Upgrading Fuses

Dougmc - What you say does make sense, however there is always another point of view.
One way for this company to make it's upgrades seem more valuable would be to make other somewhat similar upgrades seem more valuable. IOW - They sell better resistors and capacitors, connectors, whatever. "Do they really make a difference?" the potential customer might ask himself. Well heck, even the fuse makes a difference, so the upgrades must make a difference also. "I'm gettin' them upgrades, Level 3 for me."
I don't know the company of course, so it's purely hypothetical. But I believe it's a valid point.

I just came upon this thread and offer the following story.

I own a pre-amplifier made by a well known and well regarded U.S. company that has been around, in one form or another, for over two decades. It designs and sells its own stock electronic equipment and also sells upgrades to that stock equipment. My pre-amplifier, which I bought on Audiogon, was an early prototype of its highest level upgrade.

About 10 months ago, I was talking to someone at the company about whether my pre-amplifier lacked any of the current upgrades available. He suggested I take a picture of the insides and send it to him by e-mail. Then, as an after-thought, he asked if I had considered upgrading the fuse. I hadn’t. He said that the people at the company had recently experimented with upgraded fuses and found they improved the sound. He said I could do it myself and suggested that I give it a try. I replied that my knowledge about the inside of electronic equipment was practically zero. No problem, he replied - the fuse was tucked in a little drawer under the IEC power cord receptacle and accessible from the outside. He would provide me with the fuse specification and the names of some supply houses.

The person who spoke to me had no reason to hype the improvement made by the upgraded fuse. He was not trying to sell me the fuse, and he was not trying to sell me his services to replace my fuse. Furthermore, unlike the posters to this thread, to a certain degree he was putting his company’s commercial reputation on the line, because handing out bogus advice could damage its reputation. Finally, who is in a better position to judge whether a fuse makes a particular device sound better than the people who designed, make and service that device on an ongoing basis?

Metro04/Jeff,

My point was related to "generalization" that you make regarding the fuses or other upgrades. You guys make a point that all fuses are same and there is no point in upgrading them. A $0.25 fuse is same as $45 fuse.

On the same lines, I had a particular speak wire that I replaced with a slightly more expensive speaker wire and I could easily make out the difference. But when I tried an expensive speaker wire than the one I currently have, I did not like what I heard. Mind you, I could easily afford the expensive cables, but I did not, since they were not to my taste.

But per you guys, audiophiles spend like crazy and go for expensive stuff. Does this at least make any sense to you that not all audiophiles have that mentality? On the same lines we DO hear the differences - which you claim do not exist. At least I tried a cable, which I did not like and simply returned. I would never make a statement about anything that I have not tried myself. That would be prejudice -isn't it?

I hope you get my point.

Oh well.

Milpai - What exactly is your point, how does it relate to fuses or to anything I've written and no I'm not inclined to write about my system (but you can probably figure most of it out from other threads if it is important to you).

10-19-11: Milpai
Well, how conveniently do the non-believers ignore genuine requests.

If Jeff has yet to answer your particular question, maybe you could send him a PM instead of attempting to incite others, because the exact same question has and will be posed to the “believers”.

Good day.

Well, how conveniently do the non-believers ignore genuine requests. Jeff (or any non-believers), you do not mention your system nor attempt to reply why I chose my existing cable over some expensive cables.

Carol 10/3 cables work quite well as power cord wire, but it's bulky.

I've used FIM, Shunyata, and many Hubbel receptacles, anything is better than what comes with the house, but some are better than others,if your pocket book rules the day, then look for some cheaper used plugs.

As far as IEC and male plug ends, I've found that the cheaper Furutech copper plugs do a good job for reasonable money.

I have also noticed a big step up when I made a new 20 amp power cord using the Rhodium 20 amp plugs from Furutech and their top line power cord wire.

It was costly, but still cheaper than a 20 amp Annaconda CX.

I have 4 Annaconda Helix power cords,the Hydra 8 and Hydra 2 power conditioners and two dedicated lines going into 30 amp breakers and using 10 guage solid core Romex.

My breaker is only a few feet away from my gear in my listening room, so perhaps the increase in sound quality by using upgraded cords and fuses could be more pronounced in such a situation.

But, I have been fooling around with DIY power cords and fuses since the 1980's and in a few different situations.I always noticed a level of improvement by using upgraded cords and fuses, even if they were cheap and DIY.

