist, would have a warmer fuzzy with independent testing having no motivational biasing - just like other testing agencies for all types of industry.

Congratulations, Metro04. After attempting unsuccessfully to assassinate a hard-working, reputable inventor's credibility, you now spit on the evidence you perpetually demand. You really are the exceptional intellect you portray yourself to be. Would it be too strenuous for you (before it's time for another nap) to go into depth about how the measurements provided here are so clearly bogus? I can hardly wait to be dazzled by your technical rebuttal to the measurements posted here on this thread. You are, after all, fully qualified to judge the results, are you not? It'd be nice to hear about those qualifications as well since you're the only one here claiming to be "technically" qualified. You are questioning the folks at HiFi Tuning. Wouldn't it be good idea to establish for everyone here what your extensive credentials are? Just to set the record straight, if it's not too much to bother.

All of my previous accusations stand corrected, regarding Vhiner's blatant twisted misinterpretations of my, and others, posted comments. It's become obvious, at this juncture, that it's his inept reading skills that are at fault. I defer you to the contents of my previous posting's last paragraph to contradict yet another of Vhiner's full cranial jelletization episodes. I trust that a second attempt to re-read its content will expose his repeating deficiencies. And, without a doubt, believes everything he reads as gospel regarding audio.

Again, if you can't keep up, take notes!

Metro04,

Oh, I *do* stand corrected; you are not a mere genius. You are a passive-aggressive genius without the balls to back up your bluster. You think that by writing the words "I'm not saying HiFi Tuning's data is false or embellished" that this gives you cover for the implication in the same post that it's merely a marketing ploy. Only someone who thinks he's a genuine genius would think he could hide behind that thin piece of gauze. In addition to being passive aggressive, your position in this thread is also cowardly. You won't post your credentials, you won't listen to the product in question and you're too lazy to perform a measurement experiment to back up your.....beliefs? I thought you said beliefs weren't admissible here.

You may be a genius Metro04, but, as my grandpa once remarked about a similar fellow, "You're all hat and no cattle." Put up or shut up.

Nonoise - Thanks for the link. For what it is worth I'd write the Cliff notes version as 'our tests show that we have lower resistance and less vibration and we think this makes our fuses sound better'.

Metro4 / Vhiner - Please keep up the good work:).

Metro04, funny you should bring up Starbucks. Just this morning my wife wife was telling me how she had gone into Starbucks a couple of days ago to buy her bean and favorite banana-nut muffin. The young man behind the counter absolutely refused to sell her the muffin because they had lost the card showing the muffin's calorie count. I don't known if you known this, but in NYC vendors such as Starbucks are now required by law to display the calorie count of their food offerings. How sad and pathetic that it has come to this.

If you don't understand the connection (mine, anyway) to the subject being discussed in this thread, then there really is no hope for you and Vhiner to understand each other. IMO, if you were to try and understand, I think you just might find that is more to the enjoyment of music than you may have thought was possible. In the meantime, the bickering is getting really old

I'll quit if you will, Jeff. ;-)

Jeff_jones,

Thanks. Makes sense now.

Nonoise

09-20-11: Vhiner
"Jeff, If you're not an audiophile, why do you hang out here? This is an audiophile website."

09-22-11: Vhiner
"Have you ever noticed how the "this can't work" crowd never talk about actually trying the products they denigrate? It really is unbelievably boring and pointless."

It's only after these two early Vhiner postings that I took an offensive position against his remarks. I responded with factual considerations, yet all he's done, and continues to do, down to his latest posting, is avoid providing ANY proof that HE heard or can hear differences regarding boutique fuses since he has the testicular fortitude to take such an elitist stance over others points of views with his dominating "big man on campus" endless/provoking postings?. Instead, continues to post endless off topic distractions, diversionary antics, and adolescent manipulation of posted quotings, yet has the audacity to expect responses to his delusional provocations for further avoidance. It's all there in black and white, yet he has the gall to call me cowardly? I've been telling him, essentially, to quote his grandpa, to "Put up or shut up!" all along. The perpetuated bickering is the result of responding to his diversionary prevocational attacks and ramblings! He refuses to address that the onus of proof lies with the person(s) making the claims, as I have sighted many times, and how it is done in almost every field of study. Again, all this can be followed in my previous postings, as with all my responses, yet are continually dodged by Vhiner.

This is classic evasive behavior, on several levels, and textbook phsycology-101. Who's the coward?

