Since I just installed some rather expensive NOS 6922 Telefunken tubes in my Phono-preamp, that yielded outstanding results, I decided to compare CD to Phono.
From the best of "Jacintha", CD, I selected "Danny Boy". Her voice emerged deep center stage from a jet black noise free back ground. It sounded more like what I expected from the analog.
That was followed by special LP's of Dinah Washington that had recently arrived. Those LP's were everything I expected with the NOS 6922 Telefunken Tubes in the Phono, but the surprise was the fact that I couldn't tell the two apart; both were outstanding.
What may surprise you, is the fact that I attribute these outstanding results from the COVID 19 "lock-down" which has given us the quietest "grid" ever in history. That means those of us with lesser means have the same AC power as the richest who can afford expensive AC power "clean uppers".
BTW, I have made extensive comparisons to recordings made before and after, the lock-down that confirm just how much of a difference it's made. I must admit that I had doubts about expensive power conditioners, but this confirms that fantastic results come from taming the wild AC.
It's my belief that we can not achieve better results than we have from the current "quiet grid", which means power conditioner or no power conditioner, we are all presently getting the same results.
Could it be that the dominant factor when comparing tube and SS when they both are of comparable quality is "The quality of the AC"?
Continuing with the 'seismic theme,' and the vibrations/resonances from human activity, here is data from the bands (and more) during the Rose Bowl Parade in Pasadena.
Guys, you know those tin cans hanging from the telephone poles? Those are transformers that turn the several thousand kV (depends where you are. Ours is 8 kV) into the 220 V for your house. There may be 10 houses or so hooked to the same transformer. The Transformer isolates you from the high voltage lines. The only "trash" you get is from the other houses on your transformer.
I'm afraid that's not true. Noise can easily pass though the power line transformers you see on power poles. Particularly noise from 3 phase high current industrial motors. With many factories closed or operating at a reduced level it's quite possible the grid is quieter for a lot of folks.
I have worked in some of the best recording studios in the world and most of them employ extensive systems to provide quiet, clean A.C.. The systems never employ regeneration, FWIW. It's all filtering, supplying balanced power where it can be used and many dedicated / discrete grounds for each circuit.
david_ten Continuing with the ’seismic theme,’ and the vibrations/resonances from human activity, here is data from the bands (and more) during the Rose Bowl Parade in Pasadena.
Thank you Glissando for your very informative post.
When I turned on my rig and it sounded much better, although I hadn't done anything to bring this about, I put 2+2 together and came up with the answer; the quiet grid that resulted from the COVID 19 "Lock-down".
David, since you're good at finding answers to obscure questions, maybe you can find the answer to this question; I live in a quiet neighborhood, so I know it's not the neighbors affecting my AC, but industrial activity miles away; the question is, how far away can industrial activity affect your AC?
As I explained before, I down-load LP's to hard-drive, and listen to my "play-list" from the computer at my leisure. After I noticed the new recordings sounded better than the old, that confirmed a number of things; not only was the computer functioning better, but everything else as well; power supply for phono-pre plus everything else that has a power supply.
There are millions of people who are benefiting from this "lock-down" and don't even know it. Now that many are going back to normal, that might be past tense; it came and went, and they didn't even know it. I on the other hand, have it recorded on my "external hard-drive", which means that if the computer turns to junk, I have it all in a little box that I can take with me
Thanks for you answer. If I read you right, then it matters getting the big dawg Equi=tech as it does a better job than say a Niagara 7000? The Equi=tech is/does the same thing as a 7000 only a lot more of it?
If only Garth Powell would suddenly appear and render his thoughts?
With apologies to OP for the deviation. I love tubes but good/great high end is a matter of preference. The other day I heard a Peachtree integrated into some Totem speakers and it was lovely. Room was good.
Mikelavigne, that is so true. My first love was a Phase Linear 4000, it did everything; you could alter the music so many ways, and not stop until everything sounded exactly like you wanted it to sound.
"Equalizers" were the rage back then. I went to a high end store and non of the equipment even had tone controls; "What is this, no tone controls?". That's when I came to the realization that what I really wanted to hear was whatever the artist presented; no more, no less.
If you prefer to "sculpture" the audio to your specifications, that's fine, that's what I used to do.
