For me, a two arm table allows for casual/"other room" listening (Ortofon VMS30 mkii on Signet XK50), saving wear on the main arm and costlier cartridge. With 5 spare VMS styli, it's quite cost-effective. The vintage cart/arm performs well enough to be the mainstay if circumstances required.
To those with multiple tables/arms/cartridges
How do you 'play' your system?
For 30 years I had only one turntable, one arm and one cartridge......and it never entered my mind that there was an alternative?
After upgrading my turntable nearly 5 years ago to a Raven AC-3 which allowed easy mounting of up to four tonearms......I decided to add two arms.
RAVEN
A few years later I became interested in Direct Drive turntables and purchased a vintage 30 year old Victor/JVC TT-81 followed shortly after by the top-of-the-line TT-101 and I designed and had cast 3 solid bronze armpods which I had lacquered in gloss black.
TT-101
By this time I had over 30 cartridges (both LOMCs and MMs) all mounted in their own headshells for easy interchange.
STORAGE
Every day I listen to vinyl for 3-4 hours and might play with one cartridge on one arm on one table for this whole day or even two or three days.
I then might decide to change to a different arm and cartridge on a the same table or perhaps the other.....and listen to the last side I had just heard on the previous play.
I am invariably thrilled and excited by the small differences in presentation I am able to hear....and I perhaps listen to this combination for the next few days before again lusting after a particular arm or cartridge change?
Is this the way most of you with multiple cartridges/arms listen?......or are there other intentions involved?
For 30 years I had only one turntable, one arm and one cartridge......and it never entered my mind that there was an alternative?
After upgrading my turntable nearly 5 years ago to a Raven AC-3 which allowed easy mounting of up to four tonearms......I decided to add two arms.
RAVEN
A few years later I became interested in Direct Drive turntables and purchased a vintage 30 year old Victor/JVC TT-81 followed shortly after by the top-of-the-line TT-101 and I designed and had cast 3 solid bronze armpods which I had lacquered in gloss black.
TT-101
By this time I had over 30 cartridges (both LOMCs and MMs) all mounted in their own headshells for easy interchange.
STORAGE
Every day I listen to vinyl for 3-4 hours and might play with one cartridge on one arm on one table for this whole day or even two or three days.
I then might decide to change to a different arm and cartridge on a the same table or perhaps the other.....and listen to the last side I had just heard on the previous play.
I am invariably thrilled and excited by the small differences in presentation I am able to hear....and I perhaps listen to this combination for the next few days before again lusting after a particular arm or cartridge change?
Is this the way most of you with multiple cartridges/arms listen?......or are there other intentions involved?
168 responses Add your response
Last night I was running my P+E 2040 with Shure V15 type 11 going through some of my Motown LP's. The sound of some is not worth putting the time on my $1000. cartridge for.Lets face it some records just don't sound good no matter what.I use the secondary table with removable headshell to listen to lower sound quality LP's in my collection I would otherwise dismiss on my main table.There's enough of it to hold my attention with quick cartridge swaps.The Temptations greatest hits was pretty mediocre listening but had some redeeming elements. |
Regarding carts I am usually confronted with the MC camp or the MM group, maybe some rare MI lovers. Why are we not able to use them all? okay this again needs going for more than one table/tonarm set up. I know audio friends using one table with arms for MMs, one for MCs and one for MIs. Should I admit that sometimes I belong to this species too? Anything wrong with this? |
Dear Lew, There is a thread about Jasmine LP 2 with many reports reg. individual impressions. There is even the consensus about the performance- price relation. But my upgrade with those Jantzen Z caps 'moved' the pre in a different league. Not in the league of the Basis Exclusive but the price diference is shameless huge in my opinion. I of course know that Raul owns much more carts than I do but we both have the same 24 hours a day to our disposal. So I certainly don't envy the Mexican considering my own confusion with all those that I own. I am sure that you will recognize this time problem because you probably own even less than I but because of your lack of time you was not even able to test those that you own. However I do envy you with those Beveridges. Glad to hear btw that you are satisfy with your 'youth work' with those Kef bass drivers. |
