TRL Marantz Sa-14
Audioezra, Well said. So I take it that you are underwhelmed with your TRL and your SA-14 player? Frankly, I am disappointed that I have not paid over $2,000 for my mod player. I have gotten so used to paying for high performance and getting less for my money. Now I am lost. I don't know what to do with the extra money I have since going with TRL. Jes45- I am in hot pursuit. I am trying to source the antistatic envelope I have and so far its from Germany. Stay tuned. Lou |
I recently owned the $17,500 CEC TL0 with a 24mxl audiologic tubed DAC with very expensive cable. I've owned the sony 775,595, and 2000, all TRL modded. They all handily overcame my $22,000 combo. All modded by TRL AND NOW I have the gold sa-14v2 that's the end. I no longer need to listen to my pro scully open reel with my more than 1000 professionally recorded 4 & 2 track tapes. I also had the sony 9000es modded by another modder for $2500, big mistake, big shot modder too. This man, Paul Wietzel is the epitomy of integrity. I call him the Norman Rockwell of American audio . Some one asked why would one pay for a mod. Because you simply can't get this level of performance at any cost, corporations simply can't cordinate to this extent, too many personal asperations. I think to spite one's reputation, even by suggestion, is all to common in this industry. If you have not tried it, leave deducing to Sherlock Holmes, no pun intended. For you guys seeking the best period, go with the marantz sa-14v2. I have over 30 years experience in this hobby, with great understanding as to how this community works. I'm not an amature. I submit this humbly. It pays to have a system up to the task of producing Paul's work. My suggestion to mister Wietzel is to raise his price by an order of (10) It will still be worth it, 5,000.00 dollars ? yea. But knowing his integrity, he won't. |
I've had my SA14 (and a CRL Silver series power cord) for slightly over 3 weeks now, and its been playing continuously for almost th entire time. The sound has been changing. Bass has gotten stronger so I need to adjust my sub down a bit. Top end still needs to smooth out more and the mid doesn't seem as fleshed out and natural as it did earlier. Power cords take a lot of time to break in (and this one has a ton of metal in it, its like wrestling a snake). I guess I need to give the SA14+power cord another 1-2 weeks to break in. |
La45: Hi Lou. I've been out of town on sales calls since Monday, but did get a chance to try a few different anti-static bags. So far, there has been no change. I'm sure that there is something there, but I haven't found the same material as you have. If we consider the rotating mass of a polycarbonate disc with several electric fields below it, it just makes sense that static could be an issue. I've found that my discs sound better after cleaning them with Record Research Labs Shine Ola (made by Brian Weitzel who helps with the TRL mods) even when they were previously cleaned with the same product. I'm assuming this is because the water in the solution is breaking down the static charge. I think that you are onto something, Lou. Unfortunately, I haven't found the same material that you have. I have a few more bags to try over the weekend. I'll let you know. Hchi: I did get to hear your 9500, Howard, as I stopped by to see the guys at TRL on my return trip. The TRL SA-14 is the best that I've heard so far, so I'll make comparisons to it, directly. Unfortunately, my last experience with the TRL SA-14 is one that is almost fully broken in, so my comparisons aren't really fair in some regard. In my opinion, the 9500 audio is very good. It has a sound very similar to the SA-14, very wide and deep stage, full frequency extension on each end and very analog sounding. It lacks a little detail and resolution, but then again, this will refine upon break in, with my experience of 8 TRL mods. Yours is a very nice looking unit, with a Gold face plate and the nicest gold like paint finish on the top cover. I wish that my black SA-14 looked as nice. I think that over time, once it breaks in, it will sound very close to the SA-14. Paul told me that he was confident that it would have that same TRL/Marantz sound once it is broken in. I didn't have a chance to check out the video quality, so I can't make remarks on that. I haven't heard of a universal player yet that does everything perfectly. Let me know if the 9500 has great video, too. I'd really like to know. By the way, Paul said that your's is a special unit made for the orient. It sure is beautiful. TRL Family: My SA-14 is going to TRL next week. Brian told me that they have 4 confirmed (with shipping tracking confirmation