Between the options you listed, PS Audio M 700 Mono Blocks without a second thought. They are a huge leap! You won’t miss absolutely anything from any amp class and wonder why you never heard such sound before. The improved stage, separation, dynamic range and voicing will amaze you. I have a pair, as well as many others from PS Audio.
As far as Schitt is concerned, stay far away. They are in a much lower league and full of issues! That's like comparing apples and oranges. I'll save you the details but will say that I have been there done that. By the way, you can get the PS Audio for much less $ than what you said brand new. Send me a PM for info on how, if you want.
I can't comment on the Buckeye amps because I never had them but doubt that they will be anything even close to the M700s.
|
@thriftyaudio here is a 180 for ya, if you are open to other ideas. Since you have the SPL crossover now, have you considered trying the matching SPL Elector analog preamplifier instead of your NAD preamplifier?
My thinking is there is more to be heard from your PA7 and Acoustat 1+1s. Having owned Nak amps before, also noting a local colleague had a PA7 at his shop last month for refresh and a few upgrades. Still a relevant amp, imo. btw, I've had RA subs and the exact same DAC you have now, along with a cousin PASS / Stasis amp to yours, in my secondary system setup. Fwiw, I recently tested different tube and matching solid state preamps with mine. You might be surprised trying other preamps with yours.
|
@ellajeanelle thank you for your thoughts. PS Audio sounds like a decent upgrade for me. I am also interested in their Stellar Gold pre-amp. Have you used the Tyr mono blocks, or is your concern with other items in their portfolio. I found the Bifrost 2/64 compared favorably with more expensive DACs. That is my only experience with their equipment though. I was not impressed with the Schitt pre-amp reviews.
@decooney funny you should mention the Elector. It is on my short list for pre-amps along with the PS Audio Stellar Gold. I will think about it. My Crossover came from London (a real hassle, but worth it in the end). I believe HiFi Heaven stocks the Elector here in the states. I purchased my turntable and cartridge from them. They are great.
|
@thriftyaudio if interested, I can ask my local contact who worked at Threshold for Pass what his charge is to update your PA-7, or what he did on the last one I saw there recently. Im really enjoying the upgrades on my other Pass Forte amp fwiw.
Last two times I was there he had 3-4 Stasis amps there as I recall, plus a PA-7. Gotta ship to NorCal though. Super packing and double box and not cheap to ship but he gets amps from all over b/c people want to keep them in play.
i
|
thriftyaudio OP
In response to your question and If I may give you my advice, don’t fall into the trap of taking reviews, comparisons and hype as fact. Specs can give you a reference but definitely don’t rely on them to tell you how musical any component is going to sound. I think you’ve already answered your own question regarding Shiit. I will say that the 3 components that I did try from them were their so-called top of their line and all 3 had issues and got sent back, after I had to deal with what seemed like endless back and forth arguments spanning several days with one of the worst customer services that I have ever experienced. You are comparing apples to oranges. My analogy between Schiit and Ps Audio is like comparing Ford to Mercedes.
I haven’t listened to the Stellar Gold yet, but do have the Stellar Gain Cell DAC/ preamp combo connected to the M700s and that sound is what I briefly described to you. I am sure that the Gold preamp won't disappoint you, but you aren’t going to get the full performance of it with your current Schiit DAC.
I jumped from the Stellar to their BHK series. I bought the BHK components before the Stellar gold came out. The Gold was released recently. If you are leaning toward the M700’s with the Stellar Gold preamp I’d plan on a new DAC also, but if I was in your shoes with your current assumed budget, I would get the M700s new and a used Stellar gain cell DAC/ preamp. Unfortunately, the Gain Cell DACs are sold out new. They will not disappoint, and you have 30 days no questions asked refunds. You do pay the return shipping though.
|
@decooney thanks for the offer. My unit was refurbished two years ago.
|
@decooney thanks for the offer. My unit was refurbished two years ago.
Well that’s great, and hopefully you can find a good path for next steps. Admittedly, I was a little hyper-focused on trying different preamps having heard your model amp and speakers (both) at different times, and some understanding of how can they can sound given a great source, DAC, preamp, cables, room etc. Best of Luck on whatever you decide.
|
Get the M700s.
I've got the M1200s. Best sounding amps I've owned.