There are audible differences, and those differences are for the better .Once you hear them you won't settle for stock again, no matter how expensive the system is.

Look at your power needs from the panel to where your gear accepts it, and everyting in between.

It's a complete system, and like you've read millions of times'all systems can be compromised with weak links.

It's also cumulative.

If you can't do it all at once,try one component at a time.

Upgrade the power cord and fuse and receptacles and if you like the improvement, move on to the rest of your gear.

If you can swing dedicated lines, all the better.

I've found that one reason some tweaks get a bad rap is because they are expected to work miracles and transform a mediocre system into a high end one.

That's not going to happen.

But if a few tweaks used in the right places are combined with dedicated lines and the power is addressed, you can make a mediocre system sound better than it did.

Adding one HiFi Supreme fuse to an otherwise stock system, may or may not make an audible improvemnt if all the other essentials(for me) aren't addressed.

But leaving it out of the mix of a finely tweaked system which does have all the goodies, doesn't make sense to me either.

And in this case you should be able to easily hear what it can do to improve an already good system.

In all my years at this hobby, it amazes me why such a simple little investment(in an upgraded fuse)can create such controvery.

Fuses degrade the sound, you can try DIY replacemnents and discover this yourself as Peter Aczel discussed back in the late 70's early 80s, or you can just spend the money and buy the IsoCleans or HiFi Supremes, and know that your gear is protected and sounds better.

So why don't high end manufacturers add them to their products?
Some do.But most also only supply the most modest types of power cords.

HiFi is all about enjoying the music and making it sound the most acceptable it can to YOUR ears.

That's why they leave the aftermarket stuff to the purchaser to decide if one brand of power cord for example is better than the other.

In all fairness this isn't a cop out.
How are they to know what your room sounds like, what other components you have and how you've addressed the power?

They don't, because they are not big brother forcing you to bend to their wishes, although a few have tried this type of approach.Most have failed,and have become more conventional.

No, it's up to us to assemble audio systems that meet the demands of our listening environments and our ears.

Sorry if that sounds a bit out of tune with the way the newer thinking is concerning our hobby,but it's the way I've always approached it, and my experiences have been more positive than not.

All gear can be improved, or at least made to sound the way that it was designed to sound, or perhaps even exceed the expectations of the designer.

Sometimes all you need to do is replace the stock fuse.

Jedinite,

I like my Hubbels...it'll be interesting to hear whether they work for you.

Hi you guys

In my systems I do have aftermarket power cords and power conditioning on my system but they are all very modest. My power cords are 14AWG Hospital Power cords that are purple and gray. I swear they look a lot like the Iron Lung Jellyfish power cords but for much less. My front end has power conditioning via a Topaz 1.8KVa Isolation Transformer and a Belkin PureAV surge protector power strip. Not the most expensive gear but I have heard a reduction in noise floor. My amp is plugged directly into the wall socket.

Before I get to the fuses I'm going to try some DIY power cords using Belden 83803 wire with Sonar plugs followed by a change to Hubbell 8300 Hospital Outlets. I'm trying to not overspend on tweaks or upgrades like I have in the past.
If I get noticeable improvements out of these tweaks I'll make the jump to fuses if I can find them at a price I find reasonable.

Jeff,
You did not comment on my Nordost VS Signal Cable point. The price point of the lower end Nordost was about $200 compared to the $350 Signals. The higher end Nordost were north of $800 and I did not prefer them.
BTW, I am eager to know your components. You do not list them, so I would not know what your preference is.

Did someone blow a fuse?

Happy listening, indeed, to everyone.

Happy listening is indeed the end result ,and the intended one at that.
Why else bother with the expense of upgrades?

Lacee - I'm in the camp that gives up after 3 pages of the same arguments.
Happy listening!

I am firmly in the camp that upgraded power cords, whether DIY or store bought name brand and upgrades to the power delivery are crucial if not mandatory today.

Wallplugging your gear , or going straight into the wall which was the norm back when I started in the 1970's,for me, isn't the way to get the most bang for your audio buck.

And neither is a stock fuse.

So, if you are in the camp that can hear the differences that power cords and power line upgrades can do for your system then you owe it to yourself to go the next step and purge your gear from one of the last bottlenecks to good sound.

That they cost so little, is a novelty in this day, when you hear what they can do.

Those upgraded power cords are still at the mercy of the stock fuse.

Replace the fuse and finally hear all the improvements that the power cords and conditioners can deliver.

