I am on holiday and not able to follow this thread so often, so this is just to say, thanks for more advice and suggestions, and also: I use the Aesthetix Io, so I am not exactly new to tubes. |
I forgot to say, a Velodyne DD18 with a sand bag on top. I love these tweaks that are cheap and make a clear improvement on the sound...Thanks Tvad, I will. |
Thanks to all for interesting suggestions and advice.
Rlawry - I have never seen measurements of the Consequence, but the specifications say "Impedance (nominal) 4 ohms, Impedance (20-200hz) 3.6 - 6.7 ohm, Impedance (200-20khz) 2.8 - 4.7 ohm". I am not sure what this means in terms of difficulty or irregular dips. What is clear, is that these speakers thrive with power - the more, the better. (Dynaudio created an inhouse amp, the Arbiter, for developing their speakers, which delivers something like 800 watts and had even more hefty power (I think) than the Krell). Actually, Michael Fremer wrote back "try 2 Krells" and although I didn't quite catch on at first, I do understand what he means (the Musical Fidelity website has info on headroom / power).
Jaybo - the speakers do sound good with the Krell FPB600 in many ways, best with the amp running on higher bias levels, as noticed by Colloms in the Stereophile 97 review already. I measure around 89-94 db 1 meter from the front of the speaker, then they have great dynamics, depth, and an effortless quality to the soundscape where many things can happen at the same time without any congestion. This is where a good s-state/5-way speaker system leaves others in the dust, with complex music especially. So when you have a rock group with orchestra, like Procol Harum "In Concert With The Edmonton Symphony Orchestra", you really get it all.
Not so good for my neighbours though, and a bit more volume than I need late at night. And - there is something with tubes, triode in particular.
Tvad - Pass labs XA-5 noted, will try to find a chance to listen. Likewise, Pubul57 - Music Reference RM9. Wavetrader - thanks, will try Kevin Hayes at VAC, although I note Tvad's point that 160 Vac watts was not enough for his Dynaudio-driven Silverlines. Not so surprising.
Semi - so did your older gentleman who used to own Consequence, give up in the end? That a medium powered tube amp from Canada sounded good is interesting, but I have considered things like Sonic Frontiers Power 3, thinking "not enough".
Changing the speakers is of course a possibility too. I am not dead set on the Consequence. Over the years I've grown to like the Dynaudio sound (e g the Esotar better than most other tweeters). I have read that the Dynaudio Evidence Temptation can sound good with tubes, they are a much easier load, but they are out of my price range. Have anyone compared them to the Consequence? Trouble is, the speakers that I've thought were clearly better, tend to have astronomical price tags, like the amazing Verity Lohengrin (heard at a hifi fair in Horten here in Norway - and even then, I was not sure, on all parameters).
My conclusion, so far, is to keep looking, and try a big tube amp when I get the chance. If nothing works, perhaps the speakers will have to go. I will of course report back to this forum when I have found a good combination.
Rlawry - I mailed Dynaudio, and got the answer that they don't believe in tubes for the Consequence, they mainly adviced me to try the Temptation. Yet their letter did not convince me that they had done much research regarding newer big tube amp designs for the Consequence.
One more point, for other people with good / 'difficult' speakers needing big s-state amps. If you want to chase out transistor sound, look at the system as a whole. I have found that there is a lot to be done to improve the sound, like a dedicated line, good stand, room damping, and a good tube preamp. In my case, upgrading to the all-tube Aesthetix Io was a huge improvement. I've also made a lot of tweaks, mainly to improve damping, including a Bright star sand box and inner bike tire under the record player. In fact I may even have overdamped some things. Somewhat surprisingly, a good sub (Velodyne DD18) has also contributed. |
Thank you for all your responses. I have appreciated this thread, you've given me a lot to test out and think about.
Øystein |
Dear respondents,
Dev - thanks for the advice, I will follow up, but not sure if the CAT has enough drive to give the speakers the needed "song and dance" capability. Which my more powerful s-state amp gives even if it isn't tubes.
