Tweeter Capacitor Upgrade (Coincident PREs)

With bypass I noticed that vocals, saxophones and acoustic guitars sound not as smooth and tonaly reach as it was without bypass. It seems it cause a deep in lover mid range.

This can certainly be a symptom of what I'm describing. The amp used matters a lot, so this will be worse with tube gear.

You can measure ESR with Dayton DATS or a home grown jig using Room EQ Wizard. It can help you compensate accordingly.

https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/impedancemeasurement.html

So if you are bypassing old caps, measure the ESR, and then ensure that in parallel, your new caps don’t cut that more than 0.2 Ohms or so.

You can use something like the free XSim crossover simulator to examine the impedance plot and add the appropriate resistance with the bypass cap.

@d2girls Unfortunately I haven't had the chance to be around too many high end systems that might compete with the Coincident PREs (previous speakers were Thiel 1.6s, 2.4s, and Coicident Super Eclipse IIIs). 

As they should be, the PREs are in a different league from those other speakers.  It's been a real learning experience getting these set up, even coming from another Coincident system (I amplified the SEIIIs with their Franks).  It probably took me 6 months to really dial them in.  I had to replace my speaker cables, my 300bs & rectifier tubes, add new power cables, grounding wires, replace a "harsh" power strip, consolidate all my gear down onto one dedicated line, and am now adding new capacitors to the head units.  I've also tried four different amplifiers (the Franks, Atma-sphere M60s, the Pass XA25, and Lyngdorf TDAI 3400).   

At various points I've had almost no bass, harsh irritating high frequencies, and muddy imaging. Gradually, however, it's become clear that none of those problems were because of the speakers... just some other part of my system that had to be brought up.  Having persevered through all that I do think I'm committed to the speakers.  Obviously they're brutally revealing, but can also sound really warm and gentle once everything is setup correctly.  As I said, the process of getting them setup has been incredibly educational.  

That said, I believe your concerns about dealing with the company is also a real issue.  My speakers were damaged in shipping and so I had to interact a lot during the repair process.  I could go on and on, but do expect to be charged a premium fee for any parts or repairs.  And if there is ever any problems or conflict, do not expect Coincident to do anything to "make it right."      

And to go back to the thread... regarding the capacitors, I did decide to remove the Duelund bypass caps (.01uF AG) last night. They seemed to improve the tonality of the Clarity cap (a bit "richer" high frequencies), but I was also hearing some smearing that was irritating me.  I haven't done the full A/B, but I do think that removing them cleared things up a bit.  Curious to hear the Jupiters next week.

Hey Cal,

Did you try 0.1uF Audyn True Copper?

I feel 0.01uF is way to little. I've had 4x that and had no effect at all, also Duelund silvers.

I suggest you try the Audyn's because the value is right (0.1uF) and relatively cheap ($20  / each) 
If you hear no useful improvement, and you are on the border, then I'd give up on anything else.

I  meant:

4uF is the border for Clarity CMR. Above that, bypassing helps, below that it does not. 
4.7 uF ..... is right close. So it's worth trying but in the end you may find it's not worth it.

Hi @cal3713 ,

Did you give break-in to Duelund bypass?
They need more then 100 hours. 

I feel 0.01uF is way to little

I have Multicap RTX bypasses (~1%) on my Clarity CSAs. On well-recorded music this sounds fantastic. Excellent transients with resolution and transparency for days. But poorly recorded music can sound "cool", even thin, most notably on vocals. I’m wondering if a double bypass or different bypass cap might add a bit more flesh or hint of warmth. The Jupiter copper foil at 0.01 uF caught my interest but your post has me second guessing. Two questions:
a) do you think a different bypass or double bypass would result in the sound I seek?
b) if yes, more likely to get a good result with Jupiter double bypass at 0.01 uF or Audyn TC Max at ~1%.

@alexberger  Yeah, everything's got about 150-200 on it.  

I'm open to bypassing, but do wonder whether I will always hear some smearing.  There's just that one capacitor between the amps and my accutons... introducing two paths of different lengths seems like it might always reduce coherence.  

@erik_squires Thanks for the suggestion on the Audyns Erik.  Depending on how the Jupiters work out, I may give them a shot.  My only hesitation is that I didn't have the problem of hearing "nothing" upon adding the lower value bypass... (see above comment)

Hi @cal3713 ,

I use Duelund bypass Cu-Sn in my HF crossover - bypassing 3.9uF Duelund RS and in the output of my phonostage -  bypassing 1uF Jupiter Cu.
And before Duelund RS I used Duelund bypass Cu-Sn bypassing vintage oil 4uF capacitor in HF crossover .
I all 3 cases I don't hear any dividing of sound by parts so typical for capacitors bypassing. In addition to that, most of LP records and CDs sound very pleasant and musical. Even some records that didn't sound  pleasant before bypassing!

Regards,
Alex.

