Dear Henry, Many of us were to slow to grasp what Herr
Professor was talking about. But when we got this German
'Acha Erlebnis' many of us started with 'surgury' study.
It is now called 'cutting' and 'screwing' depending on the
stylus holder type. But putting ,say, the stylus from an
AT 13 EA in the stylus holder of your beloved AT 155
CL give us some sardonic kind of pleasure. My advice
when purchasing second hand carts: ask for the macro-
scopic pictures of the stylus. |
Dear Halcro,
the "taking to the limits" process includes also sideways, not necessarily the most efficient ones. To be honest who among us looking for different combinations did not end up with a failure or a mismatch sometime?
So what? Yes! Definitely yes! we were not born with the best sounding system bought by our parents. Experimentation gets along with good and bad results. But this is the way how to find out what is worth going for and what you wanna keep in your system or not.
Before I concentrated on improving my system in my listening room (btw also learning that it is different experimenting in a big or small room) I went to some audiophiles listening to their system always returning that they only wanted to hear "everything is fine". I also learned that the ones who are the most critical are the most sensitive when talking about their system or special units.
From this point on I decided not running around and not trusting any sales or marketing promises nor advices from so called church apostles or gurus rather exchanging opinions among real friends. I just had a funny experience when the publisher of a German Audio Magazine recommended a certain CD player (quite a new and very expensive one) to me. It was a friendly recommendation of the kind, just listen to it. My reply was: Bring it to me, we listen to it in my system and we will see whether it will beat the existing four digital systems or not. So far I got no answer.
In some matters it took me longer reaching my aim, e.g. idlers. I had some in my system and do know what the difference is, also with belt driven and direct driven tables. I know that some guys do not like idlers, maybe beause they got in touch with inferior or not very well matched combinations. Some otheres swear on the idlers' characteristics. On other topics I succeeded pretty fast and was absolutely happy with the outcome, e.g. R2R or some vintage tonearms - and I am still very happy with those ones.
I think that all depends on one's taste and the challenge you are going for - and of course the kind of investment (in time and spending) you are willing to sacrifice to multiple installations. And yes in some way - as Sunnyboy1956 (btw a very good year) indicated- it is a matter of how crazy or barking mad we allow ourselves to become. |
And when a 8k cartridge is absolutely inferior in comparison to a 2k cartridge, then there are only 2 ways: To deny that, or to think about that. This is what I also found. When a 21st century $4,000 or $5,000 or $10,000 dollar LOMC is outperformed by a 20th century $1,500 LOMC......I shake my head. And when a 30 year old vintage MM cartridge can be better than ALL of them.....I simply wonder at the gullibility of audiophiles world-wide. There are fortunately, some amongst us....like the Professor (Timeltel)....who has the knowledge to 'philosophically' INVENT a new cartridge? A 'Franken-cartridge' whereby he takes the body of a vintage MM like the AT-13Ea....and by modifying the stylus assembly of the AT-155Lc....he melds the two together to produce a cartridge for a few hundred dollars which just sounds amazing! Yet so few will ever hear one? |
Dear Thuchan, why are we talking about limiting? The word limit itself is something I do very hard in most life environments. Maybe better: Take it to the limit... vroom! You know.....I think you're right! :-) |
A question for Syntax.....