There are so many different things that sound "good'. It's not until you make the decision to want to hear only what the artist presented that you will be on the path to "Nirvana". This is a very narrow and difficult path to follow.
All amplifiers work with DC. AC is converted to DC inside all amplifiers thru transformers, rectifiers, hi freq filters and smoothing capacitors. Lower wattage power amps may also use regulators. Because of this, the quality of the mains AC has virtually NO effect on the sound (the DC) if the amplifier is properly grounded and there are no ground loops.
ALL the necessary design to make the DC as smooth as possible are ALL included in the amp itself. Noise reduction, CMMR, smoothing, ripple reduction and transient current capability are ALL included in the power supply of the amp itself.
Where you need a good quality clean AC is if you are using AC motors, like synchronous and induction. These may be driving your turntable and their rotational stability is directly affected by the quality of the AC. Even then, most turntables these days internally synthesize their own AC thru precision electronics if they are using an AC motor.
Therefore, power conditioners are therefore a complete waste of money for amplifiers. The only (maybe) possible use they have is for safety against over voltage spikes (lightning ?).
The reason that most people "feel" that tubes sound "better" is most likely due to the 2nd order harmonic distortion that tubes inherently introduce. Essentially they are listening to distorted music. It is an irony that audiophiles claim they want to listen to the exact reproduction of the sound (which the SS gives you) but then again they prefer the tube sound (distorted).
For any device costing over a few thousand bucks, the sound preference is more of a personal choice rather than "quality" of the amplifier.
Cakyol, you get the prize for the most erroneous post I've read today.
How good the DC is will be determined by how bad the AC was, as well as the quality of components in the "power supply" which is where AC is turned into DC.
My two cent, to people who like transistor sound "without distortions". Most of these people like to talk about science, measurements and distortions - having zero engineering and technical background.
1. Transistor as amplification elements has much higher level of distortions compared to triode. In addition to that, transistors have temperature dependence distortions that tubes don't have. This kind of distortions have inertia that make them even worse for human brain perception.
2. "Good characteristics" of transistor amplifiers achieved by using feedback everywhere, that causes to replacing of low order harmonic distortions to high order harmonic distortions. Human brain recognises of a smallest amount of high order harmonic distortions because they are unnatural.
3. The single advantage of transistor amplifiers is lack of output transformers.
4. Our brains perceive distortion in a completely different way than instruments. There is a whole science of psychoacoustics that deals with this issue.
Taking an example of a voice coil using 10 meters of 0.2mm Copper with a typical resistance of 5.5 Ohm at 20 degrees C.
Apply power (music signal) & the voice coil jumps to 120°C and the resistance rises to approx. 7.5 Ohm….Now the resulting current flow through the voice coil drops by approx. 35% ….So does the SPL….This is a 35% distortion!
Orders of magnitude worse than the usual suspects of THD or IMD which loudspeaker manufacturers like to quote.
With passive crossovers in multi way systems thermal power compression will shift XO frequencies when the voice coil resistance changes – resulting in summation errors between the two drivers involved, depending on program and listening level.
The same holds true for notching out resonances or compensating impedance….The more complex the passive crossover the worse the TD effect becomes.
Why 120 degrees C?
This is a safe or medium range voice coil temperature, many voice coils hit double or triple this temperature on a regular basis.
The energy involved is as follows:
The weight of our VC wire is slightly below 3g if we calculate length multiplied by cross sectional area multiplied by specific mass of copper.
We require approx. 1 Watt for 1 sec for each Kelvin temperature increase (no cooling assumed here), looking at the thermal material constants for copper
To heat up this < 3g of copper wire our voice coil is made from, we only need 10 sec of 10W input to finally arrive at a 100°C increase – or – if we have fortissimo playing – a very short 1 sec of 100W input."
If you notice, SS devotees define this audio thing by what's missing "noise and distortion"; while tube devotees describe it by what is present and not missing, "music", that's what's not missing with tubes.
Some time ago, a lot of noise went along with tubes that didn't occur in SS; but now that noise is "inaudible". I know because I can't hear it in my rig, nor can it be heard in the current best tube rigs. You can measure it but you can not hear it; that's what "inaudible" means.