Clarity, soundstage, imaging, timbres, top-to-bottom cohesiveness.
Effortless power.
|
Check out Van Alstine mono or stereo amps. My friend uses the 2 channel SET 500 with his Harbeth speakers and it sounds real nice!
|
@ellajeanelle @decooney I have decided to explore upgrading the pre-amp first. Too many people have said the PA-7AII may be the strong point in the system and that the NAD may be the weak link. I am focusing on the SPL Elector and the PS Audio Stellar Gold. Others may get in the mix, but for now these are my focus. Thank to both of you for your suggestions.
|
@thriftyaudio given your existing investments so far, I like your plan for yourself on next steps. Since you indicated having just refreshed your PA-7 amp, go for it. Can’t think of a good reason not to try it with either unit you’ve narrowed it down to so far.
Fwiw, I normally run tube pre & mono amps on my main system. Late last year I picked up an older Pass/Forte amp, had it refreshed and upgraded. I’ve been listening to it swapping back and forth since. Channeling your own PA7 lineage that is. I like it well enough to keep it in play, and the tube gear has been sitting idle on the side. And as you know, some of this decision making also has to do with your speakers, but I can share without a doubt, a good preamplifier can really help the amplifier and your speakers to perform differently, hopefully better when you find a nice match and synergy.
As you may be aware, Darren Myers designed that Stellar Gold preamp before he left PS Audio to go join in at Parasound. I was eyeballing the internals and design on that unit, seems kind of like a unique and different design for PSA, lots of "other stuff", regulators, and discrete amplification stages fed by a big transformer in that unit. It might be worth a call over there to PSA to ask them what kind of serious demo they’d let you do, for 30-45 days, ensuring its a "good match" for you and your PA7 before committing to follow through on keeping it. Demo required imo!
Interested in hearing what they do for you. Would be nice to see PSA put their money where their mouth is on this one for you, if you decide to demo it. Best of Luck on whatever you decide.
|
decooney thriftyaudio OP PSA gives you 30 days in home trials- no questions asked. Even longer if you request. I’ve bought many products from them...
thriftaudio: They also take trade ins. They will discount up to ??% of the price of your purchase if you trade in that NAD! Sometimes more if you have a history with them or under certain circumstances. For best results, don't buy online. Call and speak to one of their sales reps.
|
I have the NAK PA-7A MKII with the CA-7A pre. Both fully refurbished 2 years ago also.
Fact is it's a tough combination to beat no matter what your budget is.
|
"Fact is it's a tough combination to beat no matter what your budget is."
Reading back over this. Another thought along the same lines of thinking...
Yep, levarage the existing amp as-is, keep it for a few more years, at least. Having owned the BF 2/64 myself, its an ok DAC for the money - yet more to be gained with a 1 or 2 level up dac for sure if you are looking for more lush velvet and musical sound. Some dacs are "overly precise", too analytical for me, or imo.
A really good DAC, nice Digi Coax cable, nice output interconnects to the PA-7 II, and you'll hear the existing amp and Acoustats in a new way. Demo 3-4 more dacs first. Try this for a while, might be pleasantly surprised.
Then, after this is set up well, IF the new-amp-itch is still there for a set of "monos", start demoing (buy/return/keep) and comparing decent monos to see who can dethrone the recently refreshed PA-7 II. Would not be suprised if it holds its own.
|
@decooney
We seem to have similar taste.
I am picking up a used Benchmark LA4 preamp this weekend. I leveraged the purchase to also pick up a pair of PS Audio M700 power amps used. I suspect the LA4 will be my long-term preamp, but I will do some a/b testing with the NAD just to comfirm. I have some interested parties in the NAD so it will be easy to sell.
I will also do some a/b testing with the M700s with both preamps just because the equipment will be here. I expect I will leverage them into something else, but if I love them then I will leverage the Nak into something else.
My streamer/DAC journey was a mess. I started out with a Cambridge CXN v2. The sound was just OK and the app was not user friendly. Never could get it to work consistently. I returned it to the dealer and tried the Node N130. The app was a little better and the sound was about the same. I upgraded the N130 with a PD Creative SMPSU in a LPSU interface. The sound improved dramatically. Really loved it. While this was happening I ordered an Eversolo DMP A6 based on all the great reviews. By the time it arrived the upgraded Node was working great. I was going to return it, but decided to go ahead and do an a/b test. Turns out the streamer portion of the Eversolo worked better than than the Node. Additionally, the app was amazing (still is). The DAC portion was a bit shrilly, but it had very good stage and instrument separation relative to the Node. I kept the DMP A6 and moved the Node to a secondary system. The Node is still very good.