Do you think that your ability to decide on the one turntable, arm. cartridge and phono-stage perfect for you.....had anything to do with having several turntables and many arms and cartridges in your own system to compare? Yes and No At the beginning I had the typical review winner System, I was proud being a modern Audiophile. But short after that I met a record collector who demoed me his system and I was totally confused. His was different from hardware and was sounding light years better. So we started talking and he taught me what is responsible for what.... The next big step was in the following 10 years when I travelled a lot to listen to Audiophiles privately, here I learned the most, what I would like to have or to try, and what not. Later it was narrowed with Audiophiles who also had 2 turntables, 2 identical Arms, carts....and we made the comparisons and when you do it right, you have to be honest to you, there is a big difference between "I like it" and "That Design is better"... But no matter what I made, there always was that question mark of "Is that Arm/cart I don't have better than that I have?" Well, I always try to understand what a unit can do. There are no wonders from outer space. It is brain. Nothing else. And some Designers are better than others. Marketing can hide that very successfully but my own comparisons showed me that week for week. And when a 8k cartridge is absolutely inferior in comparison to a 2k cartridge, then there are only 2 ways: To deny that, or to think about that. (Sorry, there is a 3. way: I spend so much money and that one has to be better and honestly, I don't care anyway) After all those years I asked me at the end of each month "With what units did you listen the most time? AND WHY?" I found the answers. And the final question was "Why should I spend my time listening to something which is not as good as the other stuff I have?" My time of doing nothing, sitting in a sofa, looking into the nothing between 2 speakers is the most valuable time I can waste. I want to do the best with it. |
Wrm 57, We need clear answers not riddles. Say: the limits
of my bank account for example. |
Limits? In the words of William Blake: "the bounded is loathed by its possessor."
And besides, "you never know what is enough until you know what is more than enough." |
Sonnyboy, I thought in the same way and wrote accordingly.
So you either missed my post or you don't like my humor.
I hope the first mentioned possibility was the case. However
I also omitted the contributions from some Mexican. |
Halcro, unfortunately my car is an 11 years old Honda CRV and my major transportation mode is walking as it only take me 15 minutes by foot to get to work but in Bangkok traffic, it may take me up to 30-45 minutes by car to go the same distance. I use on average about 1 tank of gas a month in my car so a good car is a big waste on me :(
I think the cost of my TW and Reed 3Q/FR-66s, Air Tight and Lyra costs quite a bit more than current market value of my car by quite a bit! Not sure if that is a good or bad thing.
I never had a chance to hear vintage Grotrian but had a chance to play on a few vintage Erard and Pleyel that were kept in excellent condition. I am sure it must be wonderful.
I would say current Grotrian upright is still one of the best up there with current production piano. A few years ago, I was in Geneva and visited few piano stores that had a few Grotrian uprights, Bluthner, Sauter and C. Bechstein among others and I had a lot of fun trying them all out and thanks to the piano stores that were generous enough to let me try them even though they knew that I was not looking to buy a new piano at that time.
Back to original topic, I think I need at the very least 2 arms and 2 cartridges though, one stereo and one mono! |
Dear Halcro,
why are we talking about limiting? The word limit itself is something I do very hard in most life environments. Maybe better: Take it to the limit... vroom! |
Sunnyboy1956,
fun is upgreadable! try it :-) |
A question for Syntax.....
Do you think that your ability to decide on the one turntable, arm. cartridge and phono-stage perfect for you.....had anything to do with having several turntables and many arms and cartridges in your own system to compare? |
I thought this was about fun....and the many roads that can get you there. From the dogged empiricism of our Mexican friend where even an inch misalignment of your posterior at 80db on your favorite listening chair can mean missing the holy grail, to the endless variety of numerous carts and arms coupled with an aural acuity that can summon either Lorin Manzel or Claudio Abbado in attendance with the Chicago or whatever symphony at a venue of your choosing , to the Teutonic effluence of some and its implicit condescension....IMHO we take ourselves too seriously and crave acceptance for our idiosyncrasies .
One, two or more, carts, arms and TTs, how does it matter, so long as you can delude yourself and your better half that you think you are having fun...
Relax and Njoy |
Suteetat, My Model 120 was a Grotrian Steinweg from the 1920s (voted the greatest upright ever made) and was indeed a beautiful sounding instrument. I seems indeed that we have much in common. Now tell me that you drive a 1963 Porsche 356 like this and we'll be blood brothers? :-) |
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Halcro, I see, so we both have TW, FR66s in common and now Grotrian as well! I have a Grotrian 192 in standard gloss piano black. Grotrian make some of the best upright pianos that I have ever tried and when I came across an excellent offer for 192, I just could not pass it up. |
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The purist: 'I own just one TT, one tonearm and one cart but those are the best there are'. We know the type from the high school. They were only interested in the most beautiful girl at school and nobody else. No wonder they had a miserable youth.