It's really that simple and cheaper than the countless amp,speaker trials and errors audiophiles submit themselves to.

It's all in the little details, add them up and you start to see the big picture.

Sebrof - "To me, this is the crux of the debate. When someone's limit is above or below their own some people simply cannot deal with that."

Good point.

Jedinite,

If you haven't experimented with a good power conditioner or after market power cords, you might consider that before fuse upgrades. The advantage of power conditioners is that they can improve every component plugged into them. They also lower the noise floor to such an extent that you'll hear tweaks and adjustments to your system more readily. Shunyata and PS Audio gear can be found for reasonable prices on a'gon. Not that it proves anything, but my father was thrilled with the improvements he heard recently after we applied power conditioning to his midfi system. He has the NAD 326BEE and Meadowlark speakers, which are hardly pricey. Good luck on your journey.

I am lucky, I only had single fuse per component to change, but I would tend to agree that the fuse nearest the power cord would be the place to start, and perhaps that's as far as you need to go if you are pleased with the results.

Personally spending 200 dollars on gear worth 800 doesn't seem right to me,but if you feel the need then why should my opinions matter?

You see it doesn't bother me one way or the other how you spend your money.

No one has the right to say you shouldn't or that it is foolish.

But, spending money on things you have never heard is something that I think needs some thought.

Buying anything unheard has a 50/50 chance of you liking it or not.
That's why there's stuff on Gon.

So, unless you have some experience about what certain things like fuses or power cords or conditioners or dedicted lines can do to the sound of the music you listen to, then you are buying on faith, and relying on all of "us" and the advertising industry and are easy prey to the snake oil salesman.

I really can't say when the last time I was bitten by a snake oil salesman.

I usually do my homework and "listen with MY ears" before I decide to break out the wallet.

I would think this is the norm with most normal people ,hence no need for the evangelists to save our souls.

And yes to be able to discerne differences, good and bad or indifferent, is something that has to be learned.
Some have learned how and others have not, and so the need for measurements to soothe their insecurities in whatever white paper mumbo jumbo floats your boat.

It always helps if there is a fellow in a white lab coat or EEG attached somewhere.

I also feel that the specs of most gear made today(not vintage-sorry to say)are quite good and you might not see very much measured differences from one amp to the next for example.

And yet, people can and do buy one amp over the other and continue to do so, over and over.Look at the amp ads on Gon.
Now tell me, that all those amps for sale are bought and sold because of how they measure on paper or because of how they "sound"?

To belittle anyone's hearing ability is as bad as saying you must have golden ears.
Yet I know of many normal people not in this hobby, who can tell the differences between a tube amp and a solid state amp.

And despite what someone has said about musicians, the real one's are not tone deaf.

They futz about with transfomers, different raw speaker drivers and tubes, all in search of the "sound" that they want to get.
Why are modelling amps(they sample the tones of several makes and types of amps) so popular if musicians are unable to differentiate tonal differences?
It's the very essence of a modelling amp.
Sorry,that's one for the musicians, and a strike against the ears not being significant to a musician.
A musician's stuggle to find the right sound be it a violinist or a rocker is pretty much out there for all to read about,most guitarists have several amps and guitars and prize each one for it's own unique sound.
Are his ears being fooled?
He would laugh at that.

The only fellow who would settle for a cheap solid state guitar amp over a vintage tubed Fender reverb is the guy without the cash to buy the Fender amp.

And so to for the audiophiles who turn down their noses to the folks who can afford the stuff they can't,if they could they would.

Jedinite24,
I have been advised that the fuse next to the power cord is the only one you should change at first. If you hear improvements, only then you should proceed with changing the other fuses. I will do this sometimes in Jan, since I have much more higher priorities now.

When you upgrade fuses on an amplifier in addition to changing the fuses on each channel is the fuse next to the power cord changed as well? The reason I ask is I'm potentially looking at $200 to $275 expenditure depending on the fuses I choose on an amp I paid a total of $800 for. I still keep wondering if diminishing returns will be kicking in. Thanks

Jeff, thanks for sparing me all the typing to basically reiterate our mutual opinions, though you presented it more eloquently than I could, or would’ve.

I’m afraid I really don’t have anything more to submit to this debate that hasn’t been expressed many times over by now, or in previous controversial topics heavily debated over the years where moderators ended up pulling the plug.

