I have found both solid state and tube equipment to have their positive attributes and limitations. I really enjoy both. The problem is that at the price level that I am willing to come out of pocket for equipment, I have found that it took me years to get to where I am currently at equipment and sound reproduction wise. I have auditioned some solid state equipment that were absolutely excellent imaging, soundstaging, dynamics, etc. I have also auditioned some solid state equipment that left me seriously questioning the designers ability and sanity. Same is true for my experience with tube equipment. So, here we go. most opinions are typically biased because they are starting off at a different listening, enjoyment level than others and they also have a totally different price point whereby they can audition or purchase equipment. So, as I have mentioned many times, not only is it correct to compare equipment "apples to apples" based on price point, but it is also correct to recognize that some people have inherent biases that they don't want to change. Sound quality, music types, equipment types (tube or solid state), cd vs analog, democrat or republican, etc. You can go to equipment shows or auditions and can't get people to even agree on the types of music to demo the equipment on. I understand that people may have preferences. What I don't understand is that some aren't willing to agree that the other side may have a correct view also. I learned years ago that there may be more than one right answer. Just because it doesn't agree with mine doesn't make it any less correct than mine. But I will tell you this. Life is good and all things considering, I'm enjoying the ride. Good and not so good. I enjoy the back and forth, as long as insults aren't part of it. And, (yes I started a sentence with and), Although I currently use two Mark Levinson 23.5 amps, which in my opinion are still better than many much higher priced amps today, I would take the Audio Research REF 250 amps in a heart beat. If I could justify the expense. They are some of the best amps (tube or solid state) I have heard.
Sorry for the long post.
enjoy |
I recall D-140F's in my DIY 4530 "scoop" cabinets were easily driven with my Marantz 8B. Driving them with the new (at the time) Cerwin-Vega 1800-A solid state was bordering on hideous, as was the SVT head. |
I may have mentioned this before, but we used 2 (music store lent to us) 2000S amps with the "jumbo" JBL loaded 2X15 Sunn cabs (weird, larger cabinet, but no argument from us!), and our own 200S with the standard cab when we opened for Led Zepellin in 1969. That's a lot of Sunn on stage, even back then. John Paul Jones asked if he could use the bass rig for the Zep set and we said, "hell yeah ya limey bastard" or something like that. Zep proceeded to erase our set from the collective memory. |
Wolf, When I finally found a correct original matching cabinet, the version with the single Cerwin Vega 18', and you are correct in that the other option was a dual 15" JBL D140F cab, the speaker was blown!!
The 18" is 4 ohm and 2-15" is 8 ohm. The amp has an output tap for each.
The full stack would have one of each cabinet!! |
well... I think that cost is a major factor here. If amp/preamp are valued at say 25-30K and above... then any differences between the SS and Tube is a difference between what the engineer's desired their gear to sound like (and not an inherent tube vs. SS thing). That is, in the high dollar no trade-off region, SS vs. tube is moot. If the amp/preamp are together valued at say 5-6K --- within the trade off region... it will be an issue of which trade offs work best given your equipment and listening desires... because, at that level, generally differences are connected to tube vs. SS. Still... room geometry/listening position, quality of input into the system and many other factors enter in too --- often to a greater degree than does the amplification. Any general one (tube or SS) is better than the other is not really a particularly useful or realistic position to hold. It is system-by-system and person-by-person dependent and... cost dependent too.
I have owned both and liked both. I am now using a tube preamp and SS amp. Tube amps, I have found at least, are too unreliable for me (way too many KT-88's died). But sonically... both can be great... both can be less than great. Both can be anywhere in between.
|
10-21-13: Wolf_garcia writes: Metralla...I was being ironic...or sarcastic...or something...Since when did people start taking this stuff so literally? Is this an Aussie thing? I know, and my comment was in the same spirit. I was amused by Melbguy1's cricket reference. Carry on. Regards, |
Metralla...I was being ironic...or sarcastic...or something...Since when did people start taking this stuff so literally? Is this an Aussie thing? Also, it is difficult for me to get by the fact that Isochronism has a Sunn 2000s, and that it's only 120 watts...I thought the 200s was 100 watts, and the 2000s was much more...now I have to look this up. I looked it up, and yeah 120 to 150 watts...200s only 60 watts! With the 2X15 cab (a classic and the best in its day) it seemed like more juice due to efficiency I suppose. Off topic, but I can't help it. |
To me, differences of opinions are respected... and expected. I do accept some agreement and even common sense and experienced knowledge.
