^^^^
The oil is real
The spikes are real.
The pneumatic feet are real.
The sand filled base plate is real.
The end objective result for all of this paraphernalia.....is fake,
an illusion, not real, and it is limited only by ones imagination.
For this reason, anyone that holds "rigid" to certain principles in this Illusion of a hobby, lives, IMO, inside a box, with defined borders.
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Geoffkat, I have oil + spike isolation in my Kuzma and pneumatic
feet isolation under my Technics SP 10 with Obsidian plinth. In addition to mentioned Kuzma isolation I have sand filled base plate which is isolated with 3 spikes from the rack. Which one would you
call ''real'' ?
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Have you guys ever seen Halcro’s photos of the interior of his Halcro preamplifier? Something like that in black.
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Huh? What the ding dong? 😳 When I use the word isolation I’m referring to the only real kind of isolation. If you’re still unsure what I mean let’s see a show of hands.
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The ''compounds similar to paint'' as well ''the isolation'' will not do.
There are many kinds of isolations as well many kinds of paint.
Problem of notions without boundary conditions are the same as
sets theoretic problem of extension. ''Set of all sets '' is example of
paradoxes in the set theory. One need to somehow determine what
one is talking about, Otherwise quantifier ''all '' can imply the whole
universe + the added parallel one.
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Essentially the problem is that the tonearm and cartridge are designed to have resonant frequencies Fr around 8-12 HZ (well below the lowest speaker frequencies) which ARE in the range of *very low frequency* seismic type vibration coming from the floor. So, that structural vibration can excite the natural frequencies Fr of the tonearm and cartridge. Sadly, damping techniques are not very successful for these *very low frequencies*. If they were LIGO wouldn’t have had to wait 20 years for the development of sufficiently good isolation techniques to observe gravity waves, they could have used damping techniques. But isolating the turntable from seismic forces is very effective, especially when the Fr of the isolating system is 3 Hz or lower. |
Wis the connection between religions and hobbies?
I think ''belief'' .
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Not sure what is best for your turntable but in my experience you can get great results putting the tonearm on a tower separated from the platter/plinth. In fact I have the motor, flywheel, platter/plinth, & tonearm tower all separate. Each "component" sits on Isoachostic feet. The flywheel, platter/plinth, & tonearm tower are on the same platform, while the motor is on a separate platform.
Do you mean toneam pod ? Who made them for you ? Images maybe @boxer12 ? |
The flywheel, platter/plinth, & tonearm tower are on the same platform, while the motor is on a separate platform. Well done @boxer 🤗 Would love to know your System....? |
Not sure what is best for your turntable but in my experience you can get great results putting the tonearm on a tower separated from the platter/plinth. In fact I have the motor, flywheel, platter/plinth, & tonearm tower all separate. Each "component" sits on Isoachostic feet. The flywheel, platter/plinth, & tonearm tower are on the same platform, while the motor is on a separate platform. |
nandric, fo.Q tape is a piezoelectric vibration damping tape that works great on turntables, tone arms, and speakers. Very effective. Regarding platter mass, and materials, the differences are obvious and easy to hear. My Miller Carbon turntable is based on the Teres Audio platter and bearing. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 The design of this table allows the platter to be lifted off and swapped out very easily. Designer Chris Brady made four different platters, all identical except for construction and materials. The platters were solid acrylic, acrylic with lead shot, a solid synthetic material, and lead shot loaded Cocobolo. Chris did a demo playing the same music on each of the four platters. It was easy- and impressive- to hear the improvement from each to the next. Platter mass definitely does improve dynamics, drive, and bass extension and slam. Going to a stiffer more highly damped material is even better. Each and every one of these changes affects the sound. Try the tape. Its cheap. You'll be surprised how well it works. |
Dear @atmasphere : You are rigth and I know it because I used and use somerthing similar in my big loudspeakers. This is what you can read in my Agon virtual system:
"""
LOUDSPEAKERS.
ADS L 2030: This is a Full Range Professional Monitor that I own for many years.
These L 2030 was designed by Mike Kelly ( Aerial speakers ) and till today it match all my priorities.
It is " heavy " tweaked to do that: first it has " three hands " ( internally ) of a insulation/antivibrational treatment ( like a white paint. I can't remember the ingredients. ) from Acoustical Magic Company ( it works marvelous ) inside all the box ( a big one box: 58-5/8" ( H ) x 27-1/4" (W) x 13-1/8" (D) ). """#
Well, I use it too in the Denon/Technics platters and Denon's metal chasis.