Dear Nandric, Good choice! I have been interested in the Jasmine as well, but I have a predilection for vintage equipment, as you may have guessed. There is a lot of positive buzz regarding the Jasmine, nevertheless. I imagine it is very good. So I read the remainder of your last post carefully, where you analogized my basement to your bedroom, but I do not see where you've made any comment on the sound quality from the Jasmine. For example, how does it compare to your expensive German solid state phono stage? I have a feeling that Raul has more cartridges than you, by an exponential amount. |
Dear Lew, While you was studying 'vintage phono stages' I bought an, uh, modern Chinese Jasmine LP 2 phono-pre for $500. I even upgraded the (MKP) caps with Jantzen Z caps. There is alas no basement in my apartment so I installed my second system in my bedroom. There I test all my carts with the comfort of an chair in front of my SP10 and FR-64S. Well this testing become an addiction such that I spend day and night in my bedroom. I could, by way of speaking, rent my living room together with my main system and earn some extra money for some extra carts and tonearms. If I remember well the original idea was to select the carts in the second system for the main system which is alas not very 'friendly' reg. changing carts. Two tonearms with fast headshells + this damn Basis Exclusive which need to be pulled out of the rack and opened for any cart change. At my age and my sensitive back ( the chair!) not a very attractive proposition. Besides I nearly forget how this system works...Your philosopher D. Davidson wrote about intentions in generaland even about 'intending' in particular but this was not of much help. I ever emigrated from my beloved Serbia with the intention to become rich in the West... So much about intentions. Still my newest one is to sell all those damn MM carts , move to my living room and start again to listen to the music before I become an second Mexican. |
Dear Nandric, too old to rock'n roll, to young to... ? sometimes one needs to jump. in your case you may get a good SUT from someone. Just give it a try. Don?t believe the Schaefers of this world. They have good intentions within their own world. I do understand and accept this. It may not block us from other experiments. Don't say No, No, No. Philosophically there are always many ways but running in circles is no achievement. Got motivated? Good. :-) |
Lewm, I thought I had passed the voodoo units but when I tried the small acoustic system resonators some years ago I got really puzzled about their impacts. I heard about the Stein products when I attended the RMAF. My friend in Atlanta took them with him, had some problems when he tried entering the plane on the return trip from Denver. He loves them. So it should be something all about it. Maybe we need giving it a try. |
Dear Henry, Funny you should use that phrase, "cooking with gas". There was an audio show in my area this weekend, the "Capital Audio Fest". I attended all day on Saturday. There I saw a device heretofore unknown to me, the Stein "Harmonizer". The Harmonizer is a little black box, maybe 4 to 6 inches on a side, that is mounted on a long slender pole about 4 feet off the ground. Supposedly, the Harmonizer improves the room sound by moving air molecules (aka,"gas"). The idea being that keeping the air molecules in motion makes the work of the speaker easier, static vs dynamic friction is invoked. The astute audiophile is advised to buy as many as three pair of these to "treat" the room. One pair = ~$2000!!! These things are made in Germany. Nandric and Thuchan, do you know anything about this product? IF the thesis made any sense, which I am not sure it does, why not use a couple of whisper fans strategically placed, or a couple of small point source heaters. Both will do the job of moving air molecules. Further, I can see no way in which the Harmonizer can move air molecules; there are no apertures in the black box through which air might pass in order to be motivated. I must be missing something. The fact that Stein also sells "Magic Stones" does not reduce my level of incredulity. |
