Unequal Speaker Cable Lengths - a solution from Cerious Technologies
For as long as I can remember my systems have been on an opposite wall from my speakers. This has led to many problems, the least of which is how to deal with the excess cable from one leg/run. It also runs the cable cost up since I've needed pairs approaching 17 ft for my last system. My latest system requires 13 ft to the farthest speaker. After considering many of the leading cables I was leaning towards the new
Audience AU24 SX. A four meter pair would have cost me around $4000.
So what are the options? As always, if I go with the matched pair I'll have to coil the excess and find a way to support it off the floor as I'm a great believer in acrylic cable risers. If I find a company to make me a pair of unmatched lengths, is there a difference in sound, imaging, balance, etc.? You will find many parties on both sides of this argument.
I've got one foot over the line - to the side that believes speaker cables should be equal length.
Thankfully, many companies are willing to make unequal pairs and then re-terminate the long one at a later date for a price. This solves the re-sell issue and Audience is in the group that will do this. That still doesn't solve the sonic differences of unequal pairs if they exist. I've also always thought that a coiled speaker cable could potentially act as a RFI/EMI attracting antenna. If so, is there also a downside to equal length pairs used in this configuration? I suppose that depends on the length of the excess.
That brings me to a solution that I found due to the many posts on Audiogon regarding Cerious Technologies. After reading the glowing reviews about their speaker cables, I sent an email to Bob Grost from Cerious regarding these questions. Here is his response:
"We make "matched"
pairs of speaker cables in different lengths (we are currently making a set that
are 6 foot/15 foot...). What sets us apart is that we do not run our wire off
of a spool. No matter what wire you use a different length of 6 ft/15 ft
will sound different and screw up the imaging. We use an 8 foot length as a
reference and build conductors to a specific length that perform exactly like
the reference. So...a 15 foot long conductor of GE SC will be 1.75 times the
effective gauge as an 8 foot conductor. Your case of a 8 ft/13 ft set will
image dead center on vocals unlike standard wire based conductors. A
set of GE SC in 8 ft/13 ft lengths would be $799 set."
My first thought was $799? - what a steal considering their reputation, the technology, and the competition. Then, and most importantly, unequal doesn't have to mean unmatched. I placed the order and received the cables a few weeks ago. I now have 50+ hours on them and they have surpassed my expectations both in build/finish quality and performance. They also image dead-center as Bob promised. These are very musical cables that have tons of inner detail and don't break the bank!
When it comes time to sell, I don't have the enormous investment in these that I couldn't find a buyer for a good price as is. I would have lost far more than $799 re-selling most of the cables I was considering.
There is no way an 8 ft/13 ft lengths would cause a shift in image. Your cable guy is full of it. Of course your image is dead center. My $50 Belden wire of unequal lengths produces the exact same result.
Correct, no issue at all with cables of different lengths. None. Zero. I have a nine footer and 18 footer. No issues at all and my system sounds great. Perfect center image. Speaker placement makes a difference, not cable length differences.
For those unfamiliar, the signal travels at light speed, not the speed of sound. You know, like all good photons. 💥 💥 💥 And electrons, well, they don’t hardly move at all. 🐌 🐌 🐌
Most cable parameters and cable effects are proportional to length. That includes resistance, inductance, capacitance, the resistance rise at high frequencies caused by skin effect, the effects of dielectric absorption, and propagation delay. (Although aside from some situations involving digital signals differences in propagation delay are completely inconsequential in cables of reasonable length, given that the signal propagates at near light speed as Geoff points out).
Therefore it is possible that having unequal lengths could have sonic consequences in some applications, although an image shift does not seem likely to be one of them. However, **even if** a difference resulted, IMO it does not necessarily mean that the equal length condition would be better. It could just as conceivably be worse.
Is it better to (a)have the two cables of equal length, so that their
sonic effects are similar, or (b)to have one of the cables shorter, so
that its sonic effects are reduced?
Either outcome seems possible in any given system, as I see it, if in fact there is any difference at all.
There are many reasons why imaging could be thrown off including (and most likely) room acoustics. But also any one or combination of the following: out of phase/inverted polarity conditions, errors in cabling continuity, other system errors, and other suspects that might be perceived as a little too far out of left field or produce adverse reactions - including but not (rpt not) limited to - cable directionality and other hot button topics. Let’s keep things cordial. 😄
Careful experimentation may or may not (rpt not) find the reason or reasons why the soundstage is not perfectly centered, organized and transparent. One person’s perfect soundstage is another person’s bog standard soundstage. Everything is relative.