The (big) spender:' Why I own so many turntables, arms and carts? I would own even more if I could afford'.
The rest: 'All the excuses I mentioned I invented for my wife already.' |
If I were limited to only one arm.....I too would choose the FR-66s.
A better arm for low-compliance LOMC cartridges I have never heard.
And it is also nearly as good with high-compliance MM/MI cartridges.
However...the Continuum Copperhead is slightly better with MMs whilst the SAEC WE-8000/ST can also be amazing with some MMs.
Having read your passionate descriptions of the Lyras (particularly the Titan i and Olympos)...and also seeing your collection of FR-7 cartridges.....you must forgive me for being sceptical about your intent to "start some ads"?
Can you post some more shots of the Apolyt turntable Syntax?
This one looks very impressive? |
I only have one, a Grotrian. I had the legendary Grotrian Model 120 in matt black. A fine choice of piano Suteetat.....if you are 'limited' to one? :-) |
Dear Raul, I supposed one day when I find a combination of cartridge/tonearm/table that is superior to everything else that listening to other combination does not derive any pleasure anymore, I will be down to one setup only as well.
At this moment, I would say Lyra Atlas is overall the best cartridge I have so far but not much better than Air Tight or Koetsu in every way and I still enjoy listening to those 2 cartridges very much as well. Could I live with just the Lyra, sure but why should I deprive myself of Air Tight or Koetsu when logistically it is still easy to keep both of them around. I made a compromised when I bought my piano. I only have one, a Grotrian. If I have a big house and a lot more money, I would not mind having a Steingraeber, Fazioli or Bosendorfer as well since they all sound different, very different feel and touch when you play them but since I only have room for one, Grotrian it is. I would not mind having a Maggie 20.7 or Martin Logan CLX just for variety but logistically I cannot have them so I settle for one pair of speakers only.
Luckily I have enough room for a few turntables, arms and cartridges so until I find the ONE, I'll settle for the few that I have :) |
the world of an audiophile with many tables/arms/carts/SUTs/phono PREs looks a bit confusing on a first glance. Looking at one's own audiophile history it is an up and down, looking for special combinations - like I did when searching the right partner for my Neumann DST 62 (from the cart to the tonearm...), enlarging the collection to 18 tonearms for a while and also "Reducing to the Max" to now 12 really necessary tonearms! It will change in a week when a new design will arrive at my house.
Most of my designs are vintage or old school designs, some are Mono only with really good pure (old, not recycled copper with perfect isolations - which makes a difference when you are offered some), four arms are rewired by Ikeda silver litz.
Is it worth doing so? I think YES! I am enjoying, also testing many combinations in situ, not listening at many different occasions with different systems. I prefer testing units in my own world but also exchanging ideas with some well experienced friends, also in front of my system. It provides me with some insights. I have learned you need to exchange with good personalities, not with the many big bang guys who have listened everywhere telling stories from their memories. Neverheless everyone should find his way and enjoy multiple combinations.
The biggest problem is space. And you need it for using many tables etc. The next problem is you need dedicated lines. If a system becomes too complex you may loose quality. I am using now two lines with two special preamps running to my amps. Also the different phono stages should be integrated properly. This is quite a unique adventure and you don't need them all at one time. I for myself could not live with one phono pre only.
In the end one may raise the question whether the testing will come to an end one day? I guess not. Maybe some of the favourites may survive. And for sure the units will become less one day. I just decided separating from one of my most dedicated tables as well as of a very rare R2R.
