Tube amp for "difficult" speakers,,,

Hi cjinsc, by 2017 I have ended up with Atmasphere MA-1 mk 3.2 amps driving Audiokinesis Dream Maker speakers, augmented by a modified (bridge coupled) Pioneer 912 driving Audiokinesis LCS speakers (you can see my updates in my system blog here at the forum). The LCS upgrade was needed to get a volume level more tuned to rock music and the the big Krell sound that I was used to, in my fairly large listening room. I am happy with this solution. The system sounds good even when parts of my front end are in for repair, and I have to replace with a cheap component, just to be able to play music. Its almost like a jazz combo. The front end (amp speaker room combination) of the system continues to play very well, very musically convincing, whatever the input.  So,I don't look back.

O holter,

Just curious what did you end up with?

Regards,

Soon to be Dynaudio Confidence C-1 ii owner with 70 Conrad Johnson tube watts that may not be enough :)

Update: I ended up selling my speakers and amp. I now use tube monoblocs with less demanding speakers, and enjoy it.

100% agree on the CAT JL2, which I owned for several years before switching to Atma-sphere M-60s which drive my "easy" speakers to perfection.

CAT JL-2. Not clear if you are still in the market and I would not want to spring for any tube amp of the size you will need without auditioning it with your speakers. Having said that, I've not seen any tube amp (or most SS) that handle difficult speakers like a CAT JL2. You are looking at a big, heavy, hot amp but it handily outclasses anything I've heard on my Apogee Diva's (and before them, Infinity Beta's). At one point I used it to drive some older speakers I built with Strathearn ribbons (1.1 ohm load). Have never heard it sound less than wonderful.

mbhintz

Just for your information, Atmasphere MA1-s cannot drive Dynaudio Consequence speakers (i have mk2). This is no big surprise but I wanted to mention it so you don't mis-invest your money. Using autoformers helps a bit but not enough. Both are great products. They just were not made for each other. MA2-s might be another story, and perhaps MA3-s would sound great with these speakers. They demand lots of power, as many others have written.

I heard the Dynaudio Consequence Ultimate at a demo in Oslo recently, powered by Macintosh monoblocs, no less than 3 huge boxes behind each speaker. Since it was an amp setup in the extreme price range I didn't investigate further. Sure, the CU's rocked, and I could hear improvements from my own mk2 (standard) C's. But I was also thinking that some of the sound reflected the amps and that standard C's, too, would have played more lively with greater unconstrained presence, if hooked up. Obviously Dynaudio hasn't changed the basic power hungry character of the speaker (complex design kept + improved, better drivers + x-overs). I asked the D representative "what kind of amp do they need", and he claimed that they would play well on smaller amps also. I don't believe it.

In the last months, I have been comparing apples and oranges - a small OTL amp on headphones and desktop speakers, and my main Krell/Dynaudio Consequence system. So this is really "micro" versus "macro". I use a Korg MR-1 recorder to record LPs on the main system, and playback on the small system, so the nice thing about this testing is that the source is pretty much the same.

Experience? Of course the big system beats the small, in most ways (as it should costing x times more). Music becomes "embodied" in a way the small system cant deliver. At the same time, there is green grass on both sides of the fence, and one should learn to recognize and care about the good points of a system, not listen for what is bad.

In my case, the OTL (Audiotailor Jade) delivers top clarity and a good soundscape that is more neutral than e g my Ming Da tube amp (18 watt single-ended triode) but then, the playing level is different, this is a micro system. OTL in big watt amps may be difficult, or not really the area where this technology shines, I dont know. OTL seems theoretically better, but it has to contribute in a larger context and drive the speakers right.

I have heard a very good OTL system of an audio friend, but it still had a little bit "look in here" quality compared to my own system that "pushes" the listener more. My metaphor after listening to that system was Jewel shrine. I find some of this quality in the Jade too. OTL can sound a bit thin or hollow or cold, but this is much a question of speaker match (no thinness with Jade driving Senn 600 headphones), good tubes, etc. But from my limited experience, SET amps outperform push-pull OTL's (and standard p-pull) especially in the "human" mid-frequency region like reproducing voices.

