Czarivey, your insensitivity is only exceeded by your ignorance. |
All Class D amps I have heard are the opposite of irritating. Go listen and see which ones you find irritating or not. I've heard Bel Canto and Rowland mostly.
Atmasphere has cited certain Pass amps and others I recall that are not prone to irritating harmonics as well. He would know best probably. |
All Class D amps I have heard are the opposite of irritating. Go listen and see which ones you find irritating or not. I've heard Bel Canto and Rowland mostly.
Atmasphere has cited certain Pass amps and others I recall that are not prone to irritating harmonics as well. He would know best probably.
I also recently owned a pair of SS Tube Audio Design Hibachi amps that advertised little or no negative feedback and would also fit the bill I would say.
I owned a pair of Carver SS m4.0t amps for many years that performed much like a tube amp. Those were designed to demonstrate a SS amp that sounded identical to a specific tube amp.
I've heard many other musical not irritating SS amps as well. If bad harmonics = irritating then these did not have that affliction either, FWIW. |
A solid state amp that sounded identical to a tube amp? That's gold, Mapman, gold! Humor is the best medicine. ;-) |
Mapman, while there are some solid state amps that have less of the 7th harmonic that has become the hallmark of transistor amplification, there are none that are at the low level that tube amps often demonstrate, although I think there are a few that come close.
Class D is no exception, at least not with any of the amps I have heard and own. Their artifact does seem different than the traditional transistor type; so far it seems that no-one can make an amplifier that is truly neutral.
If you really want an amplifier that is as smooth as a tube amp you are going to have to get a tube amp (its the lack of the 7th harmonic that makes them smooth). If you want to avoid that 2nd harmonic that makes tubes so lush you have to avoid amplifiers that employ single-ended circuits. |
"A solid state amp that sounded identical to a tube amp? That's gold, Mapman, gold! Humor is the best medicine. ;-)"
Not to spoil your little chuckle, but that was Bob Carver who made the claim, not me. He's done a few things designing gear over the years but take it for what its worth.
I can only vouch for the fact that the amp was not irritating. Like most good quality amps, including tube amps, it sounded very good with the right speaker match. Harmonics did nt seem to be an issue. |
"If you really want an amplifier that is as smooth as a tube amp you are going to have to get a tube amp (its the lack of the 7th harmonic that makes them smooth)."
I suppose so. But having heard many amps of all kinds, including both tube and SS amps in what most would regard as "reference systems" I have found a tube amp is NOT what I want and I am happy with what I have. It provides hours on end of musical enjoyment. Irritation has been a problem in the past with some amps but is not an issue with the amps I use now, which are both Class D amps by Bel Canto. The TAD Hibachis were a hit for me as well.
There are many things that go into good sound. It either works or not. If i find it works well, i am not going to worry about individual theories about what's really going wrong. When it sounds wrong or irritating, I will do something about it, but it does not.
That's just my experience. FWIW. Not that I do not like the sound of a good tube amp, but having dabbled with tubes again in recent years, its all the rest that goes along with it that I still do not want.
I might feel differently if not for having found Class D to be a better option for me. |
Some 100 posts in and no one has really answered most of my questions, at least practically speaking for decision making. So I will ask again…
A practical question out of all of this is power tube choice in the same amp. Currently am running eight EL34's tubes in a primaluna HP integrated amp to Sonus Faber Olympica III speakers. The Sonus Fabers are 91db, 4 ohms, and recommended amplification of 50-300 watts.
Tube choices in the amp are as follows:
ULTRALINEAR MODE:
85 watts x 2 (KT120)
73 watts x 2 (KT88)
70 watts x 2 (EL34)
TRIODE MODE:
45 watts (KT120)
42 watts (KT88)
40 watts (EL34)
I know tubes have there own characteristics, but besides that, from a power standpoint, would it be better to go to KT120s to get more power to my speakers? Would the difference in wattage moving from EL34s to KT120s (15 watts increase in ultra linear, 5 watt increase in triode), be beneficial or even perceptible to my ears? Would this be better for the performance of the speaker, or at least the health of the speaker? |
Sorry I know nothing about what tubes will work best there. Others probably will. Cheers and good luck! |
Djfst, the differences in power which you cited all amount to less than 1 db, in most cases much less than 1 db, which is negligible. Even a doubling of power would amount to only 3 db, which while easily perceptible is not a huge increase.
In addition to researching which of those tubes others have reported to be preferable in the particular amp from a sonic standpoint, preferably with SF speakers, you might try asking Kevin Deal at Upscale Audio for his recommendation. In addition to being a very knowledgeable seller of tubes, he is the USA importer/distributor for PrimaLuna.
Regards,
-- Al
|
The EL34 has a very good reputation in the sound department. A lot depends on how well the ultra-linear taps on the transformer are executed; if done correctly the linearity is just about the same as triode so my vote is for the EL34 in ultralinear mode, assuming the transformer is designed correctly. |
85W vs 70W 5.7% loudness increase
45W vs 40W 3.4% loudness increase |
Djfst, I do believe your original question has been answered.
Without knowing the minimum impedance and phase angle of your speakers, as well as the dimensions, etc. of your listening room and volume levels you hope to achieve, it's problematic to provide quality technical assistance.
With what you have provided, IMHO a conservative recommendation to start with(?), might be to use a ss amp rated at 100 Watts that can double down, or a tube amp that's rated at 200 Watts. |
And without knowing the, uh, drum roll please, efficiency of the speakers. |
^sensitivity 91 dB, 4 Ohm nominal. |
How does a large power transformer affect high frequencies?
Output transformer, maybe... |
The large magnetic field produced by large transformers cannot be good for any frequency, high, low, what have you. |
Geez, guess I'll have to send both of my 62lb output transformers back, then... |
Djfst,
You can easily divide your 'tube watts' by 2 in most of cases driving Sonus Faber speakers...
So your tube watts are actually halved making you believe that they're loud.
They simply don't see anything below 60Hz due to the struggle with tough load. Most of the power of solid state "watts" are thrown to reproduce bass frequencies below 60Hz.
If you REALLY want to benefit from your tube watz u need to purchase amplified sub-woofer.
No rocket science at all. |
For what it's worth, IMHO, and I am certainly no 'techie' in this hobby, but what is 'better': tube vs. ss, 70 watts (tube OR ss) vs. 140 watts, monos vs. stereo amps, EL 34s vs. KT 88's, push pull vs. SET, U.S. made vs. European vs. Asian produced, class D vs. class A or A/B is so incredibly subjective as to render all discussions little more than entertaining exercises making comparisons and demonstrating experience, knowledge and preferences. Recently I bought my first set of class D monos (Bel Canto M1000) because I wanted more power than what my class A 80 monos produce. 500 watts vs. 80 at 8 ohms. Also in the mix is my 250 watt ss Halo A21. Class A vs. A A/B vs. high powered class D. I've owned SET's, EL-34 based, KT-88 based, high powered, low powered tube amps, you name it. Do the 500 watt class D amps play louder? Maybe. If so, not by much because once all 3 are stretched out to about as loud as I can stand it, I quit turning the volume knob up on the pre-amp. To me the lesson is this: buy what sounds good to you, and buy ample power so that your amps don't clip at max volume because that is what fries tweeters, not an overabundance of power, but a dearth of power. In my case I really like the sound of all 3 amps, so which to keep? All 3 play plenty loud, so which are more practical, look the best, demand less energy, appeal to me subjectively? That's the fun part of the hobby. My 2 cents. Good luck! |