But lets keep it interesting :) |
Well said, Jeff (Jwm). I would add that besides the reaction of your friend being immature, it also reflects a lack of understanding of the fact that the sonic performance of the specific digital cable in the system in which he heard it may have been completely different than its performance in your system, due to differing interactions between its own technical characteristics and the technical characteristics of the components it was connecting. Even for a given cable type and a given system, differences in the length of a digital cable can result in completely different sonic effects, for reasons that are easily explainable. Those interested can read this paper by A'gon member Audioengr (Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio). Undoubtedly in many arguments about the sonic performance of audio components and cables those on both sides of the argument are correct, in the sense that they are accurately reporting what they heard. But what is often lacking on both sides is an understanding of the interactions and system dependencies that are involved. Interactions between amplifier output impedance and speaker impedance vs. frequency characteristics, for example, amplifier output impedance of course being very different between most tube amps and most solid state amps. Best regards, -- Al |
This fight is so childish. Audio should be fun and a source of discovery. If we don't agree with each other so be it. We should not act like little kids. This reminds me of a friend of mind that loved to talk about his equipment and always wanted reassurance from everyone about how good his stuff was. One day he called and I told him I was using a certain digital cable between dac and transport. He heard this cable a year ago and did not like it. When I told him what I was using he became so upset that he hung up on me. Wow a child indeed. I don't need to have a friendship with someone who can not discuss and disagree like adults without losing it. Lighten up this is just a hobby. |
10-20-13: Wolf_garcia writes: If you have to ask if my opening statement was ironic, I have to assume you're maybe Dutch. I assumed that with a name 'Melbguy1' he was from Melbourne, reinforced by his 'so i'll let you "mirthless" comment go through to the keeper.' Definitely Aussie. Regards, |
Davide256,
" there is no right or wrong here" is of course true and I feel
those participating on this thread would agree. People stating their
preference for tube amplifiers isn't a condemnation of SS amps, this seems
so evident to me. How many times does one have to acknowledge that it's
merely personal taste and preference? I don't understand the heightened
sensitivity and why SS owners feel their choice is questioned. David that's
a general comment and not directed at you.
Everything Frogman said concerning tube amps could come unchanged
from my mouth word for word. If this thread had been dominated with more
'pro' SS owners I'd have no problem with that at all, I just know what is a
better fit for me. Im certain that SS amp owners clearly outnumber the tube
amp crowd, so obviously many people are quite satisfied with the sound of
transistor amps.
Tubegroover I've posted numerous times about music topics (profound
jazz adoration but getting more into some classical also).
Frogman (a musician) has written many excellent and introspective
comments of various music genres and I always enjoy and learn something
by reading them. He may love jazz as much as I do (smile) but his
advantge, he can also play it (wish I could). Well at least I can partake in the
live jazz venues where I live and I do frequently. That has trained my ears
substantially over the years (having a piano in our home is also a plus).
Charles, |
there is no right or wrong here. Life is full of compromises unless you are embarrassingly rich.. you just have to understand within what you can afford to spend what your compromises are. I have heard the Modwright integrated amp (SS)with the Modwright Oppo 105 (tube mod)... that's a $9k solution that seemed a good starting point for a tube and SS compromise with speakers of your choice. |
Melbguy1 your statement in regards to Wolf's tube preference: "your example of most guitar amps being tubed is not relevant as they are not required to carry large amounts of current"
My Sunn 2000S Bass amp does not agree with your statement. Although VERY "conservatively" rated at 120 Watts, it is gluttonous (!!) and the more clean unobstructed current the better as observed over many years of testing in real life situations. |
Hey, where is the talk about musical preferences in this discussion? It's always fascinating to me when discussing gear there is no reference to me, the most important part of the equation. Would a person that is passionate about Beethoven, Mahler, Bruckner or large scale music choose an SET amplifier? Or conversely would a mainly jazz lover choose a SS Boulder, Burmeister, amp? There are so many variables that haven't been touch on concerning aspects of music presentation, tastes and listening preferences aside from the points raised, all valid and important. Typical of most of these threads, there is little to draw from and little to gain for the casual observer other than a battle of wills and passion, I love that part.