These debates continue year after year, but the reality is, neither “hardened” camp really ever sways or converts, but that’s okay, too, just like so many other things in life.

On that note, my friend, I’ll leave you to it.

Sebrof, Lacee... Pleasure!

10-12-11: Jeff_jones
"There is a neat thread somewhere on this site that asks folks about their personal limits of acceptance for what is 'obvious' snake oil and what is worth consideration."

To me, this is the crux of the debate. When someone's limit is above or below their own some people simply cannot deal with that.
George Carlin had a bit like this about driving (apologies in advance for butchering):
When you come up on someone who is driving slower than you, you say, "C'mon A-hole, move it! That guy's an A-hole!!"
When someone passes you, you say, "Look at that mainiac! That guy's a maniac!!"

Milpai - "snake oil in high end audio, it does not apply to all the products."

No argument here.

"So you guys totally assume things?"

When it comes to what we regard as snake oil one side assumes away science and the other side assumes away the belief that it makes sense to disregard science. The assumption count has to come up even at the end. There is a neat thread somewhere on this site that asks folks about their personal limits of acceptance for what is 'obvious' snake oil and what is worth consideration.
You are likely not reading this with a pan on your head because you assume you do not have to worry about it protecting you from being harmed by aliens, but you can't prove that aliens aren't reading your mind right now, you assume.

"I think it is a bit wrong to assume that humans know everything about metals/electricity/etc in physics."

Agreed, but if we didn't do the best we could with what we know then you'd probably have that pan on your head right now.

Frogman,

You're right about musicians. All the guitarists I know (some famous, some not) are very particular about whether they use a certain tube amplifier or one of solid state design. None of them argue over whether there's a difference.

Nicely stated, Lacee. I agree with your perspective save one comment:

*****What's the satisfaction? Is it a sense of superiority that he is too smart to fall for such drivel as a fuse having any significance?*****

I think you got it backwards. It is a sense on inferiority. Inferiority at not being able to hear what others can, or fear of not being able to. The proof of this is in a very telling comment by Metro when he states:

**** the onus of proof is on the person claiming to have extraordinary human abilities****

There is nothing extra ordinary about it. Some have better, or better trained, hearing/listening ability than others. That's all. What I find ironic about all this is that the differences that we are talking about pale in comparison to the differences that musicians debate concerning equipment. Differences, as in the case of Stradivarius violins, no one has reliably been able to measure and quantify.

Jeff,
While I agree that there is enough hype or snake oil in high end audio, it does not apply to all the products. I had a pair of Nordost 4Flat speaker cables for 3 years. Then I decided to try out the current Signal Cables I have. It did not take more than a minute to realize that the Signal Cables were much better. The price difference was not hundreds of dollars between these 2 cables. Later I also did try a pair of Nordost Blue Heavens and Red Dawns which are expensive than my cables, but did not like the sound they imparted in my system. They were a bit bright to my taste. Where is the psychology factor in this case?

The point I am trying to drive is, some hobbyists may go with the "expensive-is-better" theme. But most others will decide on stuff after they experience it. If it does not suite them, they will return or sell it. What baffles me is the "science text book" abiding community makes comments without experiencing things. So you guys totally assume things?

One more thing - I think it is a bit wrong to assume that humans know everything about metals/electricity/etc in physics. There may be some "attribute" about stuff that humans are currently not aware of, that remains to be discovered years later. Yes, I may be wrong, until proven right. But who knew (when first calculated) that there exists matter in this universe that travels faster than the speed of light.

Human brain is so used to paradigms that make sense of everyday life that new paradigms do not seem to make any sense. That is why it is called paradigm shift.

"It's only been in the last few years, since the same Peter Aczel made his infamous audio myths, that a new breed of audiophile has emerged on the horizon."

Lacee - I think the thing is that we've always been around, the proof of that is probably the fact that it takes measurement and science geeks to build this stereo stuff in the first place, but the game has gotten so far out of hand that it causes more people to speak up.
For example:
$4000.00 cables and $80 fuses both coincidentally made wonderful by the magic of dark metallurgy and direction arrows and cryo treatment, acceptance that the only way to test something near the limits of perception is to throw out the instruments and scientifically proven methods and then let your imagination run free for two or three weeks, acceptance that wonderful and expensive things work in the world of audio but magically fail to work when applied to the rest of the world of electronics, etc..