I listened to a friends Lumin D2 and liked it, but didn't love it. The sound was great but the app was not as user friendly as the Eversolo. It was also too expensive for me at the time. My friend suggested the Bifrost 2/64. He had one on his 2nd system and said the DAC was the equivalent of the D2. I listened in his system and liked it so I ordered one. I was prepared to return it if I was not blown away in my system. I was. It was a huge improvement over the DMP A6.
So, what did you try in terms of DACs and where did you end up? Did you try the Schiit Yggdrasil LIM or MIL? Any suggestions for the future? Did your try different streamers too?
|
@thriftyaudio I see so you’ve partly been down the dac merry-go-round. I ended up leveraging a bunch of friends and colleagues to narrow down my lists a bit more. You or others might prefer something different in terms of DACs, I was following along with folks at Schiit for while, and almost went down the Yggy path, yet had some insight to go a different way, and was trying to stay a way from a huge dac footprint, and a few I compared with that owned Yggy had downsized to BF 2/64. Dont get me wrong that dac has decent deail, separation, just not the velvet and musicality I was looking for. (note: I’ve had modded MHDT Labs tube tube dacs before as well). Note Schiit Yggy, probably a little smoother yes, yet maybe a different sound from BF 2/64. For streamers, nothing special, an older/updated Arcam unit I won’t let go of, and have compared it to a few different Bluesound Node units through friends. I was looking for a particular result, and a certain magic for my modded Pass/Forte SS amp and my upgraded Quicksilver Mono 120 tube amps. This eventually came about through my Border Patrol SE-I dac with the upgraded power supply, specific phillips TDA1543 chip, and Jupiter caps that come with SE-I version. Its the only dac I’ve never modified or needed to. The Tube is not in the signal path, which I like for my needs - its part of the power supply circuit and you can turn the tube on/off for different sounds too. Gary Dews built it for me and super happy pairing it with my particular pre/amp system setup. It responds well to different cables, and now my digital woes are over. Have not looked back since. Some people try it and rotate it too fast without letting it fully settle in. After 45 days of solid play time, it opened up more, and it bested my other dacs in a nice way. Let me say its a "preference" thing, and does what I want and need for my system.
I do believe so much of this is system/speaker dependent and finding a good match for your current and demo amps in the way of the right dac for you can be a game changer. It was for me. 👍
|
@thriftyaudio How did the LA4 and the M700 work out together. I am thinking of raising funds for a headphone and replacing my Sanders Magtech for a M700 to use with my HPA4 preamp. This seems like something that may work. It is for a Magnepan Mini office system, so some compromise is OK.
BTW - I have the Yggi+ OG and the Yggi+ LIM. I love the OG and would buy another in a second if I could find one. The LIM is OK with a brighter system, but it is rolled off on top. That does not work in my new setup so I am in the queue to convert the LIM to a MIB. I may even sell the LIM and see if I can get a used Yggi+ OG. I have not heard the MIB but a review and some comments indicate it is closer to the OG and not the LIM.
|
@yyzsantabarbara thanks for asking. The Benchmark LA4 worked out great. The PS Audio M700 mono amps not so much. The Acoustat 1+1 speakers get down to 0.5 Ohm at high frequency. The M700s had a screeching sound at 85db and above indicating a hard clipping. I sold them and tried a pair of Schiit Tyr mono blocks. They had a hard clip and actually shut down at the same point in the music. Quickly returned them to Schiit.
In the mean time I had sold the Nak, so I had to put my old NAD 2700 in. The NAD has a soft clipping feature so I monitored it with the same music passage. It actually flickered at the same passage and if I listened closely there was a bit of muffling. The soft clip NAD marketed way back when actually worked. I just never noticed because the Acoustats rarely draw 0.5 Ohm (I think it only occurrs with a signal above 17k).