I am no engineer, possibly, "hybrid" is a way to look, based on this discussion. Musical Fidelity offers a s-state add-on for tube amps that got a good review in Stereophile if i remember right, although adding amps may not be the best thing according to straight wire with gain philosophy.

If someone announced a SET OTL amp 300 watt+, and it got good reviews, I would certainly have liked to try, and might buy it. Today, my speakers thrive with 2x600 watts and my feeling is that they would sound even better with 2x900 (or, two Krell 600s). I think tube amps often have stronger watts, as a rule of thumb, so perhaps 300-400 would do. But then we are looking at extremely expensive niche products.

A question is, if this is due to taking a technology out of its "easy" terrain. Solid-state + big watts= quite easy. Tube Set and Otl low watt - easy. Each of these, to middle-low watt - quite easy, like 20 w triode. Combined not so easy. Higher wattage - very difficult. Correct?

I own a Butler 2250 and am driving a pair or Ariel 7Bs. The 7Bs are somewhat hard to drive but the Butler seems to have no problem doing so. I listen to my system at 95db to 100db often without issue. I'm not sure you could call the Butler a tube sounding amp in the true since of the word, but I would call it slightly on the warm side. Good luck and keep us posted.

Have you heard of the new Octave amps from Germany? They are built to drive loads as low as 2ohms.

V/r
Audioquest4life

Haven't tried them. Can only report back from a Quiksilver monobloc 2 x 60 amp solution, so far. They did not make it, compared to the krell 600, driving the Dynaudio Consequence. Suspect i would need 400 tube watts or more for these speakers.

Has anyone here tried either the Moscode 401HR [200wpc RMS 8R, 300wpc+ RMS 4R, can be vertically Bi-amped] or the Butler Audio TDB 2250 [250wpc RMS, 8R, 400wps RMS 4R, 800W bridged (mono)] into a low sensitivity circa 83dB loudspeakers with impedance dip to 2R at 20KHz?

Both are hybrid design which whilst giving a valve flavor marry SS in order to provision the power required to drive difficult loads.

Borrowed a pair of Quicksilver 2 x 60 watt p-pull monoblocs from a friend. Didn't make it. Not surprising. These are good amps and didn't sound so openly "strained" - but clearly, they didn't grab the speakers in the full way that the s-state does. After two days my family said, why dont you put the old one back. I agreed.

Microstrip brings more user experience into this thread - experience much in line with my own. When you get these speakers to work, you dont want to part with them. My Krell fpb600 is a good match, although not perfect. I want to thank the contributors in the thread. I will try tube amps when I get the chance.

The big Wolcott amps are reputed to be able to fill your needs.

I had some experience with the Dynaudio Consequence’s, many years ago, and I still consider selling them cheap one of my biggest audio mistakes. But at that time I did not have a dedicated listening room and as they need a large distance between the speakers and the listener, the best listening position was at the place occupied by a large dinning table…

I heard some of the best sounds in my life with the Consequence’s and the Primare 200 system I am now advertising at Audiogon in a 80 square meter room, but the Krell amplifiers (KSA300s and KAS at that time) and Cello's were the best with these speakers. The Dynaudio Arbiter's and the FM Acoustics were only dreams for me, but a reliable friend who heard them with the Consequence's is still recovering after 15 years.

From my many experiences, including Audio Research Classic 150s, I would not advise using them with tubes, independently of power or electric compatibility. I have now a speaker with a similar behavior in my system – the wonderful Krell LAT1000s. They are a great speaker with the Dartzeel amplifier (200W, current limited) but my VTL 750s even in pentode mode can not control them.

I would advise you on upgrading your FBP600 to 700cx – they are completely different amplifiers, the 700cx is much faster and it should complement the Consequences much better. Also something tells me that the conrad johnson premier 350 – a great LAT1000 driver would be a good match, but is also only a guess.

Jaybo is without doubt a "voice of reason" when it comes to giving good equipment its due rather than mining for perceived shortcomings.

