I am a digital junky, so I have been thru well over a dozen players in the past 12 months. My favorite is the APL 3910. I just bought the TRL Sony 595 from the Tsunami auction, and will receive next week. Any one here have experience with this machine? I TT Paul from TRL and he said he is still shaking his head from disbelief on how good this puppy sounds. I am impatient, so would love some feedback. I also love the fact it is a 5 disc changer. Could it be a world beater? I have TT a person who sold his Cary 303/200 after burning this puppy in.
I would agree it is all subjective and system dependant. It also depends on what revision the APL unit was when compared to TRL.
Anyway, you will be second on the list. I have TRL595 and Exemplar3910 owner who has secured #1 already...:-)
I will contact all on the list when the 563a is ready for shipping.
The little Pioneer gives a good idea of how the Denon sounds. You will just have to imagine a similar sound on steroids which has more natural and refined character due to the tube stage inside. If you end up liking the little 563a and continue to be interested hearing the Denon, I will try to arrange audition. Ive promised a rolling APL3910 to many people, so I will include you on that list as well.
Interesting offer to folks, but we all know that owners of any gear are rarely objective. I have already talked to and heard from several folks who prefer certain TRL units to various iterations of APL units. And vice versa. That being said, these are all good units and in an elite class. There are just various opinions at this level of quality and it is phenomenological. I would be interested in your offer as a TRL unit owner, but would be more interested in hearing your flagship loaded 3910 out of curiosity. The offer for the Pioneer would be fun to hear also, though. I have a TRL Marantz SA14 that I am breaking in. You can email through Agon if you wish.
Hey TVAD, no offense taken. Was joking as well. But I still wanted to edit/soften my append post facto, and the darn thread wouldn't let me. LKDOG: As for shootouts, the only thing worse than a shootout. . . is a missed shootout. It looks like I may arrive in San Francisco on June 19th, 24 hrs after the upcoming RAM/APL Grand Jostle. Darn it again! I was hoping I could alleviate my DAC attack, at least temporarely ALEX: very generous offer. If I qualified I would take you up on the offer. But I've got only an EAD T1000 and EAD D7000 Mk3 combo, vintage 1994. I mean, my CDP is sooo goood can trounce just. . . oh well never mind! Besides, seriously, you already know the device I am waiting and drooling for. . .
Well, at least you have a sense of humor and don't actually take these pseudo shootouts seriously. I actually can accept somebody like Steve (711smilin) who may be off the hook a bit, but is honest in his undying APL allegiance versus anythng else. He doesn't bother with any stinking shootouts :)
TVAD, are you a lawyer? I can neither confirm nor deny what I do not know. Whenever I discover I have made a mistake in a post, like I did above, I correct it. LKDOG, what you describe is a typical outcome of acute DAC (Degenerative Audiophilic Dementia) discussed elsewhere on these pages. Look for the study by Dr. Schmaltzenstein on the dreaded DV-50 thread. Smilin, good to read from you again. Hope your devices will be featured in some upcoming shootouts soon. What will be needed is participants that do not own any of the disputed devices. Perhaps create a true 'blind' testing environment? >
If you guys are interested, and to make it fair, I can build one Pioneer 563a machine and send it to all TRL owners who want to hear it, regardless of which TRL modded unit they have. The only expense will be the shipping cost to send the Pioneer to the next person on the list. It is very light, so I guess it will not cost much. Owners of other ALL SOLID STATE (no tubes) modded players are also welcome to participate. I will be ready with 563a to roll in about 1-2 weeks from now as I dont have any readily available.
I guess 3 days will be enough time for evaluation so the policy will be to ship the Pioneer to the next guy on the list on the 4th day, given it is not weekend or holiday of course. Please email me your contact and shipping information if you are interested and I will put you on the list. First come, first serve. I guess this will be available for continental US addresses only. I trust your honesty 100 %.
Come on guys, the TRL 595 is a good player, the 563 is better IMHO, and the 3910 is just so much better, in every regard, you TRL guys are NUTZ IMHO. Yes, I own BOTH. Wanna come over and compare? See for yourself? Huh?