I reached out to Nelson Pass and asked if there were any plans for a dual mono XA25 in the future. He had a pair custom built for himself, but none were planned for release. He said the XA25 would handle the 0.5 Ohm signal without a hitch, but that high volume might be an issue if I drove the speakers very loud. On his recommendation I purchased one and it is amazing.
I then decided to upgrade the PS Audio Direct Stream Mk1 DAC. I noticed better detail from friends systems. I tried several including a Chord Dave with an M-Scaler, a HiFi Rose M130, and I borrowed a Tambaqui. I ended up with a Bricasti M1S2 DAC which is amazing in detail and sound (multiple filter choices depending on music type). A benefit I did not expect was it sent a ’louder’ signal to the LA4 which passes the increase along to the XA25. Hi volume is not longer an issue. I am very happy.
I am just starting to explore other pre-amp options, but I am not certain that I will be able to find a suitable upgrade to the LA4. For now I am definitely enjoying the music.
|
@thriftyaudio Thanks for the response. I now remember reading your take on the m700 in another thread (late night reading yesterday). I think I am going to take a chance on the m700 since my office Magnepan Mini does not drop as low as your speakers.
With regards to your LA4. It is a keeper. I had the LA4 and the HPA4 (2x) and it is not something I will replace. I have 2 systems, and I bought the Holo Audio Serene preamp instead of a LA4 since I had the HPA4 and wanted to try out something else. It is an excellent preamp too and sounds and measures like the LA4. It is just a bit warmer and a lot of people like that over the LA4. In retrospect I should have gotten the LA4. First world problems.
If you want to go for an even more powerful XA25, I am going to be selling my CODA #16 amp in a week or 2 along with my Audience FrontRow speaker cables I use with it. I need to raise funds for a headphone and new speaker. I think we are both in Southern California if you want to have a listen.
How did the Schiit Tyr mono blocks sound when they did work on your speakers. I am thinking of getting a used pair to hold me off until I raise fund for the CODA #16's replacement or just do not use the speaker connected to the #16 until I get a proper replacement. The new speaker (second speaker I will keep) will work with 8 watts.
|
@yyzsantabarbara The M700 did a great job of separating the channels. Very good stage left to right. The Tyr improved the stage L-R slightly and also had a boost in the high bass (over 80 hz). I felt the Tyr didn't quite handle the treble as well as the M700, but the hard clipping might be influencing my judgement there. Both sets of mono blocks were good.
I am set with the XA25 until a mono block version is released. I tested a CODA #8 and was not impressed. I was comparing it to the Schitt Tyr at the time. The #16 was out of my price range so I did not consider it.
I also took a look at the Coda 07.x but liked the LA4 better. Mostly due to the quiet sound floor on the LA4. There was just a slight sound out of the speakers with the 07.x with the volume turned up, but nothing playing. The LA4 was dead quite.
Have you looked at the following pre-amps relative to the LA4?
- Pass Labs XP 22 or 32
- Luxman C 900 U
- Bricasti M20
- Townshend Allegri Reference Mk2
Thanks
|
@thriftyaudio I also owned the CODA #8, and it is not as good as the #16, but the #8 was pretty good to my ears, just not reference level. The CODA 07x is too noisy for my LA4 + Serene perspective. Once I heard the hiss I could not unhear it even in louder passages. My brain would focus on that and annoy me to no end, so I sold it. I sold my HPA4 to buy the 07x and that was a mistake. I repurchased the HPA4.
The only preamp I heard on your list was the C900u. It was too warm for my tastes. I heard it with the Luxman m900u which I loved. I was planning on getting a m900u to use with the LA4 or HPA4 but got the more powerful CODA #16 instead. The new Luxman M10x sounds more like my #16.
For me, the LA4 + HPA4 is exactly what I want in a preamp. That is add nothing to the sound. I have my sources and amps for the coloring.
A friend of mine in Ventura, CA is building an open baffle speaker that I recently heard and loved. He ran it with Class D on the bass and an 8-watt headphone amp for the top. It was incredible. I expect to listen to this speaker in the Livingroom a lot and will park my Yamaha NS5000 after I will sell my #16. I need a low-cost amp for the NS5000 and the Schitt Tyr or maybe the new Schitt Wotan came into my mind. The PS Audio M700 thoughts were for my office Magnepan Mini, if I sold my Sanders Magtech amp, to raise even more funds.
|
