Hi all, I had Solid state all my life until I bought a used integrated tubes amp Cayin a88-T for $1,000 and love it to death, but after few years, now what? I’m Thinking of movng up the chain but not sure where to go. Most of my speakers are bookshelf and small floorstandings. Thanks
sounds like my experience around 20 years ago. I stumbled onto a single-ended pentode, dual monoblock stereo amp, fixed it, and was blown away- after having listened to solid state for 25 years. the difference in coloration and depth with single ended tube stereo is magical, compared to solid state. but watch and see....wait another 20 years, and you'll be happy just plugging into an old Rotel solid state receiver with headphones, and it will sound just fine. it sort of goes full circle as you get older. I bought many fine pieces of vintage stereo components, from older retired guys that switched to Wave radios....they just want to downsize and simplify eventually. having said that, get yourself a pair of nice big floor standing speakers, 3-way with bass reflex port, and nothing less than 15" woofers. 97 efficiency rated or better, and you'll be good to go.
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Thank you @larryi and @trelja Very informative. Enjoy listening |
Terrific advice and perspective from @larryi +++1 |
It is always a pleasure to hear from someone finding something new that they really like, particularly when I share the sentiment. I think that whatever direction you go from here, it will take listening to a wide variety of alternatives because there really is no such thing as a "tube" sound; there is a wide variety of sounds generated by tube gear and the "extremes" in tube gear are much wider apart than the extremes in top end solid state. Tube gear will vary from being very rich and somewhat lacking in "detail" or sharp attack of hard transients or it may be just the opposite and can sound far more brittle and edgy than almost any solid state stuff. It is a matter of finding what you like and what fits your set of components. There is a lot of good advice above about staying with what you have, at least for now, and trying different tubes and certain upgraded parts. My only caveat on the parts is that one should not necessarily expect an "improvement" by dropping in expensive parts--each part has a particular "voice" that may or may not be the direction you want to take. The necessity for experimentation, and the relative ease in swapping parts in most tube gear may either be a source of fun and enjoyment, or extremely frustrating, it depends on your temperament and commitment to the chase. There are several broad areas that should be explored before you focus on a particular area (obsession). If you are not totally committed to a particular set of speakers, the exploration should involve hearing high-powered vs. low-powered tube gear. To me, the difference between a typical high-powered amp and a low-powered amp (under 10 watts) is wide and I like the low-powered stuff enough to accept the extreme limitation on the choice of speakers. There is also the matter of looking into single-ended vs. pushpull amps; I like examples of both, but, there are a lot of people that only like single-ended amps. There is another kind of amp--output transformerless (OTL) that is a MUST hear--they are extremely dynamic and immediate sounding in a way that no other type of amp, solid state or tube, can match. Good luck on the quest. |
Welcome to the bright side.
(Bright because tubes are glowing.)
Some glow more than the other... |
The Cayin a88-T looks nice. My 300B SET: https://goo.gl/YR5bTT full setup: https://goo.gl/y3Ykc4
What are you after SQ, analog tinkering? Do you usually run it in triode mode? I’ve spent a pretty penny on cables and tubes with very subjective results. I haven’t changed any internal electric components but some LED resistors are on the list to turn down their brightness as is a larger cap for increasing the warm up. Big results came by adding a MiniDSP HD for controlling phase and splitting lows to a sub w/ the tubes handling the rest... if you’re going for full analog it may not suit, but dang sound good to me (miniDSP + sub). Also depending on the type of audio you listen to, the 18Hz of your amp may not be deep enough. |
@charles1dad you really make an excellent point on how much of a difference coupling caps provide.
@nasaman I certainly echo Charles’ view on coupling caps. Along those lines, I’d prefer you upgrade to a superior platform first. Then, dial in the tubes and coupling capacitors as time passes.
I’m sure you’re right about that YT video of the Air Tight and B&W bookshelf loudspeakers. Cayin really made some excellent amplifiers. But I believe when you move to something like an Air Tight, Jadis, VAC, etc., you land on a destination piece, and those products will make that apparent to you in short order. In other words, you buy something that’s meaningfully different from the vast majority of what’s out there. Once there, you can maximize performance around that platform.
In terms of reliability, as someone who’s owned a DA60 for more than a decade along with two other integrateds from the company, I can say the Jadis DA60 or DA88S come in about as rugged as anything you’ll find. I had to put mine in order when I bought it, but it provided me a laughably cheap on-ramp to the amplifier. After I fixed it, I’ve never encountered an issue. Like so many tube amplifiers, apart from the chassis and the Jadis transformers they wind themselves, and set them apart, every component on the amplifier is something you can easily source from any of the ubiquitous parts suppliers. And like 99% of tube amplifiers outside of the SET world, it uses the Mullard long-tail pair driver circuit, nothing unusual, difficult to understand, or work through. Finding a tech to get it back on the road should prove no trouble. But I want to say the same thing about the Air Tight and the VAC products, though I believe the latter employs printed circuit boards, which some may consider a bit more "proprietary" in terms of a design than a hardwired product, but still more than workable
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Thanks Lil, I almost thought tube rolling was to hold on top of the tube and swirl them around their feet to get better connection... don’t laugh.