The author indicated that his friend with the TRL was not happy with the results and one can only assume that he took his TRL home in total shame and disgust. His wife has no doubt left him by now, he was fired from his job, and he is living in a box underneath an interstate in California somwhere by now. Worse yet, he has that lousy TRL unit he has to listen to.
That is the unfortunate and inevitable sad result of losing a shootout.
I just reread the report and I appear to be wrong. There is no indication that the owner of the TRL was absent or present and whether he/she agreed or disagreed with the findings.
TVAD, I read the report a couple of times. If I interpreted the shootout findings correctly, the TRL owner may be concurring with the author. Unfortunately mine is only an inference, as accurate as anyone's.
I concur TVAD that the opinions of both owners would be preferable. I hope the TRL owner will eventually come forth and either corroborate the extant findings, or voice an alternate opinion of the outcome.
My thoughts exactly. RAM has a "shootout" post on their website forum right now where all RAM units (including their entry level units) best every single APL unit. Of course in that "shootout" the writer was a RAM employee and it was his web forum :)
I have no issue with someone saying they like Unit A better than Unit B (everyone has a right to their opinion based upon listening preferences); just don't portray that it is an objective comparision.
Granted the article was apparently authored by the APL owner. It would be interesting if the TRL owner also decided to post his/her own independent findings.
A shootout comparison of the TRL 595 with the similarly priced APL Pioneer 563 has been posted on AA at: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/209929.html
You're right about different rooms! My system sounded quite different when I moved to a new home even though none of the components changed! More tweaking to come I guess...
Well, I know what works for me, but my opinion and info is just one of many - if it provides something useful to someone else then great. Everybody has a different system, a different room, and a different set of ears. Everbody also has different definitions as to what is a reasonable cost. One thing I know for sure, this is a crazy hobby.
I would tend to agree that people generally will utilize self hypnosis or auto suggestion in forming their impressions of their new mod that is in direct correlation to the amount they spent on the investment. No one wants to say that the 3000,4000,or 5000$ investment they just spent wasn't the "best they have ever heard". LOL!
This is where professional reviews can sometimes help, but these are usually very cautious and qualified.
I do think, in general, however, that most mods of digital and other audio units do make marked improvements so the user is very pleased. I also think that the ongoing debates as to what mod is the best sounding (TRL, RAM, APL, Empirical, Modwright) is probably just an exercise analogous to hearing about people's gourmet eating habits, albeit an interesting debate. All of these modders create extraordinary outcomes on their flagship model mods of the day. It is kind of like Aunt Bee and ladies at the Annual Pie Contest on Mayberry RFD. But, as we all know, everyone does not like the same "best" cherry pie recipe.
I guess the question (and solution) for me gains focus when I consider the reports on modder ethics, service relationships, analysis of initial stock plus mod investment cost/benefit, and the general ideal "house" sound of the modder.
In the end, there are a lot of choices for the end user and that is a good thing. People simply just need to do their homework.
TVAD, Good point, but on the same topic, one can reverse your post and ask the same about $20,000 units, the owners of these also convince themselves, and would not openly admit a tweaked player sounded as good...they would be more of a fool than the folks who modded units.
True, almost everyone posts a glowing review. Ideally you listen before and after the mod. Before the mod, pick out what you dislike about the sound, write it down if you have to (esp since the mod + break-in takes so long and you can forget!). Otherwise, its easy to get caught up in what you already liked from the stock player once you start reviewing the modded player.
I've had a few surprises with digital. I expected my Cary 303 to kill a friend's nOrh CD-1 (in my system). It didn't! I got a NOS Amperex Orange Globe 6DJ8 to replace the more pedestrian Siemens 7308 but instead found that it sounded edgier and less smooth. Funny stuff.
I think the only way that a cheaper player with a cheaper mod can beat more expensive players and more expensive mods is if the design philosophy is different.
If you look at military fighter jets, the last generation of planes produced by the Soviet Union were frighteningly good, matching or outperforming U.S. aircraft (F15, F16) in many dimensions, yet cost a fraction of the price. Whereas U.S. aircraft were crammed with bleeding edge technology, the Soviet planes were more selective and placed more of an emphasis on optimization of older technology. This is not a perfect analogy but perhaps it helps to make a point.