Nandric, I have been studying "vintage" phono stages for the last few months. By "vintage" I refer to units designed and built from the 70s to the 90s, not the real old pre-1970 units that by now need rebuilding. This is because I am so enamored of the Beveridges that I am now constructing a "second system" in my basement around them, but I don't want to spend a lot of money. Anyway, there are many fine full function preamplifiers from that era that do provide an MM input, or two or three, and these inputs frequently do provide for adjustable loading of MMs. Also, there is not much new under the sun in phono stage design, so many of these units are quite good sounding. I just bought a mint condition Quicksilver preamp AND a Klyne 6LX/P. I am going to compare them and keep the one I like best, but right now the Quicksilver is driving the Beveridges and sounds great. For well under US$1000 or about 700 Euros you can get a very nice MM phono stage. I may have mentioned my decades old home-made Transmission Line woofer cabinets here before. They utilize KEF B139 woofers. I got them running this weekend to provide low bass for the Bevs, and, after much experimentation with positioning, they really work very very well. So I got a subwoofer system for zero dollars. I had been about to throw out the cabinets on several occasions in the past, pre-Beveridge. |
Dear Nikola, I too was scared about the 'complexity' and 'matching' issues that I had read about regarding SUTs.......but Thuchan advised me to just "try" :-) You know I also have 3 LOMCs (actually 4...I have 2 UNIverses)......the Dyna XV-1s, the ZYX and the FR-7f/Lc and each one is different to the other......however they ALL matched perfectly with the Kondo KSL SF-Z and Halcro MM Phonostage. If you have a chance for a home trial of one.......I'd strongly advise it. However....the fact that Herr Scheafer is not 'strong' on MMs leads me to think that his MM Phonostage is possibly not good enough......and that may well be the reason you are not hearing the best sounds from yours? |
Dear Henry, I am still suspect and threated as such by the moderators. No idea why but I am original from the Eastern bloc and begin to recognize some precarious development in the West but, alas , it is to late to emigrate back. I already posted my contribution about the SUT's yesterday but my post was obviously suspect ... So in short. I am scared by the complexity of SUT-carts matching and also own 'some' (8)LOMC's which make possible so many combinations that I prefer not to mess with them. For some unknown reasons Herr Scheafer (ASR owner) has not much with MM carts. My previous Basis (2009) had to my big surprise no MM input at all so i was forced to buy the new 'Golden one' from 2010 which is provided with the MM input but no adjustment possibility of any kind. So my Basis is better suited for the MC carts while I myself still prefer those above any MM cart that I own (about 25,sic!) The 'sic!' means that I am crazy and this means that there is no sense in asking me why I own so many MM carts. |
Dear Thuchan, I see the usual Arche headshell on your ToXiom ( why not ToHiom?) and assume consequently the so called SME standard headshell. But because of different wands weight as well the peculiar angle for the headshell(s)the lateral balance can be different for different wands. This is usual by the the 'J' shape tonearms. The 'magnet support' for the 'vertical balance' may mean the dynamic balance. As far as I know Dertonarm was always supporter of the dynamic balanced tonearms. |
Agree, Toho is really nice, especially when two advanced technologies come together in the ToXiom arrangement, old and modern. I had some time playing around with the many options and versatility the Axiom design offers. Because of the different weights of my Toho tubes and the special geometry of the headshell design I needed more and some different lateral weights made of aluminum, steel, brass and wolfram. It looks to me quite sophisticated. Now I have to learn about the magnets' support of the vertical balance - seems to me a new feature which I have not seen so far. Testing goes on... |
Lewm, Toto is also a gambling platform in Germany where you can vote on soccer games. While I was in Japan I learned that Toto is not only producing toilets but a variety of sanitair products, also High End...A really interesting company but maybe not as fascinating as Toho and Micro Seiki. So better go for Tohos. The Toho stand for armboards I can recommend very much, but it is not easy to find; very massive, coming with different hole inlays for different arm sockets. |
Unoear, I made up the whole story about 'associtation' for you but you obviouly missed the clue. I associate the handkerchif with the womens behind because I always think about those. You obviously always think about Dertonarm. That is why you ovelooked the fact that I am the malicious leader of the German group with 3 bank accounts in Swizerland.Because of Onasis I never trusted the Greek... but I always loved those cuckoo clocks. |