That kind of stuff does inspire you to make sure that at least the new folks know that a lot of the stuff in audio is just plain nuts. If folks like you who have been around a good while want to hang with "listen with the ears and don't worry about the psychology" that is certainly your privilege, and it is fun, but if you do something that is scientifically nuts then it seems reasonable that people will point this out now and again. If I walked around with a pan on my head to block my thoughts from aliens, I'd expect this to inspire some conversation.

I make no claims that "you" ,you know who you are,can hear the differences that a DIY or HiFi fuse can make.

I only claim that I can hear the improved performance of the music.

What I DO claim, is complete acceptance of the claims of Peter Aczel ,going back to the mid 1970's, that fuses do indeed degrade the sound of whatever system they are used in.

Again, I re-iterate,go back to his earliest writings in the Audio Critic and you will see his observations on what bypassing the speaker protection fuses did.

I ,being of the ilk that would rather try it for myself before I pass judgement,did try the same fuse bypass way back in the mid 70's on my Amber stereo amp.

Then I did the same with every tube and solid state power amp, or fused speaker that I owned, and the list is longer than my arm.

Never once did I ever experience any calamities, or damage any gear.
Everytime, the system sounded better.

I used old speaker wire or Romex which cost me nothing.

It was cheap, and DIY, so that should garner some points with a few audiophiles I would think?

But besides being DIY and cheap, it worked.
Just like Peter Aczel said it would.

My ears weren't fooled by advertising hype, I wasn't biased because i had just sold the farm to buy the tweak and I also never saw anyone at THAT TIME say it wouldn't work.

It's only been in the last few years, since the same Peter Aczel made his infamous audio myths, that a new breed of audiophile has emerged on the horizon.

You see him on all the sites.
Always the same arguments ,so much in fact you would think it was the same soul!

He never tries any of the stuff others say work.

Yet he knows for sure that it can't.
How's that for magic hocus pocus abilities?
That trumps a golden ear any day of the week in my book.

He doesn't trust your ears or his, but he just knows that certain things can't work as claimed.

I always wonder, "what's in it for him?"

What's the satisfaction? Is it a sense of superiority that he is too smart to fall for such drivel as a fuse having any significance?

A fuse is a relatively insignificant little thing.Not much to it,it only serves one purpose and that is to blow it's self up.

And yet way back when in the 1970's, the author of the 10 great Audio Myths, felt this little bit of nothing, could indeed play a major role in the sound of the gear it was used in.

Some of the more esoteric gear dispense with fuses altogether for just this reason and use thermal protection.

Ah, and some folks think that fuses don't matter, because they just "know" that they don't.

The next time those folks who don't trust their ears buy any new music or gear, I have to wonder why they would ever do such a thing?

Surely ,if they "think" the new amp sounds better than the old,those thoughts are based on assumptions, hype, marketing and mystique, and have nothing to do with the sound.How could it?The ears lie!Or so they are telling us ,the folks who do rely on our ears to make or break a purchase.

If the ears lie, then why bother with room tuning, or room correction?
It would be a waste of money, and just more trickery.

Ah, but here you can measure the before and after difference of the treatment, and maybe just prove it to yourself that what your ears are telling you is the truth and not a lie.

I am sure you could also measure the before and after effects of a DIY or upgraded fuse.

And if that is how you want to spend your time in this hobby, measuring and debunking and not listening, then by all means have fun.

Personally, I'll be searching out more stuff like the HiFi fuses, and listening to the music, all the music.

Metro - Where anyone draws the line between superhuman and human is completely arbitrary.
Zip cord vs. expensive speaker cables superhuman?
NOS Tele vs. new production Electro Harmonix?
Budget amp vs. expensive amp?
mp3s vs. WAV?

You just happen to draw it beneath Hi Fi fuses (and brilliant pebbles in the other thread you started), some other guy draws the line somewhere else. My coworker was telling me the other day I was nuts because I said an iTunes-purchased album I copied to CD sounded bad, and I was wasting my money because I ordered the CD.

2 things I've learned in this hobby:
1. There is enough snake oil in Hi Fi to make your head spin
2. There is way more that goes into what we hear than we know in 2011. We are just scratching the surface.

My guess is that I would not hear a Hi Fi fuse in my system, and that probably nobody can in any system. It appears that it's your guess as well, but a guess it is.
FWIW - If it were me I would swap out the fuses with my eyes closed and see if I could REALLY tell, but not everyone's like me.