info) SA-14's coming next week, too. Hopefully, they'll have time to fit me in. I'll let everyone know my initial impressions, once I get it back. I got to hear the Transistor Research Labs ST-225 which is going to the Northwest Audio Mafia Club meeting at Cain and Cain Loudspeakers, in Walla Walla, Washington tomorrow. There will be a reporter from the Robb Report flying in from Los Angeles for the event. Unfortunately, I won't be able to attend. Keep an eye on the various forums, maybe a fellow audiophile who does attend will be so nice as to share info about the event? TRL makes State of the Art amps and pre-amps, both tube and solid state (Tube Research Labs and Transistor Research Labs). Hybrid SACD's and cd's (Fidelis Records and Diversity Records). High end cables (FIM and Cable Research Labs). Software cleaning products (Record Research Labs). And of course wonderful and affordable digital mods. Geez, what's next? |
Hi Reb, Thanks for the info on your TRL phono stage. You make a very good observation that all the mods share the same 'characteristcs', lower noise and smoother presentation without sacrificing detail. Very interesting since its anybody's guess what Paul and CO. are doing. On the Marantz SA-11, I assume a shipment came in and TRL is now shipping out these players. |
I am using a Benz phonostage that TRL moded for me. They also made me a power supply to replace the wall wart it came with. Guess I have it about 6 weeks now and about 125 hours. Kinda hard to breakin a phonostage.......lots of LP's spinning. Anyway, I have owned this model phonostage a few times already. So I am very familiar with its sound. Cleary there was a change as it broke in and the sound without question is different than the stock unit. I have the wall wart too, so I can judge without the better power supply. My best description of what the TRL mod does is provide a smoother and more even tonal balance. Nothing appears out of place or calls attention to itself. Also, clearly there is MUCH less distortion and noise in the signal. I can hear low level detail more fully fleshed out. And this detail is presented in a tonally "human like" way. In other words, it sound real, not electronic. About what was actually done is still a secret here. But my best guess is that the transistors in the gain stage have either been replaced with proprietary ones. Or the circuit has been altered to improve upon the stock transistors that came with the unit. Thata all for now. |
Hchi- I applied the ERS with copper sheets in strategic but safe areas around the transport. There is good space inside the Sony so its easy to apply. I am going at each application in small steps stoping and listening each step of the way. I am using certain discs that I know have very little information and hope that the tuning will open up the sound even more without trading off musicality. There is no science to this just a lot of fun experiments. |
I've applied the ERS that has adhesive under the cover of my CDP and a piece over the transformer in the CDP and my amp. Noise floor seemed to drop and each note is a little more fleshed-out. A combination of ERS and anti-static paper may be the ticket. Paul indicated this will be his second SA-8260 he has done so if the person who has the other TRL 8260 is out there please chime in! I will keep you guys updated. |
La45, I have been thinking of using StillPoint ERS with my Ah! also. Could you elaborate more on what you mean by "applied a few pieces around the transport area"? Does this mean small pieces of ERS is adhered to right above the transport on the cover, and the transport sides and bottom? Do you use the plain or the adhesive sheet? I also look forward to hearing the spec of the special anti-static sheet that you are using. Sbayne, Welcome! I am sure that you will enjoy your TRL8260 well! Please keep us updated about its progress. |
Sbayne- Yes, I have the ERS sheets in small pieces combined with copper shielding. I just applied a few pieces around the transport area. Keep in mind I am using the Sony 2000es which has no shielding. The transport is entirely plastic so I intended to add some tuning material. I have not completed the application but the preliminary outlook the background has a quietly formed 'stillness'. The anti-static sheet I am using unfortunately I have to find how and where I can get them. These could be a special grade but I will try to contact someone I know that might know about them and get back to you guys. |