A follow up here. I found no dealer in Oslo with a big tube amp, willing to let me try it. Also, dragging 80 kgs is a big burden. Better, then, to listen to others who have tried this, before investing a lot of time and a poor back (prolapsis in 96).
Jaybo, above wrote to the essence that my Krell is already a state of the art case. I think he is right. I find that many things that I thought were due to the "analytical" solid-state perversions of the Krell are in fact other things, that the Krell just communicates. I thought it was "transistor" sound, but changing my system on other parameters make it go away, like using cerapucks under the amp and speakers and ceraballs under the turntable record player. And even, sandbags on speakers and sub.
The Krell is at its best when it plays loud, 90-95 decibels, measured from my listening position (ca 3,5 meters from speakers). This is a bit load for my taste, but at that point, the amp runs at mainly class A, and there is not much to critizise. Especially the synergy with the Io preamp is good. Since the Io is heavily tube-loaded, it tends to correct the trans errors in the krell.

oystein
Oystein

Tvads assessment of the issues is a sound one.

Atmasphere takes a very different approach to tube amp design that just might fit the bill. I would investigate this further if I were you.

This is a topic of interest for me as well in that I like what I've heard recently with good modern day tube amps but my Ohm 5's (and Dynaudios) both present a challenging load that I do not believe most tube amps would handle very well.

O Holter, I'd be very interested in hearing about your results if you go the tube route with the Dyns.

A couple of years ago I heard two models of Dynaudios large floor standing speakers driven with ease by VTL 450 monos.

On other occasions, Dynaudio Temptation were driven by the superb Atma-Sphere MA-1s.

The Atma-Spheres, VTL and Sim audios Rock solid state amps were a very good match driving Dynaudio speakers.

I would like to add ,I purchased a pair of Dynaudio Special Anniversary 25s in 2004 to use as a second pair of speakers in my system.
I found the Atma-Sphere M60 MK11 monos a thrilling match for the speakers. Even the 30 watt Atma-Sphere amp drove them with no noticeable problems.

For sure I prefer tube amps driving Dynaudio speakers.
If you are going to keep your currant speakers, perhaps try the VTL 750

I have listened to the Temptation on a few occasions and have seriously considered them at one time, a used pair however.

O holter, this may sound crazy for the price difference, however it is for real.

For a fraction of the price the Canadian Grand Veena Reference 3A speakers is a must listen.

Right now I am in the city where the 3As are made. I have listened to them ....Absolutely stunning for the price.

What I heard, I like them better then the Temptations including a few other expensive brands on my shopping list.

They're no longer made, but you might look for a Mesa Baron. Here's one available on eBay.

O holter, understood. My apologies. So, then, what about that MA-1?!

I am on holiday and not able to follow this thread so often, so this is just to say, thanks for more advice and suggestions, and also: I use the Aesthetix Io, so I am not exactly new to tubes.

Yep, its the load, impedance-wise on the 2+2's. I should have been clearer. When I talk here about driving a speaker, I tend to talk about impedance/sensitivity together, until I'm absolutely forced to talk about technicals. BTW, I still liked the MA-1s on them. Then again, I'm an SET guy these days, so dynamic compression doesn't bother me as much as most. What are those Dynaudios we are talking about here - 4 ohm load? That sounds familiar in my head.

I've got a second system with 88db (or, 89, I can't remember) sensitive LS3/5A's, but they are 15 ohms, so I can run them quite well with an Air Tight 300B 10W amp. You wouldn't think so, but its works quite well. No head-banging, but its not meant to be that way, can't be.

Anyway, 83db/4ohm speakers I think are going to suck up some serious real estate. To be honest, I think someone you wants those types of speakers should go for a Pass 200 watter and be happy that that's as close as he's going to get to SET, or OTL, mids, spacial rendition and harmonics.

I assume the sans-ZERO MA-1s could do the job, but, then again, he's coming off of 600W of Krell...