Regards and enjouy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Once you isolate the turntable all that damping stuff is passé. The isolation is a two way system. 🔛 |
There are anti-vibration extensional compounds that are applied similar to paint.
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Dear Lew, You made me again speechless. Heavy paint? |
For the record, Nikola, I have never replaced or modified the platter on my Lenco. Along with the motor and idler wheel, the platter is OEM. I am in fact skeptical of those who have doubled up on the platter, using two original platters, one on top of the other. And I am not even aware of anyone who makes a candidate aftermarket platter for a Lenco idler. And finally, I don’t approve of doing any of those things, because I think the drive system was designed and conceived to drive the platter as is. Altering the mass might not be a very good idea. So, perhaps at sometime in the past, which I don’t remember at all, we may have had a disagreement having something to do with a Lenco, but it could not have been regarding my desire to replace or alter the platter. Without consulting anyone here ever, I did do one thing: I had the platter professionally painted in a vibration reducing paint. And then I placed 4 large O-rings around the circumference to dampen the purported tendency of the platter to ring. I got that idea from Win Tinnon, the guy who makes the Saskia.
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Dear ct, one can express the same thought with different words.
So persistence on ''exactly used words'' will not do ; meaning
can't be nailed to specific words. Otherwise our memory would be
the same as by computers.
Also the valuation of expression ''cheap'' may differ among
nations. The English saying is: ''I am not rich to bay cheap stuff''.
My own is the usual understanding of this word. I as you deed
not emigrated from former Yugoslavia to the West for ''cheap
things''. On the contrary (grin). Check my carts collection!
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@nandric
Nikola.
I never used the words "cheap TT's". You did, and it changes the meaning.
To the idler fan (the subject of this thread is about an idler); there is "hidden" "intrinsic" value in what is acquired for this small sum of money .....if.
that person has the means to transport the "mechanical's", into another "body" (plinth).
Idlers bring unique challenges to Audiophile projects.
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Dear ct, with your ''cheap TT's argument'' you are actually strengthening my which was ''don't mess with TT's''. This
than should be ''don't mess with cheap TT's''.
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Yes, while Mark and I have taken significantly different paths in our designs, we both agree on the fundamentals. We just approached them from different perspectives. |
I echo Lewm's comments re the Helix TTs.
Mark Doehmann's design is innovative and unique. Way cool. I have heard them a number of times and they are exceptional.
I have also met Mark twice. He is totally open to sharing his extensive knowledge about TTs and the industry in general. A true gentleman. THIS 👍 |
I echo Lewm's comments re the Helix TTs.
Mark Doehmann's design is innovative and unique. Way cool. I have heard them a number of times and they are exceptional.
I have also met Mark twice. He is totally open to sharing his extensive knowledge about TTs and the industry in general. A true gentleman.
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I came across Triangleart TT and was impressed by the design and looks.
has completely separate armpods..
it’s a belt drive
What do you all think about the Osiris tonearm? Suspended by a magnet. That great concept.. |
@fsonicsmith , No. I did not say that my TT was perfect. Goodbye, Mr. Smith. |
@terry9; "offend" is not the appropriate word choice here. .
I simply felt your post was a bit strong and worthy of comment.
I will never challenge someone's love of their own table no matter how humble it might be.
But when someone claims that their deck is perfect, my ears perk up.
You took pains to claim that with the help of three people you had achieved perfection.
Halcro by the way obviously has far more experience than I do and I have a feeling you quoted him out of context.
I don't claim to have superior knowledge to anyone here.
In fact, I know that I have less than many.
But I do have some opinions that are only worth your 2 sense if you happen to agree with me and I don't mind those that disagree as long as the basis for the disagreement is rational.
This is a topic that particularly interests me and I have some first-hand experience with it.
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^^^^
It's very easy to mess with a used turntable that cost a couple hundred dollars to acquire.
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Dear ct, my first dispute in this forum was with Lew and regarding
Lenco platter. I was sceptical about possibilty to make a better one
in someone's garage or cellar. But my point was ''don't mess with
your TT''. His answer was : ''Nandric messing with TT's is fun''.
I was ''speechless'' .
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@fsonicsmith , sorry to offend you. I was merely attempting to contribute to the discussion by suggesting that these desired characteristics could be obtained without (much) compromise, in part by finessing the problem, and partly by choice of materials. On re-reading my post, I realize that I was imprecise. I could cure this, but it might be tedious. Incidentally, baltic birch is a poor substitute for panzerholz. Ask me how I know.