I do not know how TRL does its mod. Paul's years of experience with studio recording technology and very expensive audio gear ($30k cd players, $100k tube amps, etc) suggests that he knows what great sound is like and also what goes into the most premium high end components. Has he found a way to optimize the sound of the little Sony 595/2000ES and the Marantz SA11/14 so that they compete with the all-out mods albeit with a less parts and labor intensive approach? The thinking would be that the Marantz SA11/14 in particular are flagship products and are backed by teams of qualified engineers - there must be many good things to the design that can sound much better with a few judicious tweaks. Is a 100% different output stage necessarily better? The same applies to other aspects of the mod. I don't have the answers, but this is the only way that a $595 mod can make sense.
The only ways to know for sure are to a) dissect the TRL mod, b) do more head-to-head comparisons of TRL modded players with similar ones from APL/Exemplar/Modwright/RAM/etc. Ideally, the TRL Marantz SA11/14 would be faced off vs the top players from the other modders since the Marantzes sounds better than the Sonys.
On my part, I have a Marantz SA14 that TRL is modding. I took a leap of faith. I have a good feeling that it will turn out well. I admit it would be even more comforting if there were more info on A and B above. My other personal view is that I am confident about the quality of APL products (which undertake a massive reengineering of the stock products) so I may give Alex a try as well.
Jes45, That's impressive if you think it beat the Meitner. I'll look for the posts where you compare it with the TRL. I must admit that you have me very curious abot the player, and the only way I will ever really know is to hear it in my system. Reasonable people can hear the same components and come to different conclusions, but I find it hard to believe the TRL would be in the same league with Meitner, Exemplar, APL, etc. but it's certainly possible. There is really only 1 way to know.
Which $20K players/combos are not as good as the TRL/Sony 595? Well, I had a EMM Labs (Meitner) combo in my system for over a month (and it was already broken in). That's not quite $20K, but it isn't too far off. (I have first hand experience. How many nay-sayers can say the same?)
I'm sure that you've already read Speakerarts post above ... how much does a APL Phillips cost?
I've already covered the differences between the two in past posts here at A'Gon. Do a search ...
Chad, Hell! We're all insane, this hobby defines compulsive. I asked what $20k players don't sound as good as the TRL595. It's a reasonable question--I'm only asking that people back up their claims. I notice nobody has answered. I've never heard a $20k player so I wouldn't know, and my guess is that the guys making the claims haven't either. I love high value products. I sold my separates in favor of an integrated that is 35% of the price. Not because it was cheaper, but because I thought it sounded better. Nothing would make me happier than to find a cd source for $700 that would stomp $4000 modded players. Recently, I had a long conversation with a very respected modder and I asked him how close his mod for under $1000 would come to the Exemplar. He said his mod was outstanding, but there was only so much he could do with a certain amount, and that I couldn't realistically expect his mod to be as good as one that cost more than 4 times as much. I appreciated his honesty, and I understand that everything can be made better with money. As to your other point, we might all do better buying a boombox and putting the rest of our money in an income fund, but that is a matter of choice.
I have read alot of posts here and I see here and there that folks cant believe a mod can out-perform a $20,000 player. One post got a converstaion going that it is a $50.00 unit to produce, instead of asking how a inexpensive unit can sound so good, shouldnt more be asking "what the hell am I thinking paying $20,000 for a player?" Who is more insane? the person who buys a cheaper model and tweaks it for good sound, or the guy who spends a pile of money for a player...and better yet how much does that $20,000 player actually cost to make?, I would bet a FRACTION of the high price.
Jes45, I am taking your suggestion on the GT-200's, and if you love vinyl sounding digital, please try the APL. It is truely the BEST I have ever heard. I have not heard the 30k TRL, but if the 595 was almost as good, ya gotta get the 3910. If you do ot love, I will buy it from you. I am that serious.
Trust me, Jay, the C2000ES TRL is much better than their 595 mod. Better dynamics, resolution, detail and naturalness.
They also have started modifying the Toshiba 3960, which shows promise. They say that the video is very good as is the audio. I'll likely sit and wait for the next batch of Marantz SA-11's to hit the docks and have them mod it for me ...
I got my TRL 595 about two months ago, right out of the box i loved every little detail, after it broke in i just couldn't belive how good this little unit sounds. I called up the guys at TRL about a weeks ago, wanting to know if they had anything that was better than the 595, but at the same time staying the same price range. Paul recomended that i buy their sony 2000es, I should be reciving my 2000 shortly, I'll share my thought if it is or isn't better than the 595.