"2nd order harmonics"; I have no idea where that came from or what it means. It's like a rumor which has been repeated for so long that they believe it's true even when they don't know what it means or how it affects the music.
The foundation of the SS devotees rests on what you can not hear. That's kind of flimsy when you think about; "you can not hear total silence". That's a good thing for them.
They have their silence, we have our music; that's fair.
I thought that because people were staying home, they were using more A/C, or more heat, cooking more, using more hot water, etc. OR? Do you live in the midst of a bunch of factories or malls? It has always been my opinion that a few minutes listening helps to psychologically isolate out the sounds we do not like, which dealers tell you is a break in period. To support this claim, I have three complete systems, two using excellent electronics and sources. When I switch systems, it takes a few minutes for it to sound "just right", even if I have intentionally left them both on. When I use my Polk XM tuner, it takes longer for my ear-brain connection to begin hearing the music, instead of the faults, and even longer for my TV system to inure a nice sound into my brain from the horrible signal and from the mediocre, at best, Rotel FM/preamp combo (powering a Bryston through B&W's) that I paid $15 for because the tuner supposedly did not work. For more on this, check out "The Skeptic" magazine (online) for the article "Audiophoolery", in which it is suggested that the break in time of 90 days is suggested because that is how long your credit card company will issue a refund against the will of the retailer.
Speculative, anecdotal at best with regard to COVID19.
My stereo (just dated myself: who uses “stereo” anymore? It’s “audio”) sounds horrible when it’s humid out. Does everybody else’s? I don’t think so.
As for ss v tube: ss sounds less colored more accurate, but flat to me. Tube more dimensional, lifelike, but with “idiosyncrasies”. We all hear differently, have our preferences. I prefer the later.
Speculative, anecdotal at best with regard to COVID19.
My stereo (just dated myself: who uses “stereo” anymore? It’s “audio”) sounds horrible when it’s humid out. Does everybody else’s? I don’t think so.
As for ss v tube: ss sounds less colored more accurate, but flat to me. Tube more dimensional, lifelike, but with “idiosyncrasies”. We all hear differently, have our preferences. I prefer the later.
Many "observant" people have noticed that on holidays, and late night their rigs sounded better. Orpheus10 - could it be sir that on holidays and late nights, the objective listening is done under the influence of ones favorite recreational stimulant or narcotic?
If you don’t need massive amounts of power to run your system would a stand-alone box regenerator be enough?
when you say "your system", are you talking ’a’ system or.......’my’ system?
obviously ’my’ system is built on lots of amplifier headroom. i have very efficient speakers so even though my main amps are powerful, they use around 10% or less of their potential. same with my class D bass tower amps. so while rating the re-generator capacity i’m figuring full power applied, in reality it’s a small fraction of that is ever used.
so for my own system i do want plenty of headroom for the re-generating capacity, and do prefer the 10kva Equi=tech.
but in a smaller system, or if i was not concerned about having the headroom with my current system, i do think i could be well served by a plug in smaller box re-generating unit.
but how i look at it is with my upper 6 figure investment in gear and a clean sheet of paper build opportunity; whether i spend $5k on a stand power alone box, or triple that, $15k all in, on the Equi=tech, barely dents my budget picture. assuming you have the choice in your building to go my direction, it’s crazy not to. but if that is not logistically possible, the smaller box approach is just fine......and would be ’enough’ unless you are crazy like me.
last night i listened to ’Do You Feel Like I Do’ from the MoFi pressing of ’Frampton Comes Alive’ at Warp 11. every molecule in my room was energized. i was in another dimension. the system was not stressed or congested even on the peaks. that is BIG music with a capital ’B’. i got no sense of reproduced music......and to carry that off it does take headroom in the amps and power grid. no sag or distortion. how important is that to you?
Hi Mike, I meant 'a' system. We would all like to have a system like yours, but for many of us, it's not in the cards. So my question was whether a small regenerator would be adequate for a more modest system. Thanks again for your reply.
They both have there place .I have some nice tube stuff Fisher integrated amp,Sherwood integrated amp,Harmon Kardon Fm integrated amp,Caryin integrated amp .At times I like my tube stuff other times I like my SS...but it's nice to have change....
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