Testing doesn't mean listening to one record all the time. I know people who are running around with a set of three test records looking for the least distorted place on earth. This is not my world. I am enjoying quite a good collection of Jazz and Rock vinyl pressings. Multiple analogue tools do support my listening experience. That's all... |
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He only has to sell 2 of his 3 turntables, 2 of his 3 phono-stages, 2 of his 3 amps, 2 of his 3 arms plus his 2 extra armwands and 7 of his 8 cartridges? Yes, right. For about 8 months now I am down to 1 Table, more or less 1 Arm (FR-66s, I don't want sell the 64s, that Arm beat all others incl. the last survivor, Graham Phantom supreme which is sold now), more or less to 2 cartridges (Ikeda & Helikon mono), Omnigon Pre (but that was a custom made order, can't be compared to regular units) and modified ML2.1. The other stuff is in boxes, in a way I am too lazy to sell, but who knows, sooner or later I will start some ads... |
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However, I want to listen to great music and sometimes, some of those recordings may benefit from slightly different coloration/presentation by different setup.. When we will follow that idea we have to look into the Past, too. Most ratings from the top records (printed in books) Decca/London, Living Stereo, Mercury were written in the early 90's. And with what combination? Mainly with Linn LP12, a highly colored table, with real weak abilities in the higher and lower frequencies, a midrange pusher. When we think about those ratings seriously we have to say (or I say that) nearly all ratings need to be rewritten because some ratings in Recording, Reproduction, Soundstage, color of tone have serious different results today. Don't get me wrong, a top record is still a top record but a lot with 12/10/14 rating from max. 20/20/20 are seriously better than that. On the other side, vinyl today from a digital mixing desk, without any naturalness, do you need a 30k Phonostage, 10k cart for that? I don't think so, the only goal is maybe finding something which doesn't make you cry and that's it. But that is my opinion about. |
I don't believe any of us who enjoys multiple turntables/arms/cartridges has equated that with 'audiophilia'.....nor has any of them here, proclaimed this peccadillo as a means to 'superior sound'? The only one who has brought this into discussion is Syntax who I think is being slightly self deprecating if you view his published 'system'? To reach the Nirvana of : The most impressive Systems I listened to in the last 15 years He only has to sell 2 of his 3 turntables, 2 of his 3 phono-stages, 2 of his 3 amps, 2 of his 3 arms plus his 2 extra armwands and 7 of his 8 cartridges? Perhaps that is what he meant by I am working on it still... :-) |
I don't know what an audiophile is supposed to be. In an ideal world where all recordings are made equal and there are no evil or incompetent recording label/studio/engineer, all recordings are made with absolute transparency and fidelity, honest to the musician's sound, then I could see myself with single source, single system that is totally transparent and have absolutely no sonic signature of its own and let the recordings do all the speaking and singing!
Unfortunately I am not in that world. There are some recordings that will sound great in absolutely transparent system. On the other hand, there are some great music on recordings that will just rear its ugly head when you expose it ruthlessly. I don't know of any cartridge/arm/table combination that can ruthlesly reveal all the glory of well made record but at the same time, forgiving the less than perfect recording that are great music wise. Some recording can benefit from a little bit more warmth, has piercing treble that can benefit from a bit more roll off top. Some are so good that you don't want any coloration from the equipment to interfere.
I suppose, if I only care about the sound, I can just toss the bad recordings away and end up listening to a few selected sonic spectacular recording through my single source system. However, I want to listen to great music and sometimes, some of those recordings may benefit from slightly different coloration/presentation by different setup. |
I'm always surprised and mildly amused by those who seem to define it as a mission to find the one truth. Glad to have been of service, if only mildly! |
Dear Syntax, This is rather an very sceptical few. Besides I don't believe that we all mean the same with the general expression 'audiophile'. It may mean whatever one like. I am not sure if I am 'deep in (the) records' but well sure that my 'background knowledge' is not impressive. Should I then give up this hobby according to you? I see that you yourself also think not to satisfy those conditions which you mentioned so do you intend to give up this hobby as well? As far as I know it is only possible for one single Catholic to become the pope. So we know in advance that some of the others may become cardinals at best. But if there is no such thing as 'the best cart' or 'the best' whatever how should we know who is the 'best analogist'? I see you are (still) working on this ... We hope to hear from you when you think that you are 'there'. |
The idea of permanently maintaining multiple arms and cartridges (or preamps, or...) isn't even remotely tempting. Why or when would I ever choose to listen to the inferior ones? Comparing different flavors of distortion really doesn't interest me.