Metro04,

You demanded measurements that explained Hifi Tuning's claims. It's been posted here. Why do you ignore the data and requests for your credentials? Because you continue to imply that they are snake oil salesmen, you owe the inventors at HiFi Tuning an apology. This isn't about you or me. It's about unqualified people like you slandering the good products of others, which you've never even tried or measured, by the way. If someone did this to something you made, you might begin to understand how wrong it is.

Check out Mr. Jones' other thread:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?htech&1318078909&openflup&2&4#2

Apparently, I'm not the only member who is perplexed by someone who has contempt for a hobby choosing to post on a website dedicated to it.

Wow, Metro04 and Jeff_Jones,
If you want to read about and go crazy over some audiophile tweaks that will really turn you inside out check out the Coconut Audio products. They are way crazier in concept and believability than audiophile fuses. I can't wait to hear your reaction to these products.

"I can't wait to hear your reaction to these products. "

How do they sound:).

Don't know, but it sure would be fun to see if they have any influence on the musicality of one's system. Just curious have you guys ever tried the tweak which I believe involves placing a nickel, dime, and a quarter (I think this is the right combo) on top of your speakers? Maybe someone knows the correct amount? I've heard this before and could of sworn it made a difference and cheap too!

Ok guys,back to your corners.

For the curious "I want the measurements to prove it types" I would ask that they just use a simple chunk of copper wire,such as Romex, and strip the ends to make them bare.
Then insert said copper fuse replacements in the place of the cheap stock speaker protection fuses.
I would not want to be responsible for any calamities if one were to bypass all fuses with copper replacements.
Because I have and got away unscatehed doesn't mean you will.

But,,, and a big but, if you are curious about what sonics a simple fuse can alter(notice I said alter and not indicated that the fuse has a sound of it's own per se),then by all means have a listen for yourself.
If you like the sound better with the DIY fuse replacement then you will have a strong indication about how a HiFi tuning fuse will make your system sound.
Again, folks with Magnepans have mostly done this already, if you haven't, try it, but remember you are on your own.Any stupid volume issues or all thumbs types ,you are on your own if calamity ensues, so becareful.

What you should hear is more clairity, less mush,and more dynamics, and more blah blah blah, stuff everyone always says you hear when you tweak your gear.

In truth isn't that what we are all after?
More of everything good from our systems?

If $40.00 is all it takes or zero dollars if you roll your own and say a couple of Hail Mary's, then why not just try it and prove to yourself once and for all?
Who needs a white paper or some audio nerd to tell you if something works or not.
Don't rely on anyone, but yourself.

Ah, but "the ears can't be trusted!" or some such drivel I am sure will spring forth from the deniers, and then they'll try to disprove what you have just heard with YOUR own ears(not theirs).

Just don't pay any attention to that nonsensical rhetoric.
It has nothing to do with music, or this hobby,because if we don't rely on our ears in this hobby, then we should not be involved in this hobby.

It's all about the MUSIC!.Not the specs.

And unless I am a weirder bird than I think I am, I use my ears and not my eyes when I play music in my system.

So, the next time one of the "crowd" chimes in with "show me the proof", tell them they can't believe everything they read.
Which is what my old man beat into my head.

"ever tried the tweak which I believe involves placing a nickel, dime, and a quarter (I think this is the right combo) on top of your speakers?"

There's been a lot written about this one, it is usually now referred to as the crossover tweak if memory serves.
The theory is that if you can get people comfortable setting small amounts of money on a speaker then you can eventually get some of them addicted to throwing large amounts at a stereo.

ps. Somebody tell Vhiner I'm not serious

10-09-11: Vhiner
"Metro04,You demanded measurements that explained Hifi Tuning's claims. It's been posted here. Why do you ignore the data and requests for your credentials?"

>>> And yet, AGAIN, you can only resort to manufacturing BS to compensate for lacked intelligence! Just where have I ignored HFTF's data? I don’t see a single reference in any of my postings alluding to your typically deluded incitements – EVER! It’s the same ol’ pattern each time you respond while conveniently ignoring provided examples of real-world scientific/engineering practices. Are you completely inept at interpreting written statements at face value, thus resorting to continual postings of demented, conjured- up nonsense to suit you prevocational accusations? And AGAIN, where is the proof I’ve requested from you to support YOUR claims of hearing fuse improvements? Just more of your typical modus operandi to elude exposure?