Melbguy1, Frogman made a particularly illuminating point. Although you're arguments are articulate in showing a degree of intelligence and experience, they are less than pursuasive and are clearly defensive. Is this about music reproduction, or is it argument for argument sake? My question to you is what is your EXPERIENCE with tube pre and amplifiers and what are you trying to achieve in your system, in other words what are your priorities? I would ask the same of your antagonists but I don't need to, they have expressed them on other threads but they might want to chime in, I think for the purpose of the discussion it is very important. Please don't take this as demeaning your choices, it is definitely not meant to be. For one, I really like the attributes of both technologies but am trying to gain a greater understanding of why you are so adamently in favor of SS. I personally have found some tube gear that has the absolute attributes of SS while retaining the attributes of tube gear. I personally haven't found this with SS although it very may well exist. Not all tube and SS gear is created equally, there are too many variables. I recently had a friend that sold off his well regarded tube gear in favor of SS. His reason? Tired of the maintenance of tubes. How is it working out? Time will tell but I will say he gained some things and lost others. Me being a tube guy, everything in front of the speakers have tubes, he will have time to reflect on what he lost and what he gained, he currently has NO tubes in his system. I've already got it figured out, maybe he does too but is just not ready to admit it.
To me, and for the record I love all variety of music and want to hear as accurately as possible what is ON the recording, the devil is most definitely in the subtle details and that is the most damningly difficult part of this hobby. To me it isn't about tube vs. SS it is about connecting to the musical message regardless of what technology is preferred.
As far as 3D imaging is concerned TUBES at the lowest end of the price spectrum and the highest are to my ears more convincing to answer the question. |
Something that isn't discussed nearly as often as the tonal qualities of good tube amps is the way that tube amps handle dynamics; particularly micro-dynamics. While I can't claim to have owned any of the very top ss amps, I have owned several very decent ones (Levinson, Classe, BEL, PS Audio), and have heard some of the uber-highend models in others' systems. To my ears, the tube amps that I have owned (Berning, Audio Research, my current Manley's, and even a rusty old Dynaco) exibit a certain sophistication in the way they reproduce dynamics. There is less of the "stepped" sensation that I hear from ss oftentimes. I hear a seamlessness when going from soft to medium soft or from very loud to loud (for example) that let's the expressive aspects of a musical performance sound more realistic. There is more of a sense of the music being alive. |
Michaelkingdom,
You have the right approach, just continue to listen to a variety of amps. If
SS suits you better, go for it. There's definitely no right or wrong with either
type of amplifier.
Mel, your response is bewildering to me. I don't understand the persecution
complex and the defensiveness, come on we're just discussing audio. It
shouldn't have to be so emotional and serious to get you this upset. I
sincerely appreciate your comments and different opinions.
Charles, |
It's good that Mirthless Mel is taking a break from this forum before the wheels come off of what's left of his rational mind. If you have to ask if my opening statement was ironic, I have to assume you're maybe Dutch.
I'm not a proponent of anything in particular, I merely respond to what I know is bullshit, or when people agree with me, as I am clearly weak and need support...my guitar amps, especially a recently acquired 18 watt class A one, are EXTREMELY high current. And chicks dig it. Otherwise I suggest re-reading my posts to see the truth and calmly displayed well reasoned personl opinions I've garnered from years of being an unsophisticated charlatan. |
I became sarcastic only after being incited because of my stated preference toward SS gear in a thread heavily defended by tube guys. People know they can push my buttons and incite this kind of reaction in me our of sheer frustration, that's why they push. I'm over the passive aggressive behavior in this thread and other threads and being painted as the aggressor. This is going to stay with me a long time, and it will be a very long time before I post again in this forum. |
Well, thank you for the overwhelming amount of information. I did not mean to start a controversial discussion but I suppose that is inevitable when the topic of tubes versus Solid state comes up. What I have gathered from the discussion is that the overwhelming sentiment feels that tubes provide equal or better imaging, spatial cues and dimensionality than solid state. It appears that my first job will be to explore rolling these smaller tubes.