I suppose I'm not a true audiophile. :-( Audiophiles want to talk about Audio, not about Music.... or there is another sentence "The difference between Men and Boys is the price of their Toys" Anyway, everyone has his own preferences and priorities, musical emotion can be also served via MP3 or Car Radio, the human brain works different. Interestingly, EVERYONE is able to detect good sound even with totally unknown hardware, you can see that in High End Shows. The remarkable time frame is a few seconds later when everyone tries to rate something for himself (...too big, too expensive, too cheap, ugly, too black, too shiny or whatever) this is an individual decision. When you ask a group of listeners after that demo, you will hardly find a common opinion, 4 audiophiles, 5 opinions... Analog is in a way pure precision and knowledge, some Designers made a better product than others because they know the way of what-is-responsible-for-what.... does that mean, after a while you can find the one and only solution? No. But you can narrow it when you understand what you hear, then the rest of your System is made for that anyway. The most impressive Systems I listened to in the last 15 years (about 5) were different, some with Electrostats, Horns, Dynamic speakers, some with tube amps, Transistor amps, various turntables, Arms and cartridges ... but in a way they all had something in common: The owners were deep in records, they all had an impressive background knowledge and all their components were done right in a way ....Independent from price. Thanks for the reminder, when I go back to those situations, all had 1 Table, 1 Cart, 1 Arm, 1 Phonostage....I am working on it still... |
Dear Henry, I didn't yet, which is why you haven't yet. No excuses for me. |
Greetings Professor (Timeltel), Who would be so bold as to state the reproduction of recorded music in the home is exclusively a scientific demonstration, or that it is solely an expression of art? Not I :-) |
Dear Nikola,
Of course you are right.
Of the 30+ cartridges I own......my 'favourites' rise to the top and there is little play time for those 'lesser' samples.
So....like you.....I will sell off eventually, many of those which add little to my appreciation of my vinyl collection.
That will still leave me with over a dozen or so wonderful, wonderful cartridges.
And think of the extended life given to the styli when their playtimes are evenly distributed? :-) |
I view my multiple tables, tonearms, cartridges like Kurosowa viewed reality in Rashamon: a matter of perspective, each one compelling on its own terms. Part of the fun is working with the various combinations until they realize their own coherency, they're own flawed perfection, their own best character. Then they speak on their own terms and I'm convinced by their narratives. So beautifully put Wrm57. I think the mistake is to believe that there is one 'right' presentation to audio? As Suteetat so aptly points out........there is no one 'right' presentation to 'live' music? I would like the ability to switch in a valve preamp and/or amp to replace the solid state ones in my system from time to time? I would like the ability to move in some electrostatic speakers or horns from time to time to replace my dynamic ones? But these substitutions are rather impractical for me and many others I presume? The differences in 'presentation' these substitutions make on the same source material.......lead to an enlightenment or deeper appreciation of the possibilities in this wonderful hobby of ours. With but one cartridge and tonearm......we must accept the benefits and beauty but at the same time....the limitations and deficiencies. Much as we do with our wives or partners :-) A collection of cartridges may be somewhat analogous to keeping a harem? |
Regards, Halcro (Suteetat, nicely written):
If it is accepted that taste is developed and sustained through exposure to a variety of musical forms or presentations, then it might subsequently be proposed that taste is an integral element in the selection of both composition and supporting gear. If objective evaluation can define value, it might also be said the consequence is an exclusivist mentality and a rigid hierarchy of the acceptable. Some would find such a definition of rewarding experience unnecessarily restrictive. Others maintain that if what is heard does not reflect the intent of the composer then the result is an artificial construct, a facsimile and thereby of diminished value.
This may be seen as a failure to reproduce technically accurate aspects of audible response or, contrarily, an openness to a variety of experience as desired by the particular expectations of the individual. Who would be so bold as to state the reproduction of recorded music in the home is exclusively a scientific demonstration, or that it is solely an expression of art?
There are those who are to be admired for developing their systems to the apex of refinement, listeners who exhibit a marvelous degree of discrimination. Others, of acknowledged (or self-proclaimed) discernment, might choose from the menu of available cartridges a variety of presentational aspects.