Oh, and anytime you want to balls up and compare who’s more technically qualified, just let me know! I’m sure you’ll have a heart-warming story to share about how you successfully replaced your grandmother’s toaster plug without burning down the house, or the light bulb in your sister’s Easy Bake Oven. When you can design, build, and properly test audio, RF, and digital circuits from scratch (as minimum examples), or diagnose and repair just about any item of electronics, then I’ll have a trace of respect for your opinions. Lastly, when you can prove, without a doubt, that YOU can hear improved performance with your fuses, then I will apologize to HFTF for your alleged accusations of my slandering.

Regarding Jeff's other thread, or postings within any forum topic, so what? I'm proud of anyone with a questioning attitude regarding the audio world's equivalence to the sheer numbers of endless eye-witness flying saucer, Loch Ness monster, or Bigfoot sightings. His, and many others who post their thoughts, are periodically ridiculed by this predominantly established, self-fueled “religion”. He and others have every right to his or her opinions as the next person. This site is for everyone interested in various levels of audio, and primarily for buying/selling used gear. Are their opinions really any different than the endless claims of “unverified” product improvement gains spewed in these postings every day?

I have nothing more to say to Vhiner that hasn't already been said multiple times already, especially with regards to his predictable, irrational responses. It’s all yours, big guy!

Awwwe, Lacee, and you were so entertaining right up until the last third of your posting. :(

"Ah, but "the ears can't be trusted!" or some such drivel I am sure will spring forth from the deniers, and then they'll try to disprove what you have just heard with YOUR own ears(not theirs)."

>>> Really, "drivel" and “nonsensical rhetoric”? Apparently, only the self-proclaimed golden-eared audiophile eludes what is WELL KNOWN and DOCUMENTED in the medical world! Yet if tested by ANY means, yields no better results than a guessing percentage. Maybe you can provide a single documented event where ANY participant correctly picked the better “anything” 80% of the time? None I've ever read, though folks here say the testing process is at fault, or has been rendered useless, yet similar or applicable tests are routinely performed world-wide throughout the medical, science, and engineering fields. I’m sure they’re all wrong in comparison to this niche audio hobby. :-)

The non-believers remind me of small kids. When my son was 4 years, he simply refused to eat broccoli. His friends did not eat broccoli and it influenced him. I suggested him to try a piece. He refused for several months. Then one fine day he decided to give it a shot. I will not say that broccoli is his favorite veggie, but he does not find it "yucky" and enjoys the stir-fried chicken-brocolli dish his mom makes.
I say guys, why not try and then decide? Why do you make opinions of stuff that you have not tried? I understand that there is 30-days trial period or something like that. But please let us know about your experience "after" you try them. Good luck!!

Jeff,

Your lack of seriousness makes you a far more worthy opponent than I have been on this forum. I took the bait and that's my bad. I, do, however, find it hard to resist defending good products made by good people. Questioning the veracity of a product is fair; ridiculing the people who make the product and those who use it is nasty. It's interesting to see that people who ridicule others and question other people's honesty don't want to be on the receiving end of the same treatment. Maybe there's a lesson there. I'm sure there's a far better way to make the point, but someone else will have to figure it out. With regard to the OP's question. I agree that it has been "asked and answered." The joy these fuses continue to bring me is one thing I wish for everyone....even Metro04.

Double extra super special attaboy amen Metro4 !!!

10-10-11: Metro04
"Maybe you can provide a single documented event where ANY participant correctly picked the better “anything” 80% of the time?"

Can you provide a single documented event where the participants could not correctly pick the HI Fuse? Probably not.
You don't know they make no difference any more than the guy who sits and listens and trusts his ears and says they do.
IOW - You are both just guessing. But you are as sure as he is in what you believe, and you poke fun like you know something he doesn't.

Sebrof: Again, the onus of proof lies with the person claiming to have extraordinary human abilities. If you “claim” that you can read minds, move objects telepathically, hover, see through walls, or any other abnormal levels of sensory abilities, then be prepared to have to prove it to the civilized world. That’s pretty much a world-wide stance regarding human feats of this nature. If you opt not to be subjected to testing, if not for scientific reasons alone, then don't expect anyone to take you seriously. I realize it's a tough reality.

Humans have been making all kinds of extraordinary claims and witnessings since man’s beginning, yet never seem to overwhelmingly pass verification methods beyond guessing percentages, or simply can't/won't produce factual evidence. You can wrangle any defensive angles you want, but outside the sanctuary of your audiophile world, I’m afraid you’ll have to back up your claims. :-)

Metro - Where anyone draws the line between superhuman and human is completely arbitrary.
Zip cord vs. expensive speaker cables superhuman?
NOS Tele vs. new production Electro Harmonix?
Budget amp vs. expensive amp?
mp3s vs. WAV?