Hey, o Holter, what do you say about some big OTL's? Ralph Karsten is here and he's the man...OK, I'm changing my mind...anyone who has Krell on a 83db speaker and wants to go SET MUST be willing to get into the deep end, right?

Ralph, I hope I just helped you with a sale!

Hi Mark, the trick to driving Accoustats is being able to deal with the load. A friend of mine had them- wicked low impedance- but we ran them with a set of M-60s and a set of our Z-Music autoformers to deal with the load. They sounded fabulous and could play any reasonable volume- we never ran the system out of power. He had an ARC too; it needed the autoformer as well!

These days you get a set of ZEROs (we don't make the Z-Music anymore) and a set of M-60s will do the job. You would need them even if you had MA-1s; Accoustats are a 'difficult' load, and the ZEROs can be looked at as a great problem solver for things like that. IOW a great way to get a tube amp to drive a problem load.

People often ask if there is a degradation, which is a sort of Red Herring; obviously if the amp can't drive the load 'without', and it does it great 'with', then the answer is 'no, it works great!'

Hey Ralph, didn't mean to talk down the resale marketability of your OTL's. Hyperbole is a bitch, but then again it is a thread, right? On you MA-1's: I agree, nice amps, great amps, actually. And, yes, they always find a good home, in relatively good time, to the right guy. Hey, maybe it was too much pouring through audiomart newsletters (remember that, Crewe, VA?!), or maybe I've been permanently scared by my Jadis Defy 7 resale experience twenty years ago? Could be...

BTW, I had a friend with the MP-1 and I loved it too, almost bought it; one could swim all day in that luxurious phono. And I like that you are still around, like today, proud of your work.

But, like I said, lots of tubes. It's a psychological fact that, when advising on system evolution, that moving a guy from SS straight into a gazillion tubes may not be the most wise thing to do. I've done it with people asking for help and have seen the faces later. A few more interim steps is sometimes advised. Or maybe not. Like I said, I'd have to know O holter personally to make that decision; mine was a context dependent answer in the middle of a probability analysis...

Basically, I see your MA-1's as a product that is fairly sophisticated; not necessarily in operation, but who ends up there. Please take that as a compliment. With that said, I think that guys who think that they may want to move from 600W SS amps and go SET with a 83db load, might need an interim step. Its the context dependent thing again.

On the 2+2's, we will have to agree to disagree. Granted,I have no experience with the M-60's on the Acoustats, and its been a while since I've heard either on their own, but when I say, take a hold, I don't mean it in a quantitative sense, as in, will it drive the speaker. I was thinking more in the sense, does the speaker speak with its best voice. My comrade had his Acoustats with MA1's and then a Berning and I preferred the MA-1's by a mile(the luxurious part...), so I'm all for the MA-1's with just about anything, including a 83db load. Incidentally, he moved to the Berning because of all of the tubes. But, at the end of the day, I think he might still be tube-rolling the inputs on the Berning looking for that harmonic complexity thing. If you say back, no, the M-60's will drive 2+2's no problemo with dynamic authority and no loss of harmonic nuance throughout the spectrum, then I will defer to you there.

I met you once, Ralph. You won't remember; at a couple of CES's when I was reviewing, and then later at a Chi audiophile club meeting. A while ago now, but what I remember is that you stayed around after the meeting and talked to anyone who wanted to pick your brain. That was nice. More of that in audioland.

Mark Bucksath (Asa)

Asa, FWIW any Atma-Sphere product that gets updated to the latest level gets warranty reactivation. In addition, the warranty is transferable. This helps with the resale value on amps like the MA-1, which don't tend to hang on audiogon all that long.

Acoustat 2+2s are easily driven with a set of M-60s and a set of ZEROs. They are not a power-hungry speaker.

Good recommendation. As you say, ease of ownership is also an issue moving into tubes, and the Berning is about as plug and play as tube amps can be for someone making the move from SS. Not sure you can find a Berning anymore, I suspect it will be scare on the used market.

Yea, the MA-1's are great, but I hate moving a guy into that many tubes if I don't know him better; as in, can he handle the maintenance and pain-in-the-arse resale.

