Tubes vs Solid State - Imaging, Soundstaging, 3D

Wolf, c'mon man. For a guy who likes tube amps your are acting very solid state. Let it go.

**** I found well designed tube amplifiers to be as transparent, clear
and resolved as any transistor amp. The advantage I discovered with tubes
is a purity, natrualness and realism that the transistors couldn't equal.
Tubes have the tonal vibrancy and truthfulness that were closer(not
identical) to the real thing for me. With the many transistor amps I've heard
I was always keenly ware the sound is reproduced and a bit more artificial
("canned"). The tubes were more convincing of reality that I
consistently hear with live instruments and vocalists. **** - Charles1dad

I began to write a response to Melbguy1's admonition of Charles1d's
comments last night, but decided to not post it since I figured Charles1
could, as he well did, defend himself, I didn't want another discussion to
turn, once again, into bickering, and I wouldn't want Mel to think that I was
"playing cop". But, alas, the bean hasn't kicked in yet this
morning, and so against my better judgment....

Mel, I think the point you miss is that it was you who made the first move
towards inciting a flame thread. First, you speak of owning two tubed CD
players with which you did some tube rolling, and you mention the positive
attributes of tubes in general. Then, you seem to discover the
"joys" of ss; cool. But, and here is where you need to look a
little more closely at your own comments. Everyone up to that point had
expressed opinions without being sarcastic or negative about differing
views. Although, I admit I wasn't sure what to make (until later) of Wolf's
typically boundless and incisive wit :-). Here are some of your comments:

**** Audiophiles who buy SS amps which offer similarly
rich, holographic sound as the best tube gear without the maintenance
issues simply spend more time enjoying music and leading a balanced life.
****

****You're a one-eyed tube guy, cool. All I can say is enjoy your tube rolling
& i'll enjoy buying and listening to music.****

****my earlier comment was in response to what I saw as a ridiculously
biased comment which lacked objectivity****

****this forum is becoming more mid-fi and guys like me who have serious
gear get talked down by a lot of people who in many cases simply don't
know what they're talking about.****

Really? I would reconsider some of those assertions. And do you not see
how condescending they are?

BTW, speaking of knowing or not knowing what anyone is talking about. I
always find it interesting, when there is a clear "Mars/Venus"
situation in a discussion, to look at posters' posting history. I notice (as I
often do) that there is not a single post by you on the subject of Music. So,
what are YOU talking about? From the vantage point of this cop, if you
can't understand the connection, there really is no hope.

Oh, oh, the second cup is kicking in, I better hit the "Submit
now" tab before my better judgment takes over.

BTW, I was totally sincere re Wolf; no sarcasm there at all. I always appreciate his wit.

Something that isn't discussed nearly as often as the tonal qualities of good tube amps is the way that tube amps handle dynamics; particularly micro-dynamics. While I can't claim to have owned any of the very top ss amps, I have owned several very decent ones (Levinson, Classe, BEL, PS Audio), and have heard some of the uber-highend models in others' systems. To my ears, the tube amps that I have owned (Berning, Audio Research, my current Manley's, and even a rusty old Dynaco) exibit a certain sophistication in the way they reproduce dynamics. There is less of the "stepped" sensation that I hear from ss oftentimes. I hear a seamlessness when going from soft to medium soft or from very loud to loud (for example) that let's the expressive aspects of a musical performance sound more realistic. There is more of a sense of the music being alive.

I agree; maybe I'm a idiot too. While Almarg's (and others') comments about the importance of the amp/speaker interface as the determinant of how an amp will perform are very true, to my ears, just as with analog vs digital (PLEASE! I don't want to open THAT can of worms) there are certain intrinsic sonic traits about each technology that, yes, become less and less obvious as the quality level rises, but are alway there to varying degrees.

Excellent explanation by Ralph; precisely what I hear when comparing the two, and especially in comparison to live. I am always somewhat amused by the comments by some listeners about "black backgrounds" and "black spaces between instruments" in recorded sound. Those things may be appealing to some, but are not heard in live music. This is not a minor point. In much music, especially classical and most acoustic music, much care is taken by the performers to blend ( and, as instrumentalists like to say: "get inside each other's sound") as a means of "ensemble" expression or to honor the composer's intent. Most of that information exists (or existed) in the "black spaces and backgrounds"; IOW the information is lost.

Nice, thanks.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=omovUmbbAgo

****would this not be a plus for imaging as it allows sounds to be more readily located? Also, is this not an inherent quality of three dimensionality as the purpose of 3D is to stand out in relief to a background?****

Yes, if one considers that to be a good thing even though it is accomplished at the expense of other things.

****A rebel? Perhaps.A businessman first and foremost.****

You know, I just don't get why some people feel the need to get one of their useless little barbs in. Here we have a guy (Ralph) with the knowledge and talent to bring something meaningful to the discussion, and who is willing to take the time to help those of us who are only capable of scratching the surface of a complicated subject, and instead of showing some appreciation, cynicism has to be thrown in. I have no relation to Atmasphere and don't own any of their products, but I am grateful for his contributions to these dicussions. His comments make a lot of sense to me. Obviously, we dont always have to agree with any one person's viewpoint; but, when a guy is capable of designing equipment which consistently gets great reviews and commentary that focuses on how all of the "mumbo jumbo" actually relates to MUSIC and things other than the usual lame numbers game, I for one, am going to listen. If I misconstrued the comment, my apology. OK, I feel better now.