In all but a few cases I was comparing integrated amplifiers of the tube and solid-state variety although in one case I was using a set of solid-state monos. My impression of low level listening is that tubes provide the most information but as volume increases I find that solid-state is more expressive. To draw a comparison from the video world, I would say that tubes are like a glorious standard definition Blockbuster displayed on a CRT screen where as solid state comes across as a much crisper 1080 Blu-ray film. In my experience solid-state amplifiers have the tendency to grab and hold my attention for longer than tubes do. I think this is because I visually listen to the music and am constantly trying to figure out where a guitarist is standing, how close the singer is to the microphone, how many microphones were used for the drums, etc.
My experience seems to be the same as everyone else's on this thread except for the fact that I have my amplifier technologies reversed. Hopefully time will tell what the missing variable is. I have indeed optimized my speaker positioning in the room quite painstakingly. I have had quite a few speakers that are popular on this site, many of them being monitors or many monitors which are famous for pinpoint imaging. Dyn c1 sig, focal utopia be, harbeth shl5, maggie mmg, 1.6, 1.7, pas imagine b, bw 802n, bw 805n, bw 805d, usher tiny dancer, metlin tsm mmi, sf cremona auditor m, selah monitors...
With my solid-state electronics I truly feel like spoken voices are coming from a definite pinpoint in space. When using tubes on the same speakers I feel the image is more general and not as pinpoint. Also when using solid-state I hear something that is akin to a Hall effect that you might find on an A/V receiver which makes the room sound bigger. While I am not doing this via digital processing, this is one of the things that I would attribute to a three dimensional soundstage. Also using solid-state I feel that I can judge distances between instruments front to back, side to side better.
I will say though that it has happened that I have turned on my solid state gear in the morning and just recoiled at the way that it sounds. Something about my hearing early in the morning craves tubes. I hope it is a coincidence that I cannot hear very well in the morning and my hearing gets sharper throughout the day as I wake up.
I am surprised at the lack of support of solid-state in this thread. However, everyone gets a vote and the voices seem pretty unanimous so I will have to keep my ear is wide open for what I have not been hearing. |
Hi Melguy1,
I have no desire for this thread to become another "us vs them" scenario, there are many in the archives as it is . I have no interest in moderating comments either. Here's the deal, you find SS amplifiers better suited to your needs and objectives, who can argue with your choice?
I through my personal audio evolution have conclude that tube amplifiers are superior in providing what's most important to me.
We both have reached our own decisions based on what we have heard, it's really that simple. I haven't nor will I say anything negative or condescending about your choices, there's no reason to do so.
I don't know why you feel the need to make derogatory and dismissive comments about the people who have expressed a preference for tube amplifiers ("midf"i, you really think so?). You say guys like you with "serious gear" get talked down. Wht mkes your gear "serious" relative to other's systems here? Who's "talking you down? Your opinion is here to be read and responded to like all the rest of us.
Mel you're actually the one who has changed the tone of this thread and reacted defensively. Personally I respect your audio component choices and welcome your perspective. I hope you respect my audio choices even though they differ from your own.
Charles, |
BTW, I was totally sincere re Wolf; no sarcasm there at all. I always appreciate his wit. |
Frogman, for someone accusing me of being sarcastic, you did a pretty good Pearl Harbor job. |
I began to write a response to Melbguy1's admonition of Charles1d's
comments last night, but decided to not post it since I figured Charles1
could, as he well did, defend himself, I didn't want another discussion to
turn, once again, into bickering, and I wouldn't want Mel to think that I was
"playing cop". But, alas, the bean hasn't kicked in yet this
morning, and so against my better judgment....
Mel, I think the point you miss is that it was you who made the first move
towards inciting a flame thread. First, you speak of owning two tubed CD
players with which you did some tube rolling, and you mention the positive
attributes of tubes in general. Then, you seem to discover the
"joys" of ss; cool. But, and here is where you need to look a
little more closely at your own comments. Everyone up to that point had
expressed opinions without being sarcastic or negative about differing
views. Although, I admit I wasn't sure what to make (until later) of Wolf's
typically boundless and incisive wit :-). Here are some of your comments:
**** Audiophiles who buy SS amps which offer similarly
rich, holographic sound as the best tube gear without the maintenance
issues simply spend more time enjoying music and leading a balanced life.