Sebrof: Again, the onus of proof lies with the person claiming to have extraordinary human abilities. If you “claim” that you can read minds, move objects telepathically, hover, see through walls, or any other abnormal levels of sensory abilities, then be prepared to have to prove it to the civilized world. That’s pretty much a world-wide stance regarding human feats of this nature. If you opt not to be subjected to testing, if not for scientific reasons alone, then don't expect anyone to take you seriously. I realize it's a tough reality.

Humans have been making all kinds of extraordinary claims and witnessings since man’s beginning, yet never seem to overwhelmingly pass verification methods beyond guessing percentages, or simply can't/won't produce factual evidence. You can wrangle any defensive angles you want, but outside the sanctuary of your audiophile world, I’m afraid you’ll have to back up your claims. :-)

10-10-11: Metro04
"Maybe you can provide a single documented event where ANY participant correctly picked the better “anything” 80% of the time?"

Can you provide a single documented event where the participants could not correctly pick the HI Fuse? Probably not.
You don't know they make no difference any more than the guy who sits and listens and trusts his ears and says they do.
IOW - You are both just guessing. But you are as sure as he is in what you believe, and you poke fun like you know something he doesn't.

Double extra super special attaboy amen Metro4 !!!

Jeff,

Your lack of seriousness makes you a far more worthy opponent than I have been on this forum. I took the bait and that's my bad. I, do, however, find it hard to resist defending good products made by good people. Questioning the veracity of a product is fair; ridiculing the people who make the product and those who use it is nasty. It's interesting to see that people who ridicule others and question other people's honesty don't want to be on the receiving end of the same treatment. Maybe there's a lesson there. I'm sure there's a far better way to make the point, but someone else will have to figure it out. With regard to the OP's question. I agree that it has been "asked and answered." The joy these fuses continue to bring me is one thing I wish for everyone....even Metro04.

The non-believers remind me of small kids. When my son was 4 years, he simply refused to eat broccoli. His friends did not eat broccoli and it influenced him. I suggested him to try a piece. He refused for several months. Then one fine day he decided to give it a shot. I will not say that broccoli is his favorite veggie, but he does not find it "yucky" and enjoys the stir-fried chicken-brocolli dish his mom makes.
I say guys, why not try and then decide? Why do you make opinions of stuff that you have not tried? I understand that there is 30-days trial period or something like that. But please let us know about your experience "after" you try them. Good luck!!

Awwwe, Lacee, and you were so entertaining right up until the last third of your posting. :(

"Ah, but "the ears can't be trusted!" or some such drivel I am sure will spring forth from the deniers, and then they'll try to disprove what you have just heard with YOUR own ears(not theirs)."

>>> Really, "drivel" and “nonsensical rhetoric”? Apparently, only the self-proclaimed golden-eared audiophile eludes what is WELL KNOWN and DOCUMENTED in the medical world! Yet if tested by ANY means, yields no better results than a guessing percentage. Maybe you can provide a single documented event where ANY participant correctly picked the better “anything” 80% of the time? None I've ever read, though folks here say the testing process is at fault, or has been rendered useless, yet similar or applicable tests are routinely performed world-wide throughout the medical, science, and engineering fields. I’m sure they’re all wrong in comparison to this niche audio hobby. :-)

10-09-11: Vhiner
"Metro04,You demanded measurements that explained Hifi Tuning's claims. It's been posted here. Why do you ignore the data and requests for your credentials?"

>>> And yet, AGAIN, you can only resort to manufacturing BS to compensate for lacked intelligence! Just where have I ignored HFTF's data? I don’t see a single reference in any of my postings alluding to your typically deluded incitements – EVER! It’s the same ol’ pattern each time you respond while conveniently ignoring provided examples of real-world scientific/engineering practices. Are you completely inept at interpreting written statements at face value, thus resorting to continual postings of demented, conjured- up nonsense to suit you prevocational accusations? And AGAIN, where is the proof I’ve requested from you to support YOUR claims of hearing fuse improvements? Just more of your typical modus operandi to elude exposure?

Oh, and anytime you want to balls up and compare who’s more technically qualified, just let me know! I’m sure you’ll have a heart-warming story to share about how you successfully replaced your grandmother’s toaster plug without burning down the house, or the light bulb in your sister’s Easy Bake Oven. When you can design, build, and properly test audio, RF, and digital circuits from scratch (as minimum examples), or diagnose and repair just about any item of electronics, then I’ll have a trace of respect for your opinions. Lastly, when you can prove, without a doubt, that YOU can hear improved performance with your fuses, then I will apologize to HFTF for your alleged accusations of my slandering.