Wow, great thread! I just sent a Marantz SA-8260 off to TRL. Paul recommended it over the Sonys mostly because of the transport and output stage. Can't afford a SA-14. I should get it back in about a week. The anti-static paper is an interesting tweek which I intend to try. Anyone try ERS sheets from Stillpoints under or on top of their CDP? The sheets help with EMI/RFI problems. I bet the ERS would really help the AH! player mentioned. |
Guys, I assume these anti-static sheet are these glossy semi-translucent dark gray color bags used for motherboard, VGA, and HD packaging, is it? If so, I will get a few from my work. My Ah! CDP seems to be pretty flimsily shielded. Perhaps it will work magic for me. Paul is wrapping up the work with DV9500. I asked him to evaluate whether disabling the headphone output will improve the sound quality; if it will not have any adverse effect, I also asked to have it modded if possbile. Jes45(Jack) may swing by to audition the player before it will get shipped back to me. With his extensive experience/knowledge about TRL products, perhaps he can give us some insight! ;) |
My TRL SA14 is continuing to break in. Speed, dynamics and general smoothness and coherence seemed to vary for better and worse throughout the break in period. The top-end has gotten more refined since about 3-4 days ago but isn't yet where I would like it to be. I figure in a week it will be fully broken in. I still have to try the QuickSilver... will try it first on the audio out and power in of the Marantz then go from there applying it elsewhere in my system. I am told the QuickSilver takes 3 days to itself break in so I better get going on it soon! |
Lkdog, Interesting that it works in my set up using the lighter Sony 2000es. I believe the SA-14 is over $3k new compared to the Sony. Yep it must be better shielded. You're lucky to have it. Did you try using the sheets and cd directly? Jes45 whats your experience? I repeated the experiment last night and confirmed that the change is not subtle. Anyone using the Sony if you could try the sheets let us know. |
Well, I tried a couple different CDs and different size anti-static sheets and could not hear a difference in my setup. La45- I have no doubt at all it has made an audible difference in your system. It may have something to do with the unique and different units/racks, cables, other components, etc. These SA14's do have a lot of shielding and weight added to them so maybe are less susceptible to environmental electromagnetic stuff. Who knows. This thing weighs 35 lbs or something. I don't know why it is so heavy. Sure sounds good :) |
LKdog- You are right, this maybe set up or equipment dependent. I really hope Jes45 is able to get some anti-static sheets. I am interested in his input. Jes45- This has to do with the "Full Image" pre by the designer. My hunch about antistatic has to do with Don Smith who told me that one of his design specs is to ground static electricity. For some reason I got to thinking that the cd itself has its own charge and it might affect the sound. Boy if you fellas were here you will hear how this has upgraded my system. The question is will it only work in some situations? |
Lou: I tried to get in touch with my computer tech friend over the weekend, but he was probably out enjoying the sun somewhere. What you're describing sounds like something that should interest us all, even those outside the "TRL Family". I've seen various colors used for anti-static bags, maybe I'll try a few different colors and see if that does, and will try a "grounding strap" of sorts to the baggie, too, to see if there's anything there. Who knows? Like I said before, this is something that benefits us all, and is an incredibly inexpensive tweak. Thanks Lou! |
Lkdog- Just an update. Where you position the sheet makes a difference. Under the TRL 2000es is the best location and I also attached a fine silver wire between the sheet and the player and ran it to a metal weight. Sonic improvement: "Gypsy Soul" track called "Slash" the heavy guitar since it is recorded close miked has less reverb. As a matter of fact I will have to say due to the tweek this resonance all but elimintate from my speakers. For those who do not have this disc try "Tiny Island" on Opus 3 label track 4 the first 50 seconds is a small instrument that some of you will recognize. Try the before and after test and you will hear what this tweek does. Jes45- Yep you are right Jack. Running a wire from the static enclosure to a ground will probably be more effective than what I made up. It removed feedback from the close miked guitar and removed a compressed bass anomaly from the "Gypsy Soul" disc-new flamenco. Everything sounds more vinyl and has an added character that just simply keeps you drawn to the music. The bass got firmer and gutsier and the top end smoothed out. In this Hobby this type of improvement would cost over $200. The flamenco disc by the way has Jesse Cook, Al Di Meola, Paco de Lucia, Ottmar Liebert etc. In the wrong system the disc is bright and aggressive but when everything is jelling, its very very good. Nice test disc. Lou |