There are some good comments above. Yea, again, the RM-200 is a great amp and no trouble on resale, but what about all of that biasing? A Defy 7 anyone?! :0)

If I was moving a guy from SS to tubes on an amp and he liked Dynaudio (detail, dynamics, fast and relatively hungry), I'd look at a Berning...It will take hold of Acoustat 2+2's. Its reliable as a tank. Tube rolling is cheap if he wants to and there are plenty of guys out there to talk to him about the amp - knowledgable guys to boot. And, its, um, "nuetral" for a tube amp, so someone moving from SS feels comfortable with it. And on resale, if he wants to later, he barely feels it.

Just an idea...

What is the definition of diffcult speakers? My Focal JMlab Alto Utopias have a rating of 91 db/w/m and have a nominal load of 8 ohms. However, they can go down to 3.2ohms. People told me that my speakers are easy to drive. However, my Melody KT88 monoblocks (50wpc) don't have sufficient bass even using the 4 ohm taps.

The Consequence is not that hard a speaker to drive. We've had customers who have had good luck using our MA-2s. That's 220 watts of triode power FWIW.

If you can find Music Reference Rm 9 Mk 1 or 2,it would give you plenty of power and very good sounding.

Tvad, in the case of the Consequence, power does seem to be a main issue, but perhaps your comment was to Robtym (my speakers don't sound tipped up, just 'dead', if they don't get enough power). The Consequences are harder to drive than the monitors discussed here (dipping to 3.6 in the lower frequencies, plus a tweeter and supertweeter arrangement that probably is also demanding for the amp).

Robtym, this sounds much like my experience with the Cayin + Dynaudio 140. I would check it in triode mode. And why listen for problems if you like the sound. On the other hand, I also have noticed that the grass is not always so green on the tube side of the fence (yes the midrange is great and voices lovely, but after awhile...) - and i agree with your comments regarding s-state.

Dmailer, thanks, very interesting. Perhaps it would work in my present system also. I have mailed Speltz and will check this out.

Some good news - 8 Cerapucs arrived today, bought for a reasonable price from a user in Sweden. Compared to my DIY graphite / cones / bike inner tire solutions, they make a definite improvement (so far, under my record player and speakers). Some of what i thought was s-state grunge wasn't (honours to Krell). Probably more to come in this direction.

I am experimenting with grounding and have started a separate thread on this, cf. "Grounding the system" under Amps and preamps.

Oystein

If you try your speakers with a tube amp you may want to check out the Speltz zero autoformers. The zeros can double the impedence that your amp will see changing your 4 ohm nominal speakers to 8 ohm.

I recently did an in-store audition with the Primaluna Dialogue (38W) on a set of Dyna Focus 120s (4ohm, 86 db, impedance dips below my 52SEs). The Prima is the best amp I’ve heard, for my taste, since I’ve started the upgrade path... which is starting to look more like the opening chapter of an epic journey.

As for SS, I’ve listened to the Exposure 2100, Bel Canto 1000 and Ayre V5-xe, but wasn’t feeling it. The McIntosh MA6900 came close, but didn’t seem to have the presence and life I felt with the Prima... the engaging sense of decay... plus a little aesthetically show-offy for me, to be honest.

I threw a wide range of sounds at the Prima/Dyna combo -- Black Keys, Stereolab, Brad Mehldau, Count Basie – and went louder than I typically do at home (have a 40w Rotel that never goes past 12). Either I didn’t push far enough or don’t have refined enough ears to sense when the sonics are degrading.

It has been suggested to me (by those who know the Prima but have nothing to gain from the sale) that I shouldn’t have problems with my 52SEs as the Prima plays ‘bigger’ than it’s 38W power rating... but I’m still not ready to pull the trigger because of the various concerns I’ve been reading.

I’ll probably go back and push the Prima/Dyna combo a little harder... if anyone can suggest music to help spot deficiencies and/or point out what I should be listening for... I’m all ears.

As I dig deeper... I keep uncovering compelling SS alternatives to glass. The one that seems to stand out is the Red Wine Audio 30.2... so may have to give that a listen as well.