If familiarity with a number of carts illustrates the qualities of each, the differences either subtle or bold, and assuming an acceptable level of performance of each, then friend Henry, I'm happy to join you in enjoying a smorgasbord of carts.
Cliff's Notes: There are favorite carts, of which I wish to continue to enjoy an appreciation of their particular qualities.
Peace, |
Multiple tables, arms, cartridges, is like when you go to live classical performance, should it be at Musikverien, Carnegie hall, Boston Symphony hall? Which orchestra, Berlin, Vienna, NY, Chicago etc etc, which conductor?
You could try to search for one absolutely best combination for all things. However, my feeling is that one absolutely best combination is unlikely to be absolutely best at everything. Each hall, each orchestra, each conductor has their own acoustic, their own characteristic. One may be better at certain thing in absolute term but it does mean that other does not have anything good or interesting to contribute. It is not as fruitful to have multiple digital sources but I think top notch analogue front end can offer equally valid but rather different presentation so why not have a few! |
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Wrm57, I like your analogy. From now on I will think of entering my sound room as passing through the Rashomon Gate. |
Dear Doug, Your conclusion ( ''I'm not a true audiophile'') does not follow from any of your statements. You are what I called 'selector'. The most of us have limited means and need to be very careful with our choices. So we select those components which we consider to be better and (re) sell those which are lesser. Reselling some of our gear in order to buy some other is the only way possible in such circumstances. But this is at the same time the only way to improve our system. That is how a true audiophile acts I would think. |
Why or when would I ever choose to listen to the inferior ones? Different presentations, different perspectives, equally valid and not necessarily inferior. Audio, especially vinyl audio, is an exercise in aesthetics, not epistemology. I'm always surprised and mildly amused by those who seem to define it as a mission to find the one truth. I view my multiple tables, tonearms, cartridges like Kurosowa viewed reality in Rashamon: a matter of perspective, each one compelling on its own terms. Part of the fun is working with the various combinations until they realize their own coherency, they're own flawed perfection, their own best character. Then they speak on their own terms and I'm convinced by their narratives. |
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Assuming one has limited resources, as I do, isn't it likely that one thoughtfully chosen component will provide more musical pleasure (however one defines that) than two or more (necessarily) compromised components?
I audition different components when I have the opportunity. If I hear one that's an upgrade I acquire it when I can afford to. Typically, I'll sell the existing component to help fund the new one.
The idea of permanently maintaining multiple arms and cartridges (or preamps, or...) isn't even remotely tempting. Why or when would I ever choose to listen to the inferior ones? Comparing different flavors of distortion really doesn't interest me.
I suppose I'm not a true audiophile. :-(
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Dear Henry, There are collectors and 'selectors' of carts. I belong to the last category. There is no way to know a priori how a cart we just bought will perform. The attractive aspect of the MM carts is their price which make it possible to inspect and test many of them. To do the same with the MC carts is probably only possible for the rich among us. You own 30 + carts and ditto headshells. This is confusing to me because I thought that you are 'selective' reg. carts of both kinds. This should imply a ranking by which the primary differentiation is between 'better'- and 'lesser' one. The case in my case is that I never listen to the 'lesser one' after I made my ranking. 'Why should I?' is my point. So my guess is that you become collector while starting as selector?
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Hi Lew,
Have you mounted your FR-64s tonearm yet?
I don't remember hearing your opinion? |
Hi Omsed,
Care to reveal the cartridge and arm you've selected?
I'm most interested.... |
Which one I use is random. Do you select them blind-folded? :-) |
I need to confess that the only carts which are 'promoted' from the bedroom to the living room are LOMC's. I hope you can forgive me such a kind of deviation ? Dear Nikola, Of course you're forgiven :-) I still enjoy the Dyna XV-1s and the Fidelity Research FR-7f and the ZYX UNIverse on both my tables in a multitude of arms. There's just something that MM cartridges like the Signet TK-7LCa, the AT13Ea/155Lc Mongrel that the Professor(Timeltel) invented and the Garrott P77/JicoSAS do that no LOMC cartridge I have heard can match? |