Robtym - it looks like your 52SE's dip down to 5 ohm in the 20-200 herz region, while my Consequences go down to 3.6 ohm. So a 100-200 watts amp may be enough, in your case (just guessing, i am no expert in this). To my amazement (thinking Dynaudio = difficult load), I recently heard a small Cayin tube amp drive a pair of Dynaudio 140 monitors to great effect, the sound was all over the place, speakers disappearing (a very well-damped room, though).
Since no-one, so far, has come up with a solution based on experience of a good tube amp driving the Dynaudio Consequence speakers, and I like their sound, I am trying various other things (damping, footers, cables).
Oystein |
Tvad, in the case of the Consequence, power does seem to be a main issue, but perhaps your comment was to Robtym (my speakers don't sound tipped up, just 'dead', if they don't get enough power). The Consequences are harder to drive than the monitors discussed here (dipping to 3.6 in the lower frequencies, plus a tweeter and supertweeter arrangement that probably is also demanding for the amp).
Robtym, this sounds much like my experience with the Cayin + Dynaudio 140. I would check it in triode mode. And why listen for problems if you like the sound. On the other hand, I also have noticed that the grass is not always so green on the tube side of the fence (yes the midrange is great and voices lovely, but after awhile...) - and i agree with your comments regarding s-state.
Dmailer, thanks, very interesting. Perhaps it would work in my present system also. I have mailed Speltz and will check this out.
Some good news - 8 Cerapucs arrived today, bought for a reasonable price from a user in Sweden. Compared to my DIY graphite / cones / bike inner tire solutions, they make a definite improvement (so far, under my record player and speakers). Some of what i thought was s-state grunge wasn't (honours to Krell). Probably more to come in this direction.
I am experimenting with grounding and have started a separate thread on this, cf. "Grounding the system" under Amps and preamps.
Oystein
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A follow up here. I found no dealer in Oslo with a big tube amp, willing to let me try it. Also, dragging 80 kgs is a big burden. Better, then, to listen to others who have tried this, before investing a lot of time and a poor back (prolapsis in 96).
Jaybo, above wrote to the essence that my Krell is already a state of the art case. I think he is right. I find that many things that I thought were due to the "analytical" solid-state perversions of the Krell are in fact other things, that the Krell just communicates. I thought it was "transistor" sound, but changing my system on other parameters make it go away, like using cerapucks under the amp and speakers and ceraballs under the turntable record player. And even, sandbags on speakers and sub.
The Krell is at its best when it plays loud, 90-95 decibels, measured from my listening position (ca 3,5 meters from speakers). This is a bit load for my taste, but at that point, the amp runs at mainly class A, and there is not much to critizise. Especially the synergy with the Io preamp is good. Since the Io is heavily tube-loaded, it tends to correct the trans errors in the krell.
oystein
Oystein |
Microstrip brings more user experience into this thread - experience much in line with my own. When you get these speakers to work, you dont want to part with them. My Krell fpb600 is a good match, although not perfect. I want to thank the contributors in the thread. I will try tube amps when I get the chance. |
Borrowed a pair of Quicksilver 2 x 60 watt p-pull monoblocs from a friend. Didn't make it. Not surprising. These are good amps and didn't sound so openly "strained" - but clearly, they didn't grab the speakers in the full way that the s-state does. After two days my family said, why dont you put the old one back. I agreed. |
Haven't tried them. Can only report back from a Quiksilver monobloc 2 x 60 amp solution, so far. They did not make it, compared to the krell 600, driving the Dynaudio Consequence. Suspect i would need 400 tube watts or more for these speakers. |
In the last months, I have been comparing apples and oranges - a small OTL amp on headphones and desktop speakers, and my main Krell/Dynaudio Consequence system. So this is really "micro" versus "macro". I use a Korg MR-1 recorder to record LPs on the main system, and playback on the small system, so the nice thing about this testing is that the source is pretty much the same.