Regarding Jeff's other thread, or postings within any forum topic, so what? I'm proud of anyone with a questioning attitude regarding the audio world's equivalence to the sheer numbers of endless eye-witness flying saucer, Loch Ness monster, or Bigfoot sightings. His, and many others who post their thoughts, are periodically ridiculed by this predominantly established, self-fueled “religion”. He and others have every right to his or her opinions as the next person. This site is for everyone interested in various levels of audio, and primarily for buying/selling used gear. Are their opinions really any different than the endless claims of “unverified” product improvement gains spewed in these postings every day?

I have nothing more to say to Vhiner that hasn't already been said multiple times already, especially with regards to his predictable, irrational responses. It’s all yours, big guy!

"ever tried the tweak which I believe involves placing a nickel, dime, and a quarter (I think this is the right combo) on top of your speakers?"

There's been a lot written about this one, it is usually now referred to as the crossover tweak if memory serves.
The theory is that if you can get people comfortable setting small amounts of money on a speaker then you can eventually get some of them addicted to throwing large amounts at a stereo.

ps. Somebody tell Vhiner I'm not serious

Ok guys,back to your corners.

For the curious "I want the measurements to prove it types" I would ask that they just use a simple chunk of copper wire,such as Romex, and strip the ends to make them bare.
Then insert said copper fuse replacements in the place of the cheap stock speaker protection fuses.
I would not want to be responsible for any calamities if one were to bypass all fuses with copper replacements.
Because I have and got away unscatehed doesn't mean you will.

But,,, and a big but, if you are curious about what sonics a simple fuse can alter(notice I said alter and not indicated that the fuse has a sound of it's own per se),then by all means have a listen for yourself.
If you like the sound better with the DIY fuse replacement then you will have a strong indication about how a HiFi tuning fuse will make your system sound.
Again, folks with Magnepans have mostly done this already, if you haven't, try it, but remember you are on your own.Any stupid volume issues or all thumbs types ,you are on your own if calamity ensues, so becareful.

What you should hear is more clairity, less mush,and more dynamics, and more blah blah blah, stuff everyone always says you hear when you tweak your gear.

In truth isn't that what we are all after?
More of everything good from our systems?

If $40.00 is all it takes or zero dollars if you roll your own and say a couple of Hail Mary's, then why not just try it and prove to yourself once and for all?
Who needs a white paper or some audio nerd to tell you if something works or not.
Don't rely on anyone, but yourself.

Ah, but "the ears can't be trusted!" or some such drivel I am sure will spring forth from the deniers, and then they'll try to disprove what you have just heard with YOUR own ears(not theirs).

Just don't pay any attention to that nonsensical rhetoric.
It has nothing to do with music, or this hobby,because if we don't rely on our ears in this hobby, then we should not be involved in this hobby.

It's all about the MUSIC!.Not the specs.

And unless I am a weirder bird than I think I am, I use my ears and not my eyes when I play music in my system.

So, the next time one of the "crowd" chimes in with "show me the proof", tell them they can't believe everything they read.
Which is what my old man beat into my head.

Don't know, but it sure would be fun to see if they have any influence on the musicality of one's system. Just curious have you guys ever tried the tweak which I believe involves placing a nickel, dime, and a quarter (I think this is the right combo) on top of your speakers? Maybe someone knows the correct amount? I've heard this before and could of sworn it made a difference and cheap too!

"I can't wait to hear your reaction to these products. "

How do they sound:).

Wow, Metro04 and Jeff_Jones,
If you want to read about and go crazy over some audiophile tweaks that will really turn you inside out check out the Coconut Audio products. They are way crazier in concept and believability than audiophile fuses. I can't wait to hear your reaction to these products.

Check out Mr. Jones' other thread:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?htech&1318078909&openflup&2&4#2

Apparently, I'm not the only member who is perplexed by someone who has contempt for a hobby choosing to post on a website dedicated to it.

Metro04,

You demanded measurements that explained Hifi Tuning's claims. It's been posted here. Why do you ignore the data and requests for your credentials? Because you continue to imply that they are snake oil salesmen, you owe the inventors at HiFi Tuning an apology. This isn't about you or me. It's about unqualified people like you slandering the good products of others, which you've never even tried or measured, by the way. If someone did this to something you made, you might begin to understand how wrong it is.