@atmasphere , my imprecision obviously bothered you as well. I was trying to express the idea that an air bearing could be made silent, and so finesse the problem of transmitting platter bearing noise to the tonearm. I agree about a rigid coupling, which is incorporated into the design. |
Nandric
Those who intend to build an new plinth for their TT's are in different
position from those who want to keep their TT as is. @nandric Nikola With these old idlers, (Garrard/Lenco's, etc...) like the OP of this thread is considering rebuilding ... everyone I know .......from the past, current, and I presume anyone on this AudioGon site, is not using this turntable type (idler)........ as is. Buyers initially seek out the motor/platter system. And....even then...... many folks, as in the case of the Jean Nantais Lenco version I ended up with; have replaced or significantly modified the platter, top plate, put in a new idler wheel, Spindle, thrust pad, bearing, etc..... The finished tables people discuss on these audio sites bear very little resemblance to the originals. |
I agree with @halcro , it is essential to isolate the tonearm from the platter bearing and the motor. This opens the turntable to colorations. Apparently Thorens has this sorted out: The idea if I understood Greg correctly is that everything vibrating is concert is better than vibrating out of synch.
This is why the tonearm must be rigidly coupled to the platter bearing, and hopefully the surface of the platter as a result. |
Outboard belt drive with a flywheel allows excellent isolation of the motor. I say, "Let’s have it all !"
Actually, a huge "THANK YOU" to all three of the above, who guided me to the above design. Also to the late Tom Fletcher. I certainly could not have done it without you
I don’t mean to pick a fight, but your post is self-congratulatory, don’t you think? There are those who would argue-correctly imho-that there is no such thing as perfect vinyl playback and not one option provides "it all", particularly any design that is belt drive. As between idler, dd, and belt, belt is the worst in terms of speed stability and musical propulsiveness/dynamics. This explains why VPI plays around with using not just one, but two, and even three belts. This explains why some belt drive designers incorporate dental floss or non-stretch thread to drive the platter rather than a rubber belt. The very same material that decouples the motor through elasticity and vibration absorption-rubber-introduces other sins that are arguably worse. I agree with @halcro , it is essential to isolate the tonearm from the platter bearing and the motor.
Among TD124 cognoscenti, this is a subject of debate. According to Greg Metz of STS who studied the TD124 in Switzerland under an original engineer involved in the design of that iconic table, coupling to and not isolating the tonearm from the bearing/motor is essential to the design. This is why the TD124 chassis encircles the armboard mount and the armboard is to be tightly screwed down to the cast iron chassis-the same chassis upon which the platter bearing and motor are mounted. The idea if I understood Greg correctly is that everything vibrating is concert is better than vibrating out of synch. The same school of TD124 experts state that a minimal mass plinth-really nothing more than a frame-similar to the stock base is best for the very same reason-a heavy solid plinth decouples the motor from the tonearm and would be the reverse what was contemplated by the engineers for best possible sound. So I am only saying that there are no absolutes. It all depends upon the design. And yes, many people rave about the sound of their TD124’s mounted in slate and other high mass plinths. But how do we know that they have done valid comparisons? How do we know they are not judging based upon their eyeballs rather than being unbiased? The stock hollow framed base for the TD124 sure does not appear nearly as impressive as a huge hunk of slate, granite, or solid birch ply. IMHO, even the sorely missed Art Dudley got things wrong on his TD124 in this regard. He made an assumption and not an empirical decision as to what is best for the TD124. I say all of this because I used to have a heavy birch ply plinth for my hot-rodded restored TD124 and now have a hollow framed base not too dissimilar from what came stock back in 1959 (see pic in my profile of my present TD124 set-up). |
Fantastic input from all the members. Challenging each other but I am learning a lot at the same time. I am still thinking of how to handle this.. |
Actually, a huge "THANK YOU" to all three of the above, who guided me to the above design. Also to the late Tom Fletcher. I certainly could not have done it without you. |
I agree with @halcro , it is essential to isolate the tonearm from the platter bearing and the motor.
I also agree with @atmasphere , it is essential to have the tonearm rigidly connected to the platter bearing.
I also agree with @lewm , bolt the tonearm to the plinth if possible, but compromise as necessary.