****
****You're a one-eyed tube guy, cool. All I can say is enjoy your tube rolling
& i'll enjoy buying and listening to music.****
****my earlier comment was in response to what I saw as a ridiculously
biased comment which lacked objectivity****
****this forum is becoming more mid-fi and guys like me who have serious
gear get talked down by a lot of people who in many cases simply don't
know what they're talking about.****
Really? I would reconsider some of those assertions. And do you not see
how condescending they are?
BTW, speaking of knowing or not knowing what anyone is talking about. I
always find it interesting, when there is a clear "Mars/Venus"
situation in a discussion, to look at posters' posting history. I notice (as I
often do) that there is not a single post by you on the subject of Music. So,
what are YOU talking about? From the vantage point of this cop, if you
can't understand the connection, there really is no hope.
Oh, oh, the second cup is kicking in, I better hit the "Submit
now" tab before my better judgment takes over. |
Jwn, given the level of your system I expected you to exhibit more maturity than chiming in with the sole motivation of inciting a flame thread. And no I refuse to bite. |
Charles1dad I think Mel had a good idea if you become a moderator you can shut him down; the way he's flapping any time soon. |
JWM: >>>....that coloration you call in the midrange is not a coloration to me at all.....<<<
I agree actually, I'm always trying be "politically correct" as discussions like these generally go no where fast. example being that this thread already has a brewing "peeing" match.
Have a nice day everyone! Listen to some music, that would be my suggestion. :)
|
Snopro, yeah all i'm essentially saying is, for me there was life after tubes. I really didn't think i'd find an amp which had all the desirable qualities of a high end SS amp as well as valve amp, and yet be so beguiling and musical. I have owned and enjoyed some good valve gear including my current Aesthetix Romulus cdp. My philosophy is valves work best in a high end cdp or linestage where they're not stressed and can operate reliably with a SS power amp. I (personally) don't like using tube power amps. I've seen my friend's Cary mono blocks blow up spectacularly and have problems sourcing tubes. But you don't have to spend $27k to get really good tube-like sound from SS gear. Modwright is a great example of good value, reliable, beautifully built amps which combine the best of ss and tubes. Hence Dan Wright and I get along very well and have the same philosophy. At the OP's budget level, the KWI-200 integrated is an excellent high end value imho. |
Mel really nice integrated by the way. It must sound wonderful!
Joe |
Snopro, my earlier comment was in response to what I saw as a ridiculously biased comment which lacked objectivity by Wolf_Garcia, nothing to do with the OP's original comments. It's straight forward really, Charles took issue with me (and not for the first time I might add), and this time around he provoked that reaction from me. As I said, if Charles wants to become a moderator, he should nominate to be one or else leave it well alone. I respect his views, but how about seeing my point of view? The issue is, this forum is becoming more mid-fi and guys like me who have serious gear get talked down by a lot of people who in many cases simply don't know what they're talking about. |
Wolf, i'll take flack as good as I give it, so i'll let you "mirthless" comment go through to the keeper. But is your opening statement meant to be ironic? "All SS amps (other than hybrids) are 100% guaranteed to not use tubes. They excell at that." If not, i'd be concerned. Excellent low level detail is a product of an amplifier which has a very low noise floor and generally a high damping factor which helps to control the drivers more accurately and lower volumes. Your example of most guitar amps being tubed is not relevant as they are not required to produce large amounts of current. I dont' know what kind of SS amps you have owned, but I have owned a Classe Delta series integrated, Modwright KWA-150, Boulder 1060 and now Vitus SIA-025, so I think I know what i'm talking about. You're a one-eyed tube guy, cool. All I can say is enjoy your tube rolling & i'll enjoy buying and listening to music. |
Mel, I think you overreacted. How is Charles being a cop. He stated is his opinion, as has you. Charles has always given helpful advise and is an asset on this forum.
I have both types of amps and enjoy both. They each have advantages and disadvantages. They both have come a long way in sound. Good SS isn't thin, bright, and fatiguing. Good tube equipment isn't slow, colored, fuzzy, sounding. I like tubes a little better, put can & do enjoy both.