And have also heard good things about Simaudio, Music Fidelity, Van Alstine, Accuphase... all more or less in my budget, available for audition and totally off topic here.

Oh, dear...

Dear respondents,

Dev - thanks for the advice, I will follow up, but not sure if the CAT has enough drive to give the speakers the needed "song and dance" capability. Which my more powerful s-state amp gives even if it isn't tubes.

Robtym - it looks like your 52SE's dip down to 5 ohm in the 20-200 herz region, while my Consequences go down to 3.6 ohm. So a 100-200 watts amp may be enough, in your case (just guessing, i am no expert in this). To my amazement (thinking Dynaudio = difficult load), I recently heard a small Cayin tube amp drive a pair of Dynaudio 140 monitors to great effect, the sound was all over the place, speakers disappearing (a very well-damped room, though).

Since no-one, so far, has come up with a solution based on experience of a good tube amp driving the Dynaudio Consequence speakers, and I like their sound, I am trying various other things (damping, footers, cables).
Oystein

I'm also looking for a tube amp for my Dynaudio 52SEs... impedance curve can be found here:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/bookshelf/dynaudio-52se/page-3

Any thoughts about whether these would be difficult to drive with glass would be appreciated. I'm looking at the Primaluna Dialogue and Melody I880.

O_holter , CAT JL3 mono blocks should do the job nicely for you. I have had allot of amps over the years both solid state and tube and by far these are my favorite. What shocks me is that they out performed any of the solid state amps I have had in the bass region, just so much more realistic sounding.

One other thing is that the CAT's really don't even throw that much heat off, I had a pair of PASS X600.5's and they produce more heat.

Thank you for all your responses. I have appreciated this thread, you've given me a lot to test out and think about.
Øystein

If you ar considering changing speakers, I'll second the Merlins (I own the VSM-MXe)which suit my taste to a T; 30 watts is enough for them to be loud and dynamic - The Ars Sonum 30 watt integrated that Bobby at Merlin is importing makes fo a wonderful pairing. But, that is a different strategy all together.

I used to love Dynaudio sound, from Sonus Faber EA1/Extrema to Dyn C5, but I do believe Esotar 1 is no longer the king it used to be 10 years ago. That's the reason I moved away from Dyn C5, same reason that older gentleman moved away from Consequence. He owns a stereo business and starts importing Eben which has a ribbon tweeter.

Like most inefficient speakers, you need tons of power to have the same dynamic range of more efficient speakers. I am not talking about just playing loud, I am talking about the "jump factor". If you have ever heard a horn system, you will notice how natural the music is, how easily each musical note just flows out without strain, how dynamic contrast is so vivid and relax you don't need to crank up the volume to hear it. so since owning Extrema and C5 for 5+ years total, I decided to go back to more efficient speakers.

I haven't heard the latest Merlin VSM, I did own the VSM SE for a short time. Still using Esotar which you like, they are significantly more efficient and dynamic. if your room size is not huge, VSM MX or whatever version now might work for you both sound and money wise.

I still can't remember the name of that medium power tube amp, but I don't think you should bother trying to find one as I have never seen on goes up for sale on audiogon except the one from the same gentleman who eventually gave up and sold both his amp and Consequence.

The Music Reference RM9SE might work as it puts out 200 watts into 4ohms (from the 8 ohm tap on the amp), versus the 65 watts of the RM9 MKII. While it doesn't double power like an SS, it is a tube amp capable of lot's of power into low impedances compared with traditional tube amps. Another tube amp that I think would do the job would be a CAT JL2 - talk about BIG transformers... A tube amp won't do the bass quite like SS does, but I think a worthwhile tradeoff (that you keep to a minimum)with tube amps like the one's mentioned, including the large Manley's.

I dont have personal experience with your speakers but I have pretty inefficent speakers myself and have owned the Rm9 (not special edition) and Vac ren 70/70 both great amps but were a little lifless compared to the manleys my experience is that there is no shortcut you need alot of output tubes and massive transformers( I also owned joule grand marquis.) If you are moving from solid state I think the others will leave you a little underwhelmed unless you get a more efficent pair of speakers. But no doubt a tube amp is the way to go!