Experience? Of course the big system beats the small, in most ways (as it should costing x times more). Music becomes "embodied" in a way the small system cant deliver. At the same time, there is green grass on both sides of the fence, and one should learn to recognize and care about the good points of a system, not listen for what is bad.
In my case, the OTL (Audiotailor Jade) delivers top clarity and a good soundscape that is more neutral than e g my Ming Da tube amp (18 watt single-ended triode) but then, the playing level is different, this is a micro system. OTL in big watt amps may be difficult, or not really the area where this technology shines, I dont know. OTL seems theoretically better, but it has to contribute in a larger context and drive the speakers right.
I have heard a very good OTL system of an audio friend, but it still had a little bit "look in here" quality compared to my own system that "pushes" the listener more. My metaphor after listening to that system was Jewel shrine. I find some of this quality in the Jade too. OTL can sound a bit thin or hollow or cold, but this is much a question of speaker match (no thinness with Jade driving Senn 600 headphones), good tubes, etc. But from my limited experience, SET amps outperform push-pull OTL's (and standard p-pull) especially in the "human" mid-frequency region like reproducing voices.
I am no engineer, possibly, "hybrid" is a way to look, based on this discussion. Musical Fidelity offers a s-state add-on for tube amps that got a good review in Stereophile if i remember right, although adding amps may not be the best thing according to straight wire with gain philosophy.
If someone announced a SET OTL amp 300 watt+, and it got good reviews, I would certainly have liked to try, and might buy it. Today, my speakers thrive with 2x600 watts and my feeling is that they would sound even better with 2x900 (or, two Krell 600s). I think tube amps often have stronger watts, as a rule of thumb, so perhaps 300-400 would do. But then we are looking at extremely expensive niche products.
A question is, if this is due to taking a technology out of its "easy" terrain. Solid-state + big watts= quite easy. Tube Set and Otl low watt - easy. Each of these, to middle-low watt - quite easy, like 20 w triode. Combined not so easy. Higher wattage - very difficult. Correct? |
I heard the Dynaudio Consequence Ultimate at a demo in Oslo recently, powered by Macintosh monoblocs, no less than 3 huge boxes behind each speaker. Since it was an amp setup in the extreme price range I didn't investigate further. Sure, the CU's rocked, and I could hear improvements from my own mk2 (standard) C's. But I was also thinking that some of the sound reflected the amps and that standard C's, too, would have played more lively with greater unconstrained presence, if hooked up. Obviously Dynaudio hasn't changed the basic power hungry character of the speaker (complex design kept + improved, better drivers + x-overs). I asked the D representative "what kind of amp do they need", and he claimed that they would play well on smaller amps also. I don't believe it. |
Just for your information, Atmasphere MA1-s cannot drive Dynaudio Consequence speakers (i have mk2). This is no big surprise but I wanted to mention it so you don't mis-invest your money. Using autoformers helps a bit but not enough. Both are great products. They just were not made for each other. MA2-s might be another story, and perhaps MA3-s would sound great with these speakers. They demand lots of power, as many others have written. |
Update: I ended up selling my speakers and amp. I now use tube monoblocs with less demanding speakers, and enjoy it. |
Hi cjinsc, by 2017 I have ended up with Atmasphere MA-1 mk 3.2 amps driving Audiokinesis Dream Maker speakers, augmented by a modified (bridge coupled) Pioneer 912 driving Audiokinesis LCS speakers (you can see my updates in my system blog here at the forum). The LCS upgrade was needed to get a volume level more tuned to rock music and the the big Krell sound that I was used to, in my fairly large listening room. I am happy with this solution. The system sounds good even when parts of my front end are in for repair, and I have to replace with a cheap component, just to be able to play music. Its almost like a jazz combo. The front end (amp speaker room combination) of the system continues to play very well, very musically convincing, whatever the input. So,I don't look back.
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