IMHO, tube rolling makes me save money in the long run. Otherwise, I would change equipment more often. Depending on my mood or music I can tailor the sound to my liking. |
All SS amps (other than hybrids) are 100% guaranteed to not use tubes. They excell at that. Good tube amps excell at "low level detail" and are quiet, or zillions of serious listeners wouldn't be using them. Does anybody really say, "I like tube amps SO much I'll put up with crappy, distorted no low level detail weak sound?" I've spent a lot more money over the years on SS hifi amps than tube amps (including reliability issues with some otherwise well regarded SS stuff), except guitar amps...tube guitar amps continue to bury attempts to market SS amps, although SS keeps trying to raise its little head up in that market (modeling amps, tiny practice amps, etc). Pretty much every professinal guitar player, except a few jazz dudes, use tube amps. I don't claim well designed SS hifi amps suck, that would be kind of lame...I own a few I like. I do enjoy modern tube amps more though, as the designers seem to have figured out how to get slam and power out of 'em and currently they give nothing up to SS in audio clarity. They didn't used to (really...they didn't), but they do now. For mirthless Melbguy1 I'll add that I DO enjoy spending money on tubes...there...I mentioned it...it's fun. |
Mel,
You obviously didn't read my post, that's exactly the sentiment I expressed,
if all about individual preference. I don't see how you could have read it any
otherway. There's no logical way it could be interpreted as anti SS
amplifiers. Reread if you don't mind. |
Charles, I think it's time to stop playing cop on this forum . If you want to be
a moderator, nominate to be one, otherwise leave members to participate
freely in this forum. If Wolf_garcia wants to express a view on SS vs Tube
amps, so too should I be free to express my view. |
Melbguy1,
The OP specifically made a comment and observation of tube vs SS amplifiers and people are simply responding just as you are doing. To me this isn't a battleground and your preference for a SS amplifier is understood and fine, that's why both types are available . What you hear and are drawn to is different from what attracts me. If you're as satisfied with your amp as I'm with mine, you have found pure contentment. If you honestly believe that the SS amps offer equally rich and holographic sound with better inner detail than tube amps we'll just very respectfully disagree.
Best Regards,
Charles, |
10-19-13: Charles1dad
Wolf,
Very funny post .... +1. On another note, I'd like to emphasize to everyone that the OP has referred to using speakers and amplifiers and/or integrated amplifiers that are each in the $1K to $5K price class. And he has asked a specific question about imaging. It seems to me that generalized debates about the merits of tubes vs. solid state are not on point. Regards, -- Al |
I find it amusing when tube guys bang on about how much "fun"
they have stuffing around checking tube hours and rolling tubes to get
better performance. Audiophiles who buy SS amps which offer similarly
rich, holographic sound as the best tube gear without the maintenance
issues simply spend more time enjoying music and leading a balanced life.
Then there is the fact high end SS amps generally have higher current,
lower noise (and therefore better low level detail) and can more easily
control a difficult speaker load. Also did you notice Wolf didn't comment on
how much fun it is charging his Visa card for the cost of his replacement
tubes? SS guys simply put that money toward their mortgage or next
holiday. |
Wolf,
Very funny post , tube's life like imaging can be a potential hazzard. Be careful and pay attention to those virtual exit signs. |
Tubes degenerate very slightly over time and there is no significant audible change until they wear out, conventional (or convenient) myths notwithstanding. Tubes are more fun, and tube amp owners are usually better looking people likely due to the fact that they are having more fun. The one exception is that tube amp owners may have singed fingers from trying to dust around their tubes when hot. Harmonic distortion content is the primary difference tonally between tube and SS amps (2nd order, 3rd order, lunch order), and note that SS amp advertising hype says "tube like" exactly 37 times more often than tube amp hype says "SS like." The biggest advantage of tubes is the ability to enjoy "tube rolling" as it is the rare SS amp owner that says, "Marge, I'm heading out to the transistor store to score a set of Mitsubishis for the Onkyo." My tube amp images so well I've actually gone through what I thought must be the Carnegie Hall exit only to fall into my hot tub. |
One point that I have found undeniable over the years is that a rather large majority of speaker designers use robust solid state amplification. The reason could be as simple as tubes begin to degenerate the moment they are turned on and by comparison, solid state is more stable or constant for comparative listening and measurement purposes.