I forgot to say, a Velodyne DD18 with a sand bag on top. I love these tweaks that are cheap and make a clear improvement on the sound...Thanks Tvad, I will.

listen to some manley neo classic 500s or older reference 500s I dont think some of the other suggestions on this thread will drive your speakers adequately

Thanks to all for interesting suggestions and advice.

Rlawry - I have never seen measurements of the Consequence, but the specifications say "Impedance (nominal) 4 ohms, Impedance (20-200hz) 3.6 - 6.7 ohm, Impedance (200-20khz) 2.8 - 4.7 ohm". I am not sure what this means in terms of difficulty or irregular dips. What is clear, is that these speakers thrive with power - the more, the better. (Dynaudio created an inhouse amp, the Arbiter, for developing their speakers, which delivers something like 800 watts and had even more hefty power (I think) than the Krell). Actually, Michael Fremer wrote back "try 2 Krells" and although I didn't quite catch on at first, I do understand what he means (the Musical Fidelity website has info on headroom / power).

Jaybo - the speakers do sound good with the Krell FPB600 in many ways, best with the amp running on higher bias levels, as noticed by Colloms in the Stereophile 97 review already. I measure around 89-94 db 1 meter from the front of the speaker, then they have great dynamics, depth, and an effortless quality to the soundscape where many things can happen at the same time without any congestion. This is where a good s-state/5-way speaker system leaves others in the dust, with complex music especially. So when you have a rock group with orchestra, like Procol Harum "In Concert With The Edmonton Symphony Orchestra", you really get it all.

Not so good for my neighbours though, and a bit more volume than I need late at night. And - there is something with tubes, triode in particular.

Tvad - Pass labs XA-5 noted, will try to find a chance to listen. Likewise, Pubul57 - Music Reference RM9. Wavetrader - thanks, will try Kevin Hayes at VAC, although I note Tvad's point that 160 Vac watts was not enough for his Dynaudio-driven Silverlines. Not so surprising.

Semi - so did your older gentleman who used to own Consequence, give up in the end? That a medium powered tube amp from Canada sounded good is interesting, but I have considered things like Sonic Frontiers Power 3, thinking "not enough".

Changing the speakers is of course a possibility too. I am not dead set on the Consequence. Over the years I've grown to like the Dynaudio sound (e g the Esotar better than most other tweeters). I have read that the Dynaudio Evidence Temptation can sound good with tubes, they are a much easier load, but they are out of my price range. Have anyone compared them to the Consequence? Trouble is, the speakers that I've thought were clearly better, tend to have astronomical price tags, like the amazing Verity Lohengrin (heard at a hifi fair in Horten here in Norway - and even then, I was not sure, on all parameters).

My conclusion, so far, is to keep looking, and try a big tube amp when I get the chance. If nothing works, perhaps the speakers will have to go. I will of course report back to this forum when I have found a good combination.

Rlawry - I mailed Dynaudio, and got the answer that they don't believe in tubes for the Consequence, they mainly adviced me to try the Temptation. Yet their letter did not convince me that they had done much research regarding newer big tube amp designs for the Consequence.

One more point, for other people with good / 'difficult' speakers needing big s-state amps. If you want to chase out transistor sound, look at the system as a whole. I have found that there is a lot to be done to improve the sound, like a dedicated line, good stand, room damping, and a good tube preamp. In my case, upgrading to the all-tube Aesthetix Io was a huge improvement. I've also made a lot of tweaks, mainly to improve damping, including a Bright star sand box and inner bike tire under the record player. In fact I may even have overdamped some things. Somewhat surprisingly, a good sub (Velodyne DD18) has also contributed.

Sound Lab (and all true electrostatic speakers) are a difficult load for the previously mentioned reasons. However, there are tube amps that are very capable of driving them extremely well, Wolcott, Atmosphere and CAT being good examples.