There is a material which is highly rigid, on the same order as aluminum plate, which is also very highly damped. That material is panzerholz. I built my platter board out of panzerholz and glued a layer of carbon composite to the top for further rigidity and constrained layer damping. Then I bolted my tonearm to the platter board.
Bearing is all air - high pressure amorphous carbon bearings in three dimensions. Bearing is grounded by offset steel columns connected through panzerholz blocks from (slate) tabletop to platter board. Platter bearing noise is nil.
Outboard belt drive with a flywheel allows excellent isolation of the motor. I say, "Let's have it all !"
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The OP in this thread, is asking about an idler.
@kanchi647
The idlers are one of the crudest, oldest form of turntable, and with them comes.....(based on my personal direct experiences)
The most vibrations, least isolation, the most noise.
That's what you are dealing with.
For these reasons I would recommend you try a design that works to eliminate those three (at least) design symptoms.
If you look above, I said pretty much the same thing. But "crude" does not equal "inferior". Take the first ten vehicles featured here
https://www.townandcountrymag.com/leisure/sporting/news/g2165/best-vintage-cars/Each and every one is "crude" by today's standards and yet they are-imho-more desirable and more "worthy" than anything available today at any price. You can argue all you want that a top Tesla is far more "precise" (think "accurate") but where will your Tesla be in ten years. Likely in a scrap heap. As crude as they may be, idlers are built to last and capable of giving incredible amounts of joy and pleasurable reproduction of music in the home. They possess a color, more-so than top direct drives, but I would rather have the slight color they provide. |
Halcro, if your arguments are good, it’s really not necessary to be insulting.
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Those who intend to build an new plinth for their TT's are in different
position from those who want to keep their TT as is. My Kuzm Stabi
Reference accept only 9'' tonearms. Triplanar can be mounted
because the arm(wand) is on the side of the VTA tower allowing
for longer lengt. I wanted an second arm and was forced to use
an armpod + 12'' arm. I ordered both by Reed. My Kuzma and
armpod rest on aan sand filled base resting on 3 spikes
in an professional rack ( German ''Copulare'') . I have no idea
what ''optimal solution'' means but am satisfy with the situatiom
''as is''.
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The OP in this thread, is asking about an idler. @kanchi647 The idlers are one of the crudest, oldest form of turntable, and with them comes.....(based on my personal direct experiences) The most vibrations, least isolation, the most noise. That's what you are dealing with. For these reasons I would recommend you try a design that works to eliminate those three (at least) design symptoms. When done well they (idlers) can be quite good. I own a Jean Nantais Lenco that contains reference level (Parts) see my virtual system. His design was called the best turntable by blogger A. Salvatore at one time. His armboard design specific to your thread question, has gone to great extent to reduce the symptoms mentioned above. To give you and others reading an idea of how far he goes; here is a picture of mine showing the extent he goes to....to reduce vibrations, noise and provide for isolation. https://photos.app.goo.gl/MdYZd7sBGJ1cCHyC8Similar cavities exist under the motor. Even with these huge cavities, it still weighs 100 lbs. |
Amateur? Hmm. I would point you to this post..... OMA (Oswalds Mill Audio) Debuts K3 Direct Drive Turntable—An AnalogPlanet Exclusive
Michael Fremer | Feb 28, 2020 |
Keeping the two parts still relative to each other isn’t easy. Perhaps not....... But certainly not impossible 🤗 |
By the way, smart guys (Atma-sphere, Richard, and Mark) can differ in opinion, which does not make the persons on the other side of the argument "amateurs". Please don't ask me to explain the difference between 'Professional' and 'Amateur' in relation to turntables @lewm ......🧐 |
There is an interesting conundrum at play here.
I quoted Einstein quite deliberately.
”Does the Station stop at this Train?
Looking at this another way, if the Station and Train are rigidly coupled together AND moving. A passenger in the train looking at the station will observe no movement.
The challenge for the TT designer is to keep the relative positions of the platter and arm board constant under dynamic conditions. Does it matter if they are moving about provided they are rigidly coupled.? Obviously yes if this movement is large or violent because the acceleration will impact the arm and cartridge. But what happens if the movement is small and benign?
Keeping the two parts still relative to each other isn’t easy. There is a YouTube video posted by Peter of Soundsmith where he quotes an Ortofon engineer who states that movement of 0.005 micron can be traced by a cartridge.
This tiny amount is almost beyond comprehension.