You just happen to draw it beneath Hi Fi fuses (and brilliant pebbles in the other thread you started), some other guy draws the line somewhere else. My coworker was telling me the other day I was nuts because I said an iTunes-purchased album I copied to CD sounded bad, and I was wasting my money because I ordered the CD.

2 things I've learned in this hobby:
1. There is enough snake oil in Hi Fi to make your head spin
2. There is way more that goes into what we hear than we know in 2011. We are just scratching the surface.

My guess is that I would not hear a Hi Fi fuse in my system, and that probably nobody can in any system. It appears that it's your guess as well, but a guess it is.
FWIW - If it were me I would swap out the fuses with my eyes closed and see if I could REALLY tell, but not everyone's like me.

I make no claims that "you" ,you know who you are,can hear the differences that a DIY or HiFi fuse can make.

I only claim that I can hear the improved performance of the music.

What I DO claim, is complete acceptance of the claims of Peter Aczel ,going back to the mid 1970's, that fuses do indeed degrade the sound of whatever system they are used in.

Again, I re-iterate,go back to his earliest writings in the Audio Critic and you will see his observations on what bypassing the speaker protection fuses did.

I ,being of the ilk that would rather try it for myself before I pass judgement,did try the same fuse bypass way back in the mid 70's on my Amber stereo amp.

Then I did the same with every tube and solid state power amp, or fused speaker that I owned, and the list is longer than my arm.

Never once did I ever experience any calamities, or damage any gear.
Everytime, the system sounded better.

I used old speaker wire or Romex which cost me nothing.

It was cheap, and DIY, so that should garner some points with a few audiophiles I would think?

But besides being DIY and cheap, it worked.
Just like Peter Aczel said it would.

My ears weren't fooled by advertising hype, I wasn't biased because i had just sold the farm to buy the tweak and I also never saw anyone at THAT TIME say it wouldn't work.

It's only been in the last few years, since the same Peter Aczel made his infamous audio myths, that a new breed of audiophile has emerged on the horizon.

You see him on all the sites.
Always the same arguments ,so much in fact you would think it was the same soul!

He never tries any of the stuff others say work.

Yet he knows for sure that it can't.
How's that for magic hocus pocus abilities?
That trumps a golden ear any day of the week in my book.

He doesn't trust your ears or his, but he just knows that certain things can't work as claimed.

I always wonder, "what's in it for him?"

What's the satisfaction? Is it a sense of superiority that he is too smart to fall for such drivel as a fuse having any significance?

A fuse is a relatively insignificant little thing.Not much to it,it only serves one purpose and that is to blow it's self up.

And yet way back when in the 1970's, the author of the 10 great Audio Myths, felt this little bit of nothing, could indeed play a major role in the sound of the gear it was used in.

Some of the more esoteric gear dispense with fuses altogether for just this reason and use thermal protection.

Ah, and some folks think that fuses don't matter, because they just "know" that they don't.

The next time those folks who don't trust their ears buy any new music or gear, I have to wonder why they would ever do such a thing?

Surely ,if they "think" the new amp sounds better than the old,those thoughts are based on assumptions, hype, marketing and mystique, and have nothing to do with the sound.How could it?The ears lie!Or so they are telling us ,the folks who do rely on our ears to make or break a purchase.

If the ears lie, then why bother with room tuning, or room correction?
It would be a waste of money, and just more trickery.

Ah, but here you can measure the before and after difference of the treatment, and maybe just prove it to yourself that what your ears are telling you is the truth and not a lie.

I am sure you could also measure the before and after effects of a DIY or upgraded fuse.

And if that is how you want to spend your time in this hobby, measuring and debunking and not listening, then by all means have fun.

Personally, I'll be searching out more stuff like the HiFi fuses, and listening to the music, all the music.

"It's only been in the last few years, since the same Peter Aczel made his infamous audio myths, that a new breed of audiophile has emerged on the horizon."

Lacee - I think the thing is that we've always been around, the proof of that is probably the fact that it takes measurement and science geeks to build this stereo stuff in the first place, but the game has gotten so far out of hand that it causes more people to speak up.
For example:
$4000.00 cables and $80 fuses both coincidentally made wonderful by the magic of dark metallurgy and direction arrows and cryo treatment, acceptance that the only way to test something near the limits of perception is to throw out the instruments and scientifically proven methods and then let your imagination run free for two or three weeks, acceptance that wonderful and expensive things work in the world of audio but magically fail to work when applied to the rest of the world of electronics, etc..