Thanks all, best $1k I ever spent. |
@nasaman, tube rolling is a term used to denote swapping tubes of the same type, equivalent or NOS (new old stock).
For example 6SN7 tube types from different manufacturers: Tung-Sol, RCA, Electro-Harmonix, Sovtek, etc. Ditto with KT-88’s
An equivalent tube type to a 6SN7 would be a 5692 type.
KT-88 equivalent would be 6550.
Experimenting in this way is referred to "tube rolling." |
The A88T is an excellent amp, especially the MK1 version. I bet you'd have to spend many times that $1K to find something significantly better. |
I have a modded Sansui 1000a with 7591 output tubes into altec model 19s and the system is quite special. It puts a smile on my face and is non-fatigueing. Best of all it’s got my 16yr old son and all his friends into tubes. I also have a cayin h80 hybrid running my upstairs system. You’ll have to spend quite a bit more money to upgrade. I would concentrate on new speakers first. Welcome to tubes and enjoy the journey!
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Second the idea of upgrading parts. MIT Multicap RTX are made of tin and styrene, a very neutral combination. Solen makes a good tin and teflon cap, if you are after a bit of brightness. So does Relcap. Nude Vishay resistors are also worth their weight in audio gold. |
@freediver I will have to look up to understand what does rolling tubes mean. I heard about it but I was outside the “circle” so i kinda block it out.
I will put Air Tight ATM-1 on my wish list. Someone posted it on YouTube of it mating with black bookshelf B&W and they sound outstanding. On the other hand, May I ask how’s Jadis’s liability and repair cost? Thanks all |
nasaman I forgot about what is involved in biasing that amp...Start rolling with the small signal tubes,they do not affect bias voltage... |
As usual a thoughtful and informative post from trelja. I have to agree with him in particular regarding Jadis (really good quality output transformers) amplifiers. They are wonderful sounding music reproducing instruments. AirTight is no doubt a fine choice as well.
If keeping the current amplifier you can begin with upgrading to high quality coupling capacitors such as Duelund CAST or Jupiter copper foil. This level of capacitors do make a difference.
Charles |
TUBES RULE! -
May the Force be with you. |
@nasaman I’m glad to hear you found more happiness with tubes.
The Cayin A88T was a very good product, and Steve imported a lot of them. You can certainly do better, but you have to work a bit to ensure you don't just make a sideways move.
I agree with @freediver in that outside of output power on paper, the EL34 outclasses the bigger tubes, sonically.
For me, it’s easier to stick with an integrated tube amplifier, and an obviously more compact solution. I’d suggest finding an Air Tight ATM1, Jadis DA60 or DA88S, or VAC Auricle. While Air Tight calls the ATM1 a power amplifier, its level controls allow you to use it as an integrated provided you don’t mind switching cables to change from one source to another. The Jadis models sound about as good as you can find out there, and also allow you the flexibility to dial in the best sound for you by running ANY EL34 / 6CA7 / KT77 / 6550 / KT88 and maybe even the bigger tubes by simple plug and play. Finally, the VAC Auricle can come with a decent phono stage if you do analog, and don’t have a better external. I predict while you’ll need to have a bit of patience to find one of these, as they come up for sale less often than some other products, you’ll find any of these allow you to easily hear that you took a few steps up the ladder
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@freediver the kt88 tubes were replaced with el-34s by seller and I liked the result. My room is (overly) treated with acoustics foams and panels. Ive been having fun playing with diff power cords and ICs but so affraid on trying diff tubes, bias, rolling etc. I don’t mind keeping the amp for a bit longer.
@teo_audio Who is here familiar with modding the cayin A88-T will h great result? |
First off congrats on finding the light......I'm not a fan of KT88's,great bass but the mids are no where near as lit up as EL34...You could:
Consolidate all speakers to 1 pair of Hi Eff.& go 300B SET or something S.E.Triode Strapped or 300B Push Pull...
Consolidate all speakers to 1 REALLY good pair & try some tube rolling,especially the small signal tubes along with some cable rolling...
Stick with what you have & try tube/cable rolling...
Is the room treated?You will be surprised how much an untreated room affects the tone...Good luck...
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I enjoyed a Jolida 502P for years with a very substantial dual mono balanced blah blah preamp (Kavent S-33 Vincent clone), and those were great together (I've been tube guitar amp user for 5 decades). I started learning more about "single ended" tube amps (one of my newer "boutique" guitar amps is single ended) and happened upon a slightly used Dennis Had Firebottle SEP HO (High Output single ended pentode) on Ebay. A relatively low power amp does limit you to higher sensitivity speakers, so there's that, but my Klipsch Heresy IIIs are 99db so this rig can kick it. I also bought a new Schiit Freya so it's all tubular around here, and I've never looked back...the sound my gear pile is now astonishingly well sorted. |
Have it modded by someone who really knows their stuff.
I took a look at the circuitry of the unit and the design is nicely simple with no real circuit boards.
A prime candidate for easily noticeable qualitative upgrades. Ie, where the work done ---is easily heard.
Mods done? maybe $400 tops.
Upgrade? selling hassle and spend twice the money for little change upward and probably a notable amount of lateral shifting.
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