Tracking modern pop recordings with very loud bass
I run an an LP mastering operation; we use an old Technics SL1200 I got on craigslist for $400.00, for testing to see if our cuts will be playable by a non-audiophile setup. I Installed a Grado Gold in it, and it works really quite well. Watching this video from Grado Labs NYC anyone can recognize even older Technics. This is a turntable to test cartridges at Grado Labs. Here is another example of the cheapest Shure cartridge suspension (extreme test) in slow motion video. That was a $50 cartridge. It will track everything including some shitty warped records with very loud bass. Here is warped as hell record played on another cheap turntable with very cheap cartridge that don’t even skip! I am not talking about quality here, the OP posted some nonsense about bass response and tracking abilities of a phono cartridges. He doubt a phono cartridge can reproduce bass without miss tracking. Even dirt cheap phono cartridge can do that without skipping on very cheap $400 Technics turntable, so you can imagine what a $500 cartridge can do on $1000 tonearm on $1500 turntable? If you experienced miss tracking then your cartridge or your tonearm is junk (or you don’t know how to set up it well). Trying over 60 different carts on 15 different tonearm over the years I can remember only ONE cartridge with terrible tracking abilities, it was low compliance Ortofon SPU, I returned this sample to the shop, I think it was a defective unit. If you want a bad ass bass response you need a 12" inch single, not an LP version. When they cut 12" inch there is one ONE track per side, it can be louder and better, a high modulation require more room on vinyl surface. If you’re looking for a turntable buy yourself brand new $1700 SL1200GR or cheaper $900 mk7 Rega is awful and overpriced turntable in my opinion. |
But can can any good quality vinyl rig track those well? How hard is it and what does it take? Does it take an audiophile vinyl setup to track modern pop recordings like these well? Cost?@ For the most part, 'any good quality' vinyl rig will do the job, depending on what is meant by 'good quality'. I run a Triplanar and I've yet to find anything it can't track effortlessly. People often ask if I'm playing CDs because there simply isn't any distortion (although it is smoother than CDs usually are) and since my preamp is designed with good high frequency overload margins (which isn't hard BTW), my playback tends to be free of ticks and pops. I run an an LP mastering operation; we use an old Technics SL1200 I got on craigslist for $400.00, for testing to see if our cuts will be playable by a non-audiophile setup. I Installed a Grado Gold in it, and it works really quite well. Of course there are a bunch of things you can do to a machine like that- KAB has lots of cool aftermarket parts for it. So if you are on a budget you can make it happen if you are careful. The role of the platter pad should not be overlooked! If it is too soft it will affect the bass, if its too hard the highs will be emphasized. The platter pad should be able to absorb vibration from the LP so that the playback is more neutral. So felt and the like really don't work although they are great for DJs. |
Good to see specific recommendations including table/cart combo. That with tonearm is likely the key based on my experience which is mostly with a bunch of tables from many years ago. I will keep that in mind for when time comes to replace my old but still beautifully functioning Linn Axis. It’s never failed me on any record I own and I own hundreds, some even (gasp) somewhat warped which is tracking's biggest bane in practice, but all older releases mostly from the golden age of vinyl, no new vinyl releases. I had a less expensive Rega Planar table of some sort briefly before the Linn back in the 80s and did not care for the sound, but I never really spent any time to try and get it set up well and that was a long time ago. Warped records were always the biggest problem for me in particular prior to the Linn which never has a problem. You know of course most older records even new were never perfectly flat. I suspect never ones are not either. I suppose one could use a weight or other supplemental gear if needed to address warped records but just neve been an issue with the Linn like prior. |
What are you talking about ? You’d better go to a party to hear some Drum & Bass spinning by your local DJ on vinyl, it will blow you b.....s off. There is nothing but a drums and bass, and it’s on vinyl! An average $50 pro cartridge like Shure M44-7 on $350 Technics SL1200mk2 turntable tracks everything, including some super bass heavy club music recorded and mastered digitally and pressed on vinyl. Even if the music is nothing but shit, technically, it’s not a problem to reproduce deep bass that will shake buildings in the nearest blocks if there is a festival or some rave nearby with sound system that can be dangerous for your health. Asking about "bass" you have to remember club culture and electronic music of the 80’s and 90’s before digital ! If you want to go deeper in details read about special mastering for vinyl and you will find tips about bass (it must be in mono). It make no sense to compare overcompressed digital electronic music to real live music. What they do in electronic music does not exist in real live music. If you want to check the extreme then electronic music is a good example. A proper music can be recorded direct to disk without any problem with tremendous dynamics and instruments like bass guitar or double bass will be real. |