@brownsfan  etc.  Finally got the Jupiters into my system this week (after burning in for 100-150 hours).  They were so big that I had to run a wire from the tweeter out of the rear port on the PRE's head units and fashion an external crossover, but wow do they sound great.  

It's a travesty that these speakers ship with solen caps at their list price.  I'd say this is a mandatory upgrade for any other owners.  

I also tried the Duelund bypass caps on the Jupiters and again thought it caused some phasiness and mild distortion.  So I'm with @grannyring that they should stay out of the speaker crossovers.

Thanks for all the recommendations.  It's nice to see that the top vote getter was also a great choice.

Again, for any other PRE owners out there, this is really a huge leap forward in performance.

Hey @Cal3713
Glad to hear you are so happy. :)

Listen, can you tell me what your experience is comparing the Clarity with the Jupiters?

Best,

E

@cal3713,  I am happy you have found the Jupiters to your liking, and I agree completely with your comment regarding the manufacturer's choice of Solens for the PREs.   I know even the PREs are made to a price point, but I know in my case with the Super Victory IIs, those Jupiters were transformative. That cap really moved the speaker to an entirely different level of performance.   I expected you would find that also to be true with your Accutrons, but one never knows for sure.  It is always an experimental question in the end.  Keep us posted as you continue the burn in process. 

@erik_squires I remember reading on humblehifi that the clarity cap was neutral and "ruler flat". I thought that was pretty descriptive. It was clean, but I lost some warmth and color compared to the original solens. The Jupiters brought that back in spades while also adding better imaging. 

@brownsfan And yes, the PREs are made to that tough to hit $30k (recent price increase) mark. Crazy that they can't spend an extra $500 in parts to make the speakers sound their best. Even crazier that there's a $20 cap in there. Just mind bottling.

clarity cap was neutral and "ruler flat". I thought that was pretty descriptive. It was clean, but I lost some warmth and color compared to the original solens. The Jupiters brought that back in spades while also adding better imaging.

Nice! Now I'm back to wondering about replacing my RTX bypasses with Jupiter - lol.

@cal3713
Thanks!

Color is what I thought the Audyn TC bypass caps added. :) I haven't noticed better imaging, but now I have a new amp so maybe I should do that experiment again?

I need about a total of 13 or 14uF in tweeter caps per speaker, so around $1,400 total. Not something I can afford for a while.

Best,

E

@beetlemania  You should note that I did pair Duelund bypass caps (Ag .01uF) with the clarity caps in my PREs and didn't like what they did to the sound.  They added a little color, but also added some distortion and phasiness.  I also tried adding them to the Jupiters, but found no added benefit and again thought I heard the negatives.  Just pulled them out after listening to one song. 

Note that my main caps are 4.7uF, so perhaps that bypass is too small to induce the positive changes that Erik has heard...

@cal3713 ,  I think we are aligned with respect to our thinking on crossover parts selection in the Coincident Speaker family.  I just don't get it.   To pair the superb Accutron with a piece of junk in a 30K speaker to save $500 seams just weird.   I can understand it in a mid-tier speaker, because after all, one needs to ensure a performance differential between one's mid level speaker and one's top tier cost no object offering.   But putting Solens in the PRE, especially in a marketing scenario that eliminates the middleman, is a decision that is hard to understand. 

Ihave found the latest Jensen Copper foil paper in oil Copper body to be excellent verydetailed but a bit more saturation very goodwith SS gear .
Jupiter Copper are very good , they are both very good but different 

 I just don't get it.   To pair the superb Accutron with a piece of junk in a 30K speaker to save $500 seams just weird.

As I have written elsewhere, the economics are down to driver cost x 10 = retail pricing (approximately) for a lot of high end makers. More if they make their own drivers.


That's what people see, that's what they evaluate on, and most high-end shoppers really can't hear a difference. That's how you end up with mediocre caps with expensive drivers.   B&W and Magico tend to do a better job of climbing up the crsossover quality ladder along with the drivers and speaker costs, but they are kind of rare.


This is also a place where a DIYer can build something with superb crossover components and drivers and come out way ahead of commercial offerings. Not always.

Then there are bargain brands, like Wharferdale, which can be superbly improved with the right cap upgrade.


Having your own ears and not letting yourself be fooled by prices helps.

Hi @cal3713,

I did experiment, I compared sound of my speakers with only Duelund RS 3.9uF in HF crossover and  Duelund RS 3.9uF bypassed by Duelund Cu-Sn 0.01uF.
9 month time ago when I put  Duelund RS to my crossover it hadn't passed break-in and Duelund improved the sound a lot.
Now results were different.
Without bypass sound of instruments has better focus and a little bit cleaner.
On other hand with bypass tone is more savory and vivid. In comparison Duelund RS without bypass sound more lean.
In general, I like sound of my speakers with bypass more.
Yes, bypass has some drawbacks, but it is also depends from specific type of capacitors, system and listener. If money wasn't for me an issue I would use Duelund Cu-Sn 3.9uF  without bypass capacitor.

Regards,
Alex.