09-20-11: Vhiner
"Jeff, If you're not an audiophile, why do you hang out here? This is an audiophile website."

09-22-11: Vhiner
"Have you ever noticed how the "this can't work" crowd never talk about actually trying the products they denigrate? It really is unbelievably boring and pointless."

It's only after these two early Vhiner postings that I took an offensive position against his remarks. I responded with factual considerations, yet all he's done, and continues to do, down to his latest posting, is avoid providing ANY proof that HE heard or can hear differences regarding boutique fuses since he has the testicular fortitude to take such an elitist stance over others points of views with his dominating "big man on campus" endless/provoking postings?. Instead, continues to post endless off topic distractions, diversionary antics, and adolescent manipulation of posted quotings, yet has the audacity to expect responses to his delusional provocations for further avoidance. It's all there in black and white, yet he has the gall to call me cowardly? I've been telling him, essentially, to quote his grandpa, to "Put up or shut up!" all along. The perpetuated bickering is the result of responding to his diversionary prevocational attacks and ramblings! He refuses to address that the onus of proof lies with the person(s) making the claims, as I have sighted many times, and how it is done in almost every field of study. Again, all this can be followed in my previous postings, as with all my responses, yet are continually dodged by Vhiner.

This is classic evasive behavior, on several levels, and textbook phsycology-101. Who's the coward?

Jeff_jones,

Thanks. Makes sense now.

Nonoise

I'll quit if you will, Jeff. ;-)

Metro04, funny you should bring up Starbucks. Just this morning my wife wife was telling me how she had gone into Starbucks a couple of days ago to buy her bean and favorite banana-nut muffin. The young man behind the counter absolutely refused to sell her the muffin because they had lost the card showing the muffin's calorie count. I don't known if you known this, but in NYC vendors such as Starbucks are now required by law to display the calorie count of their food offerings. How sad and pathetic that it has come to this.

If you don't understand the connection (mine, anyway) to the subject being discussed in this thread, then there really is no hope for you and Vhiner to understand each other. IMO, if you were to try and understand, I think you just might find that is more to the enjoyment of music than you may have thought was possible. In the meantime, the bickering is getting really old

Nonoise - Thanks for the link. For what it is worth I'd write the Cliff notes version as 'our tests show that we have lower resistance and less vibration and we think this makes our fuses sound better'.

Metro4 / Vhiner - Please keep up the good work:).

Metro04,

Oh, I *do* stand corrected; you are not a mere genius. You are a passive-aggressive genius without the balls to back up your bluster. You think that by writing the words "I'm not saying HiFi Tuning's data is false or embellished" that this gives you cover for the implication in the same post that it's merely a marketing ploy. Only someone who thinks he's a genuine genius would think he could hide behind that thin piece of gauze. In addition to being passive aggressive, your position in this thread is also cowardly. You won't post your credentials, you won't listen to the product in question and you're too lazy to perform a measurement experiment to back up your.....beliefs? I thought you said beliefs weren't admissible here.

You may be a genius Metro04, but, as my grandpa once remarked about a similar fellow, "You're all hat and no cattle." Put up or shut up.

All of my previous accusations stand corrected, regarding Vhiner's blatant twisted misinterpretations of my, and others, posted comments. It's become obvious, at this juncture, that it's his inept reading skills that are at fault. I defer you to the contents of my previous posting's last paragraph to contradict yet another of Vhiner's full cranial jelletization episodes. I trust that a second attempt to re-read its content will expose his repeating deficiencies. And, without a doubt, believes everything he reads as gospel regarding audio.

Again, if you can't keep up, take notes!

Congratulations, Metro04. After attempting unsuccessfully to assassinate a hard-working, reputable inventor's credibility, you now spit on the evidence you perpetually demand. You really are the exceptional intellect you portray yourself to be. Would it be too strenuous for you (before it's time for another nap) to go into depth about how the measurements provided here are so clearly bogus? I can hardly wait to be dazzled by your technical rebuttal to the measurements posted here on this thread. You are, after all, fully qualified to judge the results, are you not? It'd be nice to hear about those qualifications as well since you're the only one here claiming to be "technically" qualified. You are questioning the folks at HiFi Tuning. Wouldn't it be good idea to establish for everyone here what your extensive credentials are? Just to set the record straight, if it's not too much to bother.