Thanks Atmasphere. That is the kind of relevant response I was hoping for. I guess I have no doubt its possible. But can can any good quality vinyl rig track those well? How hard is it and what does it take? Does it take an audiophile vinyl setup to track modern pop recordings like these well? Cost? Just wondering. Most all my vinyl is old releases, 1980s and older so I don’t have much to go on. I think I still have the old Telarc Firebird vinyl release from teh early days of digital vinyl mastering with the big dynamics that took a very well thought out rig to track. Most standard issue Japanese tables of the days with the S shaped tonearms and popular cartridges of the day could not handle that one. So what is it that makes similar very dynamic digital recordings more digestible to the masses on vinyl these days? Or also say merely loud ones with lots of loud electronic synth bass? Thinking Eminem, etc. Can the average Joe buy a record like that and be successful? Or should they just stick to streaming/digital where tracking a good quality challenging record well is not an issue and leave those records to the audiophiles to tackle? Or do the record makers these days tone it down to make it less problematic for the average Joe? Seems to me the newer one’s taste in music, the less it makes sense to invest in vinyl because most all tend to be much louder in general these days and that includes the bass. At least that’s the case with digital/streaming format. Are newer records mastered to not be as loud? louder means more modulation...more modulation means harder to track. Am I off base there? Off course the nice thing about vinyl is always the nice packaging with a product that you can still own but that has nothing to do with the sound. |
Are there any new vinyl releases like this? Can people’s Record players track it? Or do the producers tone it down when mastering for vinyl.**Of course** it can be tracked on LP! And mastering houses don’t need to hold back. Back in the old days (the 1990s) we had the ’Atma-Sphere Bass of the Year’ listing of recordings, most of which are LP: Vangelis- Conquest of Paradise ST (original vinyl import) Mike Oldfield - Songs of Distant Earth (original vinyl import) Global Communications - Remotion (original vinyl import) Mystical Experiences (vinyl import) Symbiosis- Numinous EP (domestic vinyl) Fields of Nephilim - Zoon (import vinyl) Massive Attack - 100th Window (original import 3LP set 45rpm edition) King Crimson - Islands (original domestic white label) Steven Roach - Early Man (CD only) Infinity Project- Mystical Experiences (original vinyl import) BTW you may have noticed something here- a good number of these recordings are imports. The US labels were actively suppressing vinyl during most of the 1990s so the import was often the only alternative. I imported several titles for resale in this manner- if you have original vinyl of Songs of Distant Earth or the Dances With Wolves soundtrack both from the early 1990s, its likely because I imported it for resale. In the 1990s I first heard Sarah Mclachlan and so imported her Solace LP but it sold out immediately. This was a cause of frustration (it has killer bass on it) and I mentioned this to Michael Hobson of Classic Records at a Stereophile party at CES back about 1995. Only a year later he was putting Sarah McLachlan’s music out on LP. I never thought his version of Solace had the same bass as the original though. He also produced several Peter Gabriel LPs on my suggestion. Peter Gabriel was always good about getting bass in his recordings :) The bottom line is getting good bass on LP is no worries at all! Because for so many years digital sounded bright and because the human ear reacts to tonal balance in a particular way (brightness makes bass sound weak; too much bass makes the highs sound rolled off) If you really wanted to hear what the bass was about you had to get the LP. These days that’s not so much of a problem as digital has improved so much. |
Here’s an example: The Dreamer - Brad Mehldau Mark Guiliana (Mehliana) - Bing video I have this ripped to music server at CD resolution. IS it even available on vinyl? Sound meter shows flat extended bass pulses at around 30 hz or so. I have old vinyl recordings with pipe organ doing similar things but this really sets the rafters to a shakin. Apparently it is available on vinyl: Acoustic Sounds |
30 years ago, the 90s. there was some good BASS heavy stuff then. Not like today but, serious bass.. I have an old Stanly Clark LP it will yank the bass out of anything. My vinyl rig reaches right down there.. The same SACD is pretty good to. I still LOVE that old LP with an MM Grato cart.. Just reaches right down there and makes my Sonys sound brittle, a harsh edge. They are good units ES777 and 9000. But Vinyl, even over RtR right now for me.. BUT I'm workin' on the RtR.. :-) Soon enough Regards |