Another area of the audio industry were the preferable stability of solid state is used predominantly is in recording and post production studios. It's my experience that heavy handed producers can suck the life out of a recording in post. The experienced producers actually create the sound stage you're comparing by using discreetly recorded tracks mixed to place their location. The depth of the stage can come from many combinations of reverberation, compression, and digital manipulation.
Regardless, our combination of room and components is what defines the stages end result. As always in this hobby everything matters and the exact same stuff won't sound the same in a different room.
To quote my favorite Bartender, "So, what's it gonna be today?"
|
I have owned two tube cd players including my previous modded Ayon CD-5s which I used as linestage paired with a Boulder 1060. I also rolled the factory tubes with NOS mil-spec tubes. Tubes certainly provide midrange lushness, sound holographic & are delicate with strings, female vocals, jazz etc. Properly isolated no doubt a good tube linestage can do all that. I must say how pleased I am however moving from tubes to my current Vitus SIA-025. I am hearing the same richness I enjoyed with the Ayon and with only about 30hrs on my amp, speakers & most of my cables & with my S5's temporarily sitting on carpet swabs (without any feet fitted), the soundstage is already impressive. Once my system reaches 500hrs & I put some Stillpoints under my speakers, I should have a better idea of the sound. But for me, there is life after tubes. |
Michaelkingdom
In my experience, SS always seems to image more sharply and offer the deepest, clearest field....
I am using an Octave V40se with Svetlana Winged C EL34s. The Gold Lions were reissues in a Cary SLI-80 signature. To the extent that it may be safe to generalize, given that there will inevitably be exceptions, my perception has been that the prevailing viewpoint among experienced audiophiles is that a particular strong point of tube amplification tends to be imaging and dimensionality. And that has certainly been my experience, and the experience of several of the others who have responded. We can only speculate as to why your experience has been the opposite. Perhaps the speakers you have used with the two tube integrateds are not ideal matches for tube amplification, as was suggested earlier. Also, the Octave amplifier is unusual in that it provides only a single output tap, which is ostensibly suited to a wide range of load impedances, but who knows what tradeoffs that might entail with any given speaker. Also, do you feel confident that your combination of speaker positioning, listening position, room configuration and acoustics, and the radiation patterns of the speakers you have used with the tube amps is conducive to good imaging? One speculative possibility that occurs to me is that if those factors in your particular setup are not conducive to sharp and well defined imaging, the reduction in dimensionality and image size that may occur with many solid state amps relative to many tube amps may be compensatory. Regards, -- Al |
Rayooo, that coloration you call in the midrange is not a coloration to me at all. I could say the same thing for the less color or lean character of the solid state amp and call that a coloration as well. The whole point is to portray the instruments as life like as possible and if that is a coloration then live instruments with their beautiful rich tone is a coloration as well. I don't know why a lot of people fight this very issue, perhaps they don't go to live classical concerts or to jazz clubs. Whatever the reason I'm glad you discovered tubes and all I can say is enjoy. |
**** I found well designed tube amplifiers to be as transparent, clear
and resolved as any transistor amp. The advantage I discovered with tubes
is a purity, natrualness and realism that the transistors couldn't equal.
Tubes have the tonal vibrancy and truthfulness that were closer(not
identical) to the real thing for me. With the many transistor amps I've heard
I was always keenly ware the sound is reproduced and a bit more artificial
("canned"). The tubes were more convincing of reality that I
consistently hear with live instruments and vocalists. **** - Charles1dad |
Hi Michaelkingdom,
Keep in mind that you may just simply prefer SS amplifiers as some others
do. Don't forget that the particular speaker in use plays a major role
regarding amplifier compatibility. My experiences are very different from
your own, I found well designed tube amplifiers to be as transparent, clear
and resolved as any transistor amp. The advantage I discovered with tubes
is a purity, natrualness and realism that the transistors couldn't equal.
