Tubes vs Solid State

Yea. Tubes are way cool. Especially the "BIG" ones, eh. Now that's gotta be some serious WAF appeal. Anybody out there with just 'little' tubes on their amps? I sometimes wonder if there is a phallic influence in owning one of those things. Anyone?

I love them both. Honestly for me it's all about the music. When I set out to buy a new amp (integrated in my case), I don't have my mind set on whether it's going to be a tube or solid state. Listening to my music determines that. I bought my Rogue Cronus because I thought it sounded great with my speakers. I just ordered a Hegel H200 today for the same reason. I will say that to me, the solid state Hegel sounds more musical and it should for twice the price regardless of the technology. The Rogue will stay with me because it does sound fantastic and yes, the tubes glow.

Ah Mapman if I misread your intent, which surprised me btw, just never you mind me!

Some tube amp makers not only show their tubes (gasp!), but have figured out how to make them glow in different colors!!! Like Jolida FX10, which is one sweet looking little amp, like a mini, affordable VAC Phi Beta, which is the Brooklyn Decker of tube integrateds IMHO. I am not likely to be able to afford either my favorite VAC integrated nor Brooklyn Decker in the near future though. I suppose the fake colored blue Jolida glow is a bit shameful though. Kinda like makeup for tubes.

This has me recalling one of my all time favorite posts on Audiogon. Member Viridian responds to the question of why it’s so important to some to have their tubes on display rather than protected inside:

Viridian:
"The phallic splendor. The blue stray electrons breaking free of their appointed paths. The red hot filaments beconing with their oh so subtle light, in a darkened room. The myriad reflections of light on glass and chrome. Who the hell knows? I paid for the damn things; I want to see them."

Have you ever been looking at your SS amp and thought, "I wonder what it would sound like if I tried different transistors in there", and then you ran out to buy a set of new transistors, you stick 'em in there, and listen. NO YOU HAVE NOT. Unless you're very handy with your gear...get it? I'm not so sure about the LED lit tubes...there is an ethicial issue with those (I have a little tube headphone amp with a silly red LED) although I'm not sure what that is...but I know it's there. I also set my Squeezebox on VU at night...it gives some life to the proceedings without any harm...kind of like my tube amp.

Wolf, I have actually done that. The covers on the amps I happen to be using at a given time always have the screws removed. It takes about a month to settle down a particular amp and get it's bias and it's offset optimized. After that it needs to be checked regularly. Contrary to popular belief, ss amps are by no means maintenance free. Once you've got it 'actually' running optimally, this whole thing about IM, TIM, brightness, etc. becomes moot. The key is channel balance within the amp. You either have it or you don't. When you do, that so-called brightness becomes attenuated, the amp becomes very linear sounding, and you have an actual dimensional sound stage. But I'm a vintage guy. Can't speak about class D or switch-mode amps.

Wolf. I had a neighbor once who was an EE professor, he told me you can't build a meter fast enough to show what an amps really doing.

Wolf- I have started to see people changing OP amps like tube rollers, and further people with the means often have their gear modded with different "better" capacitors and the like. It happens that tubes are easy to change in most circumstances. As you said tubes are more fun I agree, part of that fun has been rolling some of the best tubes ever made into my gear.

The meters on my Squeezebox tell the input level balance in an obvious visual format, and it might be possible to correlate this to amp output if I cared about that. I do understand there are some who tinker with SS amp innards, but for instant gratification fans tube rolling is hard to beat.

Schubert, you only need to care about what an amp is doing on average. So the meter doesn't have to be fast, just accurate. However, my position that you must do final adjustments while listening doesn't cease to be valid, for other reasons. But bridged monos are a whole other ball game. Here you have no choice but to rely on your instruments until you finally 'hit' it. I've tried using just right channels on both amps in stereo, matching them, and then matching left to right in each amp. That doesn't work because bias is thermally influenced and the unused left channel runs cool initially, influencing the overall temp of the amp differently than when it's being matched to it's respective right channel. These temperatures are critical and no two identical amps behave identically, just as no two identical channels of a stereo amp behave identically.

Csontos, I can't tell you how many people I've seen spend thousand on wire, carts etc to get rid of "harsh" high end on Symphonic music, when a 2 minute listen made it clear their amp was clipping.
IMHO , you can't have too much power on a speaker under 94db, if you never heard the clarity of more than enough you will take the average as adequate.

Schubert, testify!! Eliminate clipping first then tweak if needed. Its the only road to happiness.

Sorry, I was speaking on a different issue. Almarg has made it abundantly clear many times over that you simply can't have too much power, period. People are not aware just how taxing the music really is. I think Al may even be a bit conservative in his estimations regarding run of the mill compressed recordings.

Its true with most speakers you cannot have too much power. Think of it as your insurance policy against clipping. Do not leave yourself exposed.

You mean like the emperor?

I have a client who owns the 800D. He used the ML 33's. Wenn I listend to this amps I was surprised how poor the sound and stage depth and wide was. He was not happy with it. So he asked me what to do? I said try Pass labs. He tried it and he still owns it. He never was this happy with his set ever. All the ML demo's I heard in my life ( there were a lot) I never got thrilled. Why? Because there are always missing essential parts which should be there. I think a combi with Pass labs power amp with a tube pre amp is a good option for you as well!!