La45: Thanks Cousin for your insight. I'll try your tweak later this week and will get back to you over the weekend. I use anti-static spray on my cables from time to time, which seems to really help, so it makes sense that there may be some magic in your tweak. By the way, how did you come up with the idea? It's a good idea ... Everyone: On a side note, I got my SA-14 V2 a few days ago and will run it at home for a few days to get a feel for it. I plan on sending it to the TRL crew within a week or two for their wonderful mod. More on that later. (Can't wait for the mod). Lkdog: So, you have 260 hours on your SA-14. That means you are about half way there. My friend didn't keep close enough tabs on the hours, but I'm guessing that he has around 700 hours on his now. It sure is a nice analog sounding player. I can't wait. |
La45- Will give the antistatic sheet a try tonight. I build computers on the side for fun and have a lot of these sheets laying around in back. I am always open to tweaks and enhancements that might add an element to the sound. The best recent ones I have found are the RRL Shine Ola CD cleaner stuff, the QuickSilver Contact enhancer, and plumber's teflon tape wrapped on the tubes of my Hagerman Cornet phono stage. My system sits on a DIY heavy MDF shelving racks that are mounted on threaded rods, and I am on a basement floor so I have some good things going as far as vibration. Static in the winter is terrible in my house though. Probably better now that we are entering the humid season in the Midwest. Mfslgoldcd- I am sure the SA-1 is a wonderful player similar in some ways to the Sony SCD-1 as far as venerable former flagship models. I see they are going for 3-4K$ at this point. The TRL SA14 investment is quite a bit less, however, and I guess that makes it quite attractive since it also seems to be giving people a reference player level listening experience. I am quite impressed with this unit as it breaks in now at about 260 hours. |
Hi Cuz, I had a hunch that anti-static materials might have some affect. I used an antistatic enclosure from a chip. The reason I mention it here is to report that I heard the sound change to a more solid character and wanted some of you to try it and report back here. I want to add a larger anti-static sheet to cover the top of the transport area since the sheet I have is 8"x 5 3/4" small. Since this is all experimental I can't offer any guidance on size or offer any info on if there are different anti-static ratings. Anyone out there that knows about this aspect are welcome to comment. I fully appreciate the note on the Marantz SA-1 player as a "search is over" final component. I have noticed that they are now appearing on the re-sale market for a good price. I just wish they were a little closer to my budget. Lou |
La45: Hey cousin, did you run a ground strap to the anti-static sheet, or just lay it on top without? I have a friend who "builds" computers that has boxes full of the sheets that you mention. Any specific size or material (color?) that I should ask for? I'm really excited about this tweak, even though I can't imagine my bass being much more "solid". Thanks, Jack |
Jsala, Acutally the TRL9500 will be used in a stereo rig only also. I am hoping that I can program most sequencies into my iPaq where I consolidate most of my remotes into. Things that concern me the most are 5.1 and 2-ch switch, DSD and CD/PCM layer switch, and a few others. I am wondering does the buttons of the SA14 remote work with DV9500? Thanks, -Howard |
Howard, I'm looking forward to your and Paul's comments on the 9500. I originally intended to get the 9500 modded for the same reasons as you (newest Crystal DACs, updated HDAM, perhaps better DSP). But what put me off was that the 9500 is designed to be used with a monitor, and my system is audio-only. Some functions require a monitor (e.g. turning digital output on/off) but you don't need to do these set-up tasks often. Other functions, like putting a disc on repeat, are easier with a monitor, but I was able to memorize the sequence of keystrokes needed. In contrast the SA14 is audio-only so I find it easier to use. I do still have it though.... |