CT are varying the gauge of the wire presumably so the resistance of a longer cable matches that of a shorter cable. Low Resistance is probably the most important factor in a speaker cable (given signals at near light speed). It is kind of the same logic I would use for a long run of speaker cable - I would consider to use lower gauge (thicker wire) for runs in excess of 15 feet and especially for 4 ohm speakers (note many 8 ohm specified speakers are actually 4 ohm).
That said we are probably talking much less than 0.5% volume difference between 15 and 6 foot - less than 0.03 dB! Not much and I doubt people are able to position their ears/head to this degree of volume level accuracy anyway (always closer to one speaker or the other)
Coiled wire - not coiled cable. Individual straight wire already has inductance. Coiling just increases amount of it. Coiling speaker cable increases inductance for common mode but not for differential signals. For differential signals inductance is close to zero. Pretty much the same as coiling power cable - won't affect power delivery but will reduce injected common mode noise (it is also known as common mode choke).
Now that things have settled down a little I thought I'd
jump back in to clarify my original post. I've always thought that one of the joys of this hobby was to share our findings about products, music, and
tweeks with fellow audiophiles. Although I said a few posts back that "I knew this would create a
stir" - that was not my intention.
As a rule I'm a common sense guy but, I'm also an audiophile. Sometimes the
two worlds don't align. I've heard many tweeks that make no sense improve my
system substantially. Yes, in some of cases I don't understand the
science but I hope it wouldn't stop me from sharing the experience.
I said in the original post that I leaned towards the argument for equal length
cables. This is a just my common sense approach as I don't totally understand
the exact reasoning for either argument.
That's really not the point of my post. It
was to create an awareness of Cerious
Technologies willingness to approach things in a different manner.
Bob Grost knows far more about this subject than I. He feels the need to adjust
the long wire to match the shorter reference. He has his reasons and does so
with no up-charge! His cables are some of the best sounding wires I have owned
to date and they are 1/4 to 1/5th the cost of all that I've owned. Based on
many reviews here and what I hear, he could charge much, much more.
I've been in this hobby since 1970 and I find it refreshing that while so many
products have gone to stratospheric pricing there is someone like Bob. Whether
you agree with his opinion on cable length or not, he's on the forefront of
Graphene technology in audio cables and he's doing it for a song. No, rotarius,
he ain't "my guy" nor "full of it". I respect Bob for
his advancements to the hobby and desire to do the best for his customers.
He is full of it if he told you length difference of a few feet cause an image shift. That's a lie so he does not deserve the praise you are heaping upon him.
rotarius Any manufacturer selling audio cables at those prices is BS Agreed, but certainly not as bad as people selling pebbles in a glass jar as an audio tweak!
Sit on it and rotarius. I’m bad. I’m super bad. Better get your mommy!
Rotarius - maybe we should debate whether your $50 Belden is better than 11 cent/ft Radio Shack speaker wire. Seriously though, if you feel that a $349 interconnect is what you call b.s, you probably are in the wrong forums
Rotarius - maybe we should debate whether your $50 Belden is better than 11 cent/ft Radio Shack speaker wire. Seriously though, if you feel that a $349 interconnect is what you call b.s, you probably are in the wrong forums
Maybe I am in the wrong forum or maybe I know where these guys get the copper and at what price. What you really need now is one of those clever little clocks from geoffkait to complement your high tech cables.
AFAIK, Graphene was invented as a remedy againts rheumatism and psoriasis. Oh wait, that was snake oil. My bad.
Graphene is 200 times stronger than steel, conducts well in temperatures close to absolute zero and can be used as zero gap semiconductor - all the qualities that are important in audio cables.
Seriously, whatever it is - the only thing that counts is, that they sound good to you. It doesn't even matter if it is real or placebo effect - the outcome is still the same.
"Graphene is 200 times stronger than steel, conducts well in temperatures close to absolute zero and can be used as zero gap semiconductor - all the qualities that are important in audio cables."
>>>Your Google might be broken. Graphene is an excellent shield against RFI/EMI. A quality that actually is important for audio cables and audio fuses.
Graphene as used in audio cables as like.. powder sprinkled on them between the conductor and insulator.. probably isn't a good shield.. they don't really explain how it's used though.. I'd welcome any new info on how it's used but I'm skeptical!