That kind of stuff does inspire you to make sure that at least the new folks know that a lot of the stuff in audio is just plain nuts. If folks like you who have been around a good while want to hang with "listen with the ears and don't worry about the psychology" that is certainly your privilege, and it is fun, but if you do something that is scientifically nuts then it seems reasonable that people will point this out now and again. If I walked around with a pan on my head to block my thoughts from aliens, I'd expect this to inspire some conversation.

Jeff,
While I agree that there is enough hype or snake oil in high end audio, it does not apply to all the products. I had a pair of Nordost 4Flat speaker cables for 3 years. Then I decided to try out the current Signal Cables I have. It did not take more than a minute to realize that the Signal Cables were much better. The price difference was not hundreds of dollars between these 2 cables. Later I also did try a pair of Nordost Blue Heavens and Red Dawns which are expensive than my cables, but did not like the sound they imparted in my system. They were a bit bright to my taste. Where is the psychology factor in this case?

The point I am trying to drive is, some hobbyists may go with the "expensive-is-better" theme. But most others will decide on stuff after they experience it. If it does not suite them, they will return or sell it. What baffles me is the "science text book" abiding community makes comments without experiencing things. So you guys totally assume things?

One more thing - I think it is a bit wrong to assume that humans know everything about metals/electricity/etc in physics. There may be some "attribute" about stuff that humans are currently not aware of, that remains to be discovered years later. Yes, I may be wrong, until proven right. But who knew (when first calculated) that there exists matter in this universe that travels faster than the speed of light.

Human brain is so used to paradigms that make sense of everyday life that new paradigms do not seem to make any sense. That is why it is called paradigm shift.

Nicely stated, Lacee. I agree with your perspective save one comment:

*****What's the satisfaction? Is it a sense of superiority that he is too smart to fall for such drivel as a fuse having any significance?*****

I think you got it backwards. It is a sense on inferiority. Inferiority at not being able to hear what others can, or fear of not being able to. The proof of this is in a very telling comment by Metro when he states:

**** the onus of proof is on the person claiming to have extraordinary human abilities****

There is nothing extra ordinary about it. Some have better, or better trained, hearing/listening ability than others. That's all. What I find ironic about all this is that the differences that we are talking about pale in comparison to the differences that musicians debate concerning equipment. Differences, as in the case of Stradivarius violins, no one has reliably been able to measure and quantify.

Frogman,

You're right about musicians. All the guitarists I know (some famous, some not) are very particular about whether they use a certain tube amplifier or one of solid state design. None of them argue over whether there's a difference.

Milpai - "snake oil in high end audio, it does not apply to all the products."

No argument here.

"So you guys totally assume things?"

When it comes to what we regard as snake oil one side assumes away science and the other side assumes away the belief that it makes sense to disregard science. The assumption count has to come up even at the end. There is a neat thread somewhere on this site that asks folks about their personal limits of acceptance for what is 'obvious' snake oil and what is worth consideration.
You are likely not reading this with a pan on your head because you assume you do not have to worry about it protecting you from being harmed by aliens, but you can't prove that aliens aren't reading your mind right now, you assume.

"I think it is a bit wrong to assume that humans know everything about metals/electricity/etc in physics."

Agreed, but if we didn't do the best we could with what we know then you'd probably have that pan on your head right now.

10-12-11: Jeff_jones
"There is a neat thread somewhere on this site that asks folks about their personal limits of acceptance for what is 'obvious' snake oil and what is worth consideration."

To me, this is the crux of the debate. When someone's limit is above or below their own some people simply cannot deal with that.
George Carlin had a bit like this about driving (apologies in advance for butchering):
When you come up on someone who is driving slower than you, you say, "C'mon A-hole, move it! That guy's an A-hole!!"
When someone passes you, you say, "Look at that mainiac! That guy's a maniac!!"

Jeff, thanks for sparing me all the typing to basically reiterate our mutual opinions, though you presented it more eloquently than I could, or would’ve.

I’m afraid I really don’t have anything more to submit to this debate that hasn’t been expressed many times over by now, or in previous controversial topics heavily debated over the years where moderators ended up pulling the plug.

These debates continue year after year, but the reality is, neither “hardened” camp really ever sways or converts, but that’s okay, too, just like so many other things in life.

On that note, my friend, I’ll leave you to it.

Sebrof, Lacee... Pleasure!