Good question LA45. You should contact Luigi (Gigi) Pugnetti. He may still remember me from grade 8. He truly is a neurologist who has specialized in the application of artificial realities as a rehabilitation tool for the treatment of some real conditions, like MS. Last I checked he was still working at the Don Gnocchi Institute.
Getting in touch with Aloysius Q. Schmaltzenstein Gavronsky for a consultation may be. . . a little more complicated.
Now about my little article on DAC. It's amazing what a little modification of a perfectly good article about Huntinton's Chorea extracted from the Columbia Encyclopedia Online can do!
This has earned two thumbs up!! Hey Guido I did not realize that you are so well versed, outstanding commentary. The only question I have how much will it cost me to mod my audiophile brain? I have a million bucks to spend and don't know what to do with it.
My apologies LKDOG. I was actually wondering if Steve may be possibly suffering of an advanced form of Degenerative Audiophilic Chorea (DAC), which in my view may very well affect most Audiogon inmates, including yours truly of course. Sometimes erroneously referred to as Audiophilia Nervosa by some British audiophiles and unrepenting tweakers, DAC is an extremely debilitating hereditary condition. It was first identified and discussed in 1989 by a team of European neurologysts, audiophiles and tweaks lead by Gavronsky and Pugnetti of the Pio Istituto Don Gnocchi in Milano. See: Aloysius Q. Schmaltzenstein Gavronsky, Dr. Luigi Pugnetti et Al. Environmental triggers and sex-linked predisposition in late onset adventitious Audiophilic Chorea (Acta Medica Refutata, vol 35, No. 4, pp. 435 - 459. Appenzell, 1989). The authors describe DAC as a acute disturbance of the central nervous system, usually having an onset in very early middle age and characterized by involuntary muscular movements, uncontrollable usage of credit cards, increasingly severe and expensive delusions, disastrous lapses of financial common sense, and general progressive cognitive deterioration, accompanied by often mewlings, drewlings and ritualistic genuflection and prostration in front of any gleaming audio component. DAC attacks the cells of the basal ganglia, clusters of nerve tissue deep within the brain that govern coordination, as well as the cortex, which is expected to govern common sense. The onset is insidious and inexorably progressive; no treatment is known. Psychiatric disturbances range from personality changes involving compulsive purchase or modification of audio equipment, in the abscence of which the sufferer experiences apathy and irritability, to manic depressive or schizophreniform episodes when away from one's High-End Audio System for any significant amount of time. Motor manifestations include flicking movements of the upper extremities, hands reaching uncontrollably to one's back pockets towards any credit cards and compulsive signing of any audio-related sales slips, a lilting gait whenever in front of high-end audio stores, and motor impersistence (inability to sustain a motor act such as tongue protrusion), unless ever-more-frequent and progressively expensive and unjustifiable upgrades to the patient's audio system are applied. In 1989 the gene responsible for the disease was located by Schmaltzenstein-Gavronsky and Pugnetti; within that gene a small segment of code is, for some reason, copied over and over. Expert genetic and audio consultant counseling is extremely important, since 50% of the male offspring of an affected parent inherit the gene, which inevitably leads to the disease if the subject is exposed to any high-end system worth of such an appellation. An autosomic recessive form of the disorder likely also exists, but is very rare, according to the scant epidemiological studies of DAC, as far less females than males are affected. The prognosis is rather bleak. Sufferers invariably end their days divorced, in dept, indigent, increasingly semicatatonic, with a silly grin on their faces, while immersed in a permanent REM state, dreaming of evermore extravagant system upgrades.
I mean no real criticism of 711smilin. We have had an ongoing good natured dialogue about his journey and by his own admission he is driving himself crazy and not enjoying himself lately.
By the way, I actually am a licensed mental health professional of 29 years. I think Steve is no more symptomatic than the rest of us. They don't call it Audio Asylum for nothing.
You may wish to take a look at this active thread below again.
All I am saying to him is a suggestion to just stick with his APL and be happy. APL makes nice mods by many accounts. No worries for him-enjoy the tunes.
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