Everything makes a difference. But then, does having a haircut mean you have lost weight? My audiophile brain hurts at the thought of uneven lengths but my rational brain says the difference in resistance and capacitance must be negligible and inaudible.
kijanki Shielded audio fuses? That has to sound wonderful - even term "Shielded Audio Fuse" sounds wonderful.
>>>>Whoa! What? Hey, someone got left off the distribution list for the Synergistic Black Fuse memo. You know, the one with Graphene. You don’t think Graphene is used for the tiny wire conductor, do you?
note to self: it's a fine line one walks on forums, not too snarky, not too preachy. 😀
I myself have always preferred my audio gear sitting to my right side which, of course requires unequallengths of speaker wires. Then I discovered Jenna Lab's 18 gage hook up wires which worked very well t the time. Then about seven years ago I aquired a then one foot pair of the top of the line Shunyata speaker wires. I hooked the Shunyata wired to my speakers and the 18 age Jenna Lab's hook up wires between my Rega Orisis integrated amplifier and the one foot Shunyata speaker wires. It worked. Very well in fact. Now skipping to two years ago I had changed the Shubyata one foot speaker wires for the present one foot pair of the top of the lind MG Audio Design speker wires. By that time I had also added another Jenna Lab's 18ngage speaker wires to the equation-that is two wires per channel instead of jut one. Eight in total instead of only four. Later I added a third Jenna Lab hook up wire to the equation. The result' are beyond belief. Actually it is as if the Jenna Lab's 18 gage hook up wires allow the one foot MG Audio Design wires to shine thru totally. As if the little Jenna Lab wires to dissapear in the sound equation. OK, I learned about MG Audio Design wires from Arnie Nudell and Paul McGowan. That is what they both use on their own audio systems. Jenna Labs is another small wire manufacture. Well Jennifer used to design VAC tube gear and John Curl is a very good friend of Jennifer and her husband and have actually been working on preamps for years. Oh yes, on my audio system I an using six 17 foot runs on my left speker and six 10 foot runs on my right side. And the total cost for an average 14.5 foot pair of speaker wires comes to about $1800 total. There is the factor that the MG Audio Design wires are silver and the Jenna Lab's are copper. But they work. In conclusion, this is quite possibly the best cost verses performance speaker wire possible today. But that just statement by itself does not begin to ddiscribe how awsome they truly are. I have no financial interest or ulterior motives whatsoever. I am just tell anyone interested my results.
Tgun5, I'm totally embarrassed by the heavy-handed responses of some of my fellow forum members! It is one thing to say 'My experience has been different' or 'I disagree'; but I would never tell someone that they wasted $800 so flatly without even having heard their system. Every owner's manual I've ever read recommends equal cable lengths, so it is certainly not unreasonable for you to address this issue.
Personally, I am in the camp that believes there is always a better way to spend $800 on my system than on cables; but that doesn't mean I have to assuage my doubts by implying that others are foolish. I've never tried a pair of $700 cables; so I don't know. I've also given up factoring inductance and capacitance into decisions on any cables (except my phono cables. I'm not totally cured yet) because, in the end my listening experience never proved that stuff to be predictive of better SQ.
All I know is that the better the components of a true high quality audio system that the more importance the quality of the wire and power conditioning becomes. And each and every part of a quality audio system is equally important to the overall experience. Thus if I symply replaced my two Audioquest NRG10 power cords I currently have connected to my Martin/Logan speakers with free power cords offered by the manufacture thar rhere is a definite loss of low level audio reproduction. That I have them plugged into an Audioquest Niagara 1000 power strip, which itself is connected with an Audioquest NRG 100 power cord into the wall also makes an obviously overall improvement. The same things when one adds truly exceptional interconnects or speaker wires to the equation. Once one's audio system is up to a certain level of excllence, they do not have to be Michael Fremer, let alone have he level of personal audio system to understand whatI am saying. My only concern personally is o find out certain reasonably priced super buys, such as MG Audio Design interconnects to realize my dreams.
Bob, is a good man and the Cerious Technologies Graphene Extreme speaker cables are still the best bang for the buck hands down. At least in my humble opinion. Bob also made me an internal wiring harness for my DIY speakers. Now I have the Cerious Graphene speaker cables from the amp to the actual speaker themselves. ozzy
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