Hchi- Welcome to the discussion and I hope the TRL DV9500 meets your expectations. As far as power and IC's, I use a Ven Haus Audio power cable made for digital. It is modestly priced and seems to be an excellent performer and is well reviewed. For IC's, I use RS Audio Silver Interconnects. Once again modestly priced, but viewed and reviewed as a very solid performer. Although is is pure silver, it is not hot or tizzy by any means and I have been happy enough with it to not worry too much about an upgrade. I am sure there are better power and IC's out there, but it is so system specific you almost have to try different stuff out IMHO. I want cables to stay out of the way and these seem to let the sound through pretty well. I use CD's and SACD's with a wide range of dynamics and frequency range for break in as suggested by others. I am not sure about having to break in both SACD and CD separately, but I alternate discs. Since I am also breaking in my TRL modded Musical Fidelity A300 amp, I have been doing some sessions at higher volumes at times. I also like La45's technique of turning everything off for a few hours and then starting the burn in again. As far as the sound after about 180 hours on the TRL SA14, it is natural, open, extended, detailed, smooth, with a deep, high, and wide visual soundstage. It is breaking in very nicely. Some tizziness on certain recordings, but this seesm to be more a product of the recording than the player (DiMeola-Kiss My Axe; Foreplay-Heartfelt). The unit seems to present the music fully and honestly so if a recording is mastered a bit hot like the above examples, it does not tame it completely at least at this point. By comparision, those CD's on previous players only took listening 10 minutes at high volumes to become fatiguing and harsh. The SA14 is a smooth customer, but as it presents the recording honestly, some stuff may still be a bit digital sounding. Overall, sounds analog on most CD's even more than the TRL Sony 595 which is saying something. Let us know how your unit turns out! |
Oldpet, Thanks for the suggestion. I have a couple performing CD's that have frequency ranging the whole spectrum with very dynamic rhythm and transient. However, I have more difficulty finding the similar's in SACD. Most likely I will burn-in the SACD (preferrably m-ch) with some large scale orchestral works as the last resort. Jsala, I have no doubt it will beat the crap out of my Ah! CDP that I am using now. However, that would not be enough. I was in Taiwan last year and listened to numerous high-end systems at friends' places both in digital and analog. I trully look forward to how well this player is going to perform. Originally I wanted to sign-up the TRL11 from Paul. But due to the short supply, I just couldn't wait. While contemplating between SA-14 and DV9500, I chose to go the 9500 route because of its newer 4398 DAC, updated HDAM output circuits, and m-ch support. Regarding the transport, I believe its transport should be similar or even identical to the one used in Denon3910 as they both source from D&M Professional. So far, Paul is liking what he sees in term of built quality, while the sound is still the 'typical' Marantz house sound. Knowing Paul's team is a bunch of miracle workers, I am hoping that the player could reach the league to be with the big boys such as TRL11 and 14. I can't wait to receive the player. By the way, what IC and PC are people using with their players? I am getting the Silver PC from Paul as well. Any recommendation for ICs? Thanks, -Howard |
Hi Howard, I think you will be pleased with the results. I also have an Asian Marantz 9500 (220v) and I am not at all happy with the sound on redbook or SACD, or as a transport. I find the high frequency lacking in refinement and the overall is not very coherent. And this is in spite of having the very latest Crystal dacs and updated HDAM output circuits. My TRL SA14 is still breaking in but it is already a much better player and transport. While it needs to further settle in, it is quite dynamic and natural. Play a well recorded CD or SACD (those those of Paul) and it will sound very analog. Let us know how your 9500 turns out! |
Hello guys, It is good to see a bunch of TRL users grouped here to share and discuss. I just have a Gold Color DV9500 FedEx to Paul for mod. Yes, it is an Asian Version rather than the black US version. Hopefully it will be ready by next week or so. By the way, what SACDs and CDs do you guys use to burn in your player? Thanks, -Howard |
Guess whose coming to Dinner? Over the weekend here is the lineup: Mark Levinson 380s, Mactone preamp, Meitner Switchman II, Full Image preamp. The total retail is $40,000 when new. Guess what was in front of all these great preamps? No one laid any criticism on the Sony 2000es. Considering these guys have over 15 years in this hobby, I feel good that the Sony presentation was lucid for all to enjoy. As for the pre shootout, each pre had a define sonic signature albeit there was a problem with the Levinson not having suitable warm up time (1 day) for it to smooth out. Overall an enjoyable day for the 6 of us in my listening room. In my opinion the clear winner is the Sony and a CDR disc burned from an original LP copy of the "Modern Jazz Quartet Live at Carnegie Hall". |