Bo1972,

"I think a combi with Pass labs power amp with a tube pre amp is a good option for you as well!!:

Agree with you on that. Been running a CJ tube pre (ART) into a Pass ss amp (XA100.5) into my Magnepan 3.6's for about 4 years now. No desire to try anything else and for reference, my other system is all tubed using an SET amp.

Also agree with the ML remarks. When I first heard the 33h's, they caught me but with further listening I felt something missing. I blamed that on what the SET did for my ears, something about the harmonics I think, but the Pass and tube pre combo works for me.

People with less knowledge about audio could buy Mark Lenvinson. Wenn you are in this business you know how average it is compared to competitors.

I'm not impressed with ML either. Too clinical, not enough decay or depth. Sounds like it's trying to be an Ampzilla. Very mediocre.

In the 15 years I am in this business I never heard a good demo of ML gear. I listen a lot of them. With my knowledge it is difficult to understand why people bought it. You can get easily superior stuff for the same price. Wenn you spend a lot of money on this you want at least a deep and wide stage. And a very natural sound. Even these parts they cannot give. To be unnest often the people who have it did not know there was stuff which is that better. On the other hand you are still responsible for the stuff you bought.

Early vintage Levinsons are probably better. Especially when brought up to date.

They are more musical, but this is only sound. The absolute sound in my world is a level which stands closer to the real thing. As it is in real. I learned at a friends concert room how direct and small in proportion voices and even instruments are in real. I thought they would be a lot bigger. I call this intimate sound. He ad a room for about 60 people. I was pulled like a magnet to the music. I have done a lot of research to get this doen by an audio system. I am a perfectionist and always looking for the best. Pass labs give a much wider and deeper stage compared to Mark Lenvinson. Even acoustic recordings you hear the difference of different acoustic guitars much easier compared to ML amps. The latest amps have a more musical sound of ML. But compared to Pass Labs you miss still the essential parts for the absolute sound. I understand that most people did not have possibilities like me to do hundreds of tests to understand it. But it is not so difficult to hear the difference. These days I learn people the difference between 2 and 3-dimensional sound. They all understand it very fast. Because I have a system what is easily to convince.

I have to vary slightly from the others. The ML 23.5 and 20.6 are still to this day, two of the very best amps I have heard. I have heard others from Mark Levinson after the company was sold and I wasn't greatly impressed. Howevedr, the two mentioned? Well...wonderful.

enjoy

Different cables: Audioquest Redwood 2013 bi-wire loudspeakercable. Pure silver for high/mid, pure copper for low freq. This cable gives the best blacks I have heard sofar by any loudspeakercable. It gives the intimate sound as I experienced as in real. I owned the Nordost Valhalla for 12 years. The Redwood is even better in speed and drive compared to the Valhalla. I use most Purist Audio power cables like the 2013 LE. Interconnects: Acapella xlr pure silver and Audioquest Sky pure silver. I have a Pass Labs X250.5 poweramp ( upgrade to 600.5 will be next amps)

No problem. I had the XP-20 for 2 years of time. These days I use A Onkyo PR-SC5509 with Audyssey Pro. And now comes the key factor. I do a lot Onkyo since 3 years. I have done many tests with Audyssey. Since one year I am also a pro installer. I am additced to music since I was 6. At that age I had my own Philips big tape recorder with tubes. I sarted early. I am in audio since 1998. I have worked for 8 years in audio speciality shops. But these days I do consulting in sound and vision. I love the freedom it gives. I have a photographic memory what makes audio a lot ebtter to understand. I can see 3-4 steps further than other people can in this business. I measure at total different places and hights compared to the Audyssey way. This is superior in dynamics, resolution and focus. There way is ok but not convincing. You loose too much dynamics. I have done a lot of tests to improve it. Audyssey is a lot more than solving acoustic problems. This is only 1/3 of the whole system. I use it from highend audio point of view. 6 months ago I was the absolute sound with my own system at a big audio show. To be unnest it was very easy to blow away the rest. Most distrinuters do not have the knowledge and only use the stuff they sell. What make the PR_SC with my measurement different? More dynamic and more speed. ( even compared to the XP-20 I had before) My stage is wider and deeper than the XP-20. My individual focus of instruments and voices is sharper. Cause of solving the acoustic problems of the room there is so much more music and authority. Without you normally will get a lot of issues. Even in the high freq. I have more information. Like I said before; words endings at ss, ttt and th had never been this open and clear. At the audio show I visited many other sets. Which were inferior in speed, depth, resolution, 3-dimensional focus, blacks etc. Shop owners came to me and saud: we never heard this level before. I use the Pl-200 from Monitor Audio and there PLW-15 sub. With my measurement I have the stealth integration of a sub I Always dreamed of. This sub is a lot better in speed and respons compared to Rel and Velodyne. I have a freq range now from 16hz till above 100.000 hz. And I can play at an extrme level without stress. ( pl-200 can play till about 118db spl)

There is no VS there both great if you spend big bucks!!