Tubes have the tonal vibrancy and truthfulness that were closer(not
identical) to the real thing for me. With the many transistor amps I've heard
I was always keenly ware the sound is reproduced and a bit more artificial
("canned"). The tubes were more convincing of reality that I
consistently hear with live instruments and vocalists.
As with what Islandmandan said, the SET amps took the tube convincing
realism to an even higher level, I fully understand what Dan is presently
appreciating. The point is each of us will have differences in hearing
perspectives and interpretation. Some will relate to my personal listening
experiences and quite naturally others will not.
The suggestions given here to try various types of signal and power tubes
is wise advice. You can substantially change a amplifier's character and
sound by doing this.
If SS amplifiers continue to impress you more tht means you've found your
direction and that's the route for you.
Best of Luck, |
Having used Tube based preamp(s) for years, and in general having avoided like the plague the notion of Tube based power Amplifier(s), I got a bit of an awakening recently.
My reason for avoiding Tube based power amps are all the standard reasons, maintenance, heat etc.etc.
A perfect storm recently occurred in my life and for whatever reason I decided to replace my ss monoblocks with tube based monoblocks.
I was literally shocked at the difference! I would never have guessed that in 2013 there could be this much variation between great SS and great Tube electronics.
Different strokes and all, so I'm not even going to enter into any kind of tube/vs ss and which is "best". suffice it to say I strongly prefer the tubes. Others could and I'm sure would prefer the SS.
Personally, I see NO downside whatsoever to the tube amps. (other than of course heat, but my old SS amps were high-bias, and they threw a fair amount of heat also) Bass, imaging, focus, balance, depth are all as good or better in the tube amp. And, there is simply as one would expect FAR more what I call "harmonic richness" to the music. Call it euphoric coloration or whatever you want, the tube amp simply adds and/or extracts more meat on the bones of the music. Violin is a perfect example, it's a different instrument all of a sudden.
The added tube "lushness" would I thought always come at the expense of some level of detail. Not in this case, These are razor sharp, with no added harshness.
Just my own personal 2cents worth, I only wish I'd have done this years ago! |
LOL!, I was going to post, I agree with Davide256 post, I prefer the sound of both ss and tubes together!, solid state amp and tube pre-amp, or tube digital player with analog balanced volume control, the mix of solid state and tubes together may be exactly what you are looking for, It works very well for me, the best of both worlds!, however, I would not use a 6h30 tube based anything with high quality solid state amps, to me, the sound is to sterile and can be analitical, A good 12Au7, 12aux7 tube componet matched to a very good solid state amp sounds pretty good to me, very magical and real sounding to say the least to my ears, Happy listening. |
I suspect we all listen for different things. My experience has been that tubes and solid state do different things well at the lower end of price then struggle to converge at the higher end
Solid state has dynamics, biting detail, can rock the house
Tubes have mid range rectitude, vivid tone colors, can make you weep with the emotion of sung story.
To be honest image is the last thing I listen for; what good is a razor sharp spatial location if the instrument doesn't sound real for tone color, like its in the room with you. If that's right, image seems to follow at its heels |
What JMCgrogan2 sez, except in my experience some power tubes are more linear in tone than others. With those more 'linear' tubes, such as the GL KT88's or SED 6550's I would agree that small tubes can make a greater difference than the two power tubes would make on their own. But with the SED KT88s, which are not so linear, i.e. increased upper bass and extended highs, small tubes matching is essential, as is amp matching. I've used SED KT88s as well as SED 6550's, SED EL34's, and SED 6L6GC's for some years and while I really enjoy the KT88's when they work (as they do now in one of my amps) as often I've not been able to dial them in using other amps, especially those with a more modern design ('neutral' tone, such as ARCs etc). I know nothing about your amps but I didn't care for the KT88's at all in my Cary mono's, but found the 6550's quite acceptable.
If you want a crystal clear toned linear tube, if you can use it, you might find the SED 6L6GC to your liking. It lacks the power of the 6550/KT88 and the mid-range warmth of the EL34, but it has clarity in spades through out the FR.
BTW, what kind of speakers are you using? Do you feel you have maximized your set up opportunities so that they are positioned to sound their best. In a 'dark' sounding room I can imagine that a tubed amp/speaker combo might sound less energized and a SS amp sound better, especially if you speakers are voiced on the warm side of neutral. |