Quick update on the break in process- The TRL Marantz SA14 now has about 140 hours of break in time as I was gone for the holiday weekend and just got back this evening. The TRL modded Musical Fidelity A300 integrated now has about 200 hours (9-10 days) of break in on it. Both units will reportedly need at least 500 hours and/or a month or more of break in but I think the character or signature is there at this point. At this point, the sound seems to be maturing quite well. The lower midbass and lower bass that I was waiting on is now developing a nice physical/visceral quality to enhance it's already extended clean musical nature. The overall sound of this setup is very very natural and opening up quite a bit. Jes45- In answer to your question...I had a pretty open mind about expectations. I guess I was hoping for a nice incremental upgrade from the TRL Sony 595 which is a quite wonderful unit itself. I am of the opinion that there is a law of diminishing returns in this crazy hobby and the SA14 plus mod is not cheap, at least for me. Well, let's just say this appears to be all that I was hoping for and more at this point. Money well spent IMHO at this pretty early point in the break in process. Will post more as it evolves. This is a very musical unit. |
I've got about 60 hours on the SA14 now and it is doing well. It continues to be smooth, focused, clean, and coherent. But it is a bit bright on some recordings. Given that it is said to need 500+ hours of break in, I am confident that it will be excellent given how it sounds already. Jack, I will give the Quicksilver a try just before a short business trip this coming week so that it breaks in while I am away! |
Lkdog: Thanks for your praise, but I'm no expert. Quick Silver is an amazing product, period. The only downfall of the prodcut is that in audio applications, the sound will suck (bad) for the first 24 to 36 hours. I just let my player run on repeat for 36 hours, came back and shook my head, the sound improved so much! I've found that you want to use the least amount possible ... that too much can become a problem. (This can probably be said for the other silver conductive pastes, too.) I'd be happy to answer any question regarding Quick Silver from my experience. Either here or at my e-mail jack_seaton@yahoo.com . Brian Kyle (the manufacturer) answered all of my questions, so he might be a more logical source than me ... I don't make the stuff! In short, it works. I have a customer testimony at the XtremeAV.com web site for those seeking more detail. http://xtremeav.com/TestimonialsQSPage1.htm BTW, I'm very interested in your and Jsala's opinion of the TRL/SA-14. Is it everything you expected? Jack |
Jsala- Jes45 is probably the expert on QuickSilver. If you go to their website, I think he has his impressions/review of the product posted there. I did not notice any drawbacks before-only positive changes in presence and focus of the sound presentation. The science behind it makes sense to me. If you don't like it-simply wipe it off with alcohol or DeOxit. It does take most of three days to settle down after application. You won't like it the first two+ days. As far as the bass on the SA14-my setup has two major things going on right now with the integrated amp burning in and the then also the SA14 unit burning in. The bass is very clean, tight, and musical. I am sure it will fill out with that additional minor increment I am used to in my system when both the amp and SA14 break in. I listen to all kinds of music, but mostly a lot of late 50's and early 60's jazz ensembles (Miles, Adderley, Coltrane, Monk, Burrell, Brubeck, Smith, etc). So I really am not what one would call a bass afficiando, but I do like to feel the weight of the lower end a bit as long as it is consistent and not out of place with the recording. |
Yup, with the TRL SA14 my system is now pumping out a lot of deep, tight and tuneful bass. My system isn't built for bass-heads -- I have an ACI Force sub (little bro of the Titan) and, while my main speakers are running full range and are spec'ed to go down to 33 Hz, there is a limit to the quantity of bass that the Scanspeak Revelator 5.5" woofer can pump out. That said, it is sufficient to produce natural bass that is balanced with the rest of the frequency system. My system is audio-only, so no need to reproduce cannons, T-Rexes, etc. |