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Sorry Halcro, you fail to understand that both can be true. Duuuh.....🤪 You surely don't imagine for a second @dover that I could be advocating for an armboard to be 'moving' in relation to the platter....? As you rightly surmise.... Dohmann claims to provide BOTH isolation AND positional stability. But what he emphasises is the importance of 'isolating' the tonearm from the both the BEARING and MOTOR. As @lewm states above... A very heavy outboard arm pod that sits on the same support structure as the plinth itself is probably an acceptable compromise as far as coupling. What irks me mostly is the declaration of FAKE facts.... Here is the engineering principle that MUST be observed when designing a plinth for a turntable:
The plinth must be as rigid and as acoustically dead (damped) as possible. The mounting of the platter bearing in the plinth will be thus coupled as rigidly as possible to the mounting of the tonearm. Such dogma is anathema to our intriguing and not fully-understood hobby....🤗 |
That’s the advice you get from ’amateurs’....🤪
HERE is the ’reality’ from Mark Doehmann, responsible for the designs of the Continuum Caliburn and Criterion turntables as well as his own Doehmann Helix 1 and Helix 2 turntables.....all of which are carefully designed with the tonearm mounting bases ISOLATED from the bearing and plinth 👍 Sorry Halcro, you fail to understand that both can be true. Here is the brief from Dohmann... The new ’table retains a somewhat simplified version of the unique "floating" armboard technology originally found in Mark Döhmann’s earlier designs, which physically isolates the board while maintaining (it is claimed) positional stability. So Dohmann claims to provide BOTH isolation AND postitional stability. I have not personally deconstructed the Dohmann but I understand that it uses a series of interlocking plates and composite materials to provide both isolation and maintain positional stability of the arm relative to the platter. We are after all trying to measure a micro groove with the stylus - the stylus mounted on the armboard, the groove is mounted on the platter. Any lack of rigidity between the platter and armboard will result in inaccurate measurment of the record groove. Its that simple. If you want to perform an experiment - try measuring the height of your house whilst bouncing on a trampoline - you could post a video on you tube with and without the trampoline and we can then give you some feedback. |
I've heard the Doehmann Helix in a system with which I am very familiar. It indeed seems to be a fabulous turntable, perhaps the best belt-drive I have ever heard. My friend has since sold it because he needs to downsize and decided to go all digital. I could have bought it for a "nice" price, but even the nice price was a bit much for my blood. As to the independent mounting of the tonearm, I don't recall that it was evident. How did he make it look integrated with the turntable and yet isolate it? By the way, smart guys (Atma-sphere, Richard, and Mark) can differ in opinion, which does not make the persons on the other side of the argument "amateurs". If you wanted to make a list of competent designers who line up on one side or the other of this particular proposition, I daresay the "couplers" might have a larger contingent. But you and I have been over this before, and I have no beef with your preference, nor do I wish to argue about it all over again. Peace.
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The mounting of the platter bearing in the plinth will be thus coupled as rigidly as possible to the mounting of the tonearm. If it is not, any vibration at all can be interpreted by the pickup (arm and cartridge) as a coloration. That's the advice you get from 'amateurs'....🤪 HERE is the 'reality' from Mark Doehmann, responsible for the designs of the Continuum Caliburn and Criterion turntables as well as his own Doehmann Helix 1 and Helix 2 turntables.....all of which are carefully designed with the tonearm mounting bases ISOLATED from the bearing and plinth 👍 |
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Thanks for all the information.
I am considering a direct mount tonearm.
is there a sonic difference between Reed 3p and 2a
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I think that it was Einstein that said “Does the Station stop at this Train”
Now I know that I’m stretching the point a little but as Atmasphere said, to paraphrase..Relative movement between the arm mount and the platter is a bad thing. We can have them both move in sync, within reason.
If you agree with this principle, the arm mounting design options are narrowed considerably.
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When I was building slate plinths for various of my turntables, I adopted the practice of not creating any tonearm mounting boards or accommodating for them. I therefore had to limit myself to surface mount tonearms, like Chakster says. These included the Triplanar, Reed, Dynavector DV505 and maybe a few more that I don't own. I bolt the tonearm directly to the plinth. Nothing moves. I am not saying this is the best way to go; it certainly is not the most convenient nor the most flexible, but I think it adheres best to the principle of coupling the tonearm pivot to the platter and bearing. For highest flexibility to use any arm any time, an outboard platform would seem best, if you're being pragmatic above all else. A very heavy outboard arm pod that sits on the same support structure as the plinth itself is probably an acceptable compromise as far as coupling.
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