Ah, thanks Nandy for confirming that Dertoneless, Syntax, and Thuchan are all together in business, a collaboration, ummmm. So, which one of these fellows is in charge of the tens of thousands of refunds that are due from their misdeeds? Hah, I believe that there is humor with this new thing is called TOXIC. Yes, fellow audiophiles, watch out for their self-promoting...yes, please send us your cash...what, our product is defective...what, even our product is nonexistent...what, all of you paid for a book, thank you, but, I am not going to publish....super, no refunds, we will keep your money and just make new products to promote...yes, please send your money...Syntax and Thuchan loves to promote this Dertoneless and his ongoing charade. Audiophiles, beware... Cheers! |
Dear Lew, Toho, Toto and Beveridge are obviously all unique. So who would be not interested to hear more about them? But I am wondering when the Beveridge will move upstairs? To be honest I am skeptical about those woofers you made 40 years ago with Kef B 139. You can get them 'up and running' but I would prefer modern subs with fast (25cm) bass drivers and fast amps. It is not easy to keep up with those 'stats'. |
Japan in my opinion produces the world's finest toilets: Toto is the brand. I guess there is no relationship between Toto and Toho. Nandric, This is way OT, but I am enthralled with the Beveridges. And they are set up in my basement where my wife says she cannot even hear the music whilst she is trying to get to sleep on the second floor of our home. (My musical curfew is typically around 11:30 PM in the upstairs system, which is just one floor below our bedroom.) This means I can listen to music all night long. I bought a cheap preamplifier with a phono stage so I can have vinyl in the Bev system. When I get the woofers up and running, it should be even better. |
Dear Lew, The modesty may hinder Thuchan to answer your question. 'ToXion' is a product of collaboration between Dertonarm and Thuchan. Thuchan bought in Japan 6 beautiful wooden (arm) wands and needed a special tonearm to accomodate them. Dertonarm just finished his Axiom tonearm and was obviously willing to accomodate Thuchan. Those wooden wands are called 'Toho' so both names together make a toxic (?)combo. |
I have always used an active MM and MC stage (all built-in) with my separate preamps and have read in the Forums and magazines about the Pros and Cons of using SUTs for LOMC cartridges instead. Usually......there are just so many varying results and opinions and it all seemed to be specific-cartridge dependent.....so my impressions were that SUTs were generally not worth the effort unless you really knew what you were doing? Recently......a friend (who had heard my system)....lent me the Kondo KSL SF-Z SUT for a try-out. The results were truly astonishing with my 3 LOMCs (Dynavector XV-1s, Fidelity Research FR-7f/Lc and ZYX UNIverse) all sounding purer, richer, more transparent and ultimately more enjoyable than directly through the Halcro DM10 Active LOMC Input. It's no secret that I have preferred the sounds of high-compliance MM cartridges in my system over the last few years.......but this will now force some new 'play-offs' over the coming weeks. Oh......and I bought the Kondo from my friend. He has 'golden' ears :-) |
Thuchan is a very special 'collector' of all things 'audio'.....but particularly analogue and specifically tonearms and cartridges. He has acquired a full series of Toho armtubes and has had a special Axiom tonearm made to accommodate these arm-tubes. This is really a one-off design which no other person in the world will be able to replicate. So no-one will be able to argue with Thuchan that he doesn't have the very best? But then again......on-one will be able to say very much at all? :-) Except that.....he is one very lucky audiophile! |
To my understanding and hopefully I have learned my lessons we do concentrate very much on the front end while the basics behind the system (power supplies - oh yes it can make a difference, power distribution, fuses, matching parameters between preamp/amp/ speakers) are of some importance in a good system. How much difference does it make when changing a tonearm to the better, or a cartridge, while the back end misses a good standard. I know some might argue that isolation platforms, speed control, matching of tonearm and cart (compliance) are even more important. of course this is also a crucial workplace. Nevertheless how often did I experience in my High End life that people are not aware what they are missing or just have no idea what it could change in their system. Usually the first reaction is blocking all advisory or consulting hints. Maybe it will also lead to aggression or other kind of lousy behaviour just trying to solve their cognitive dissonance. This is understandable and a certain kind of protection, also not investing too much money in some kind of voodoo toys they might think. Oh yes, sometimes I start thinking that we were born to reach a level and then defending it for all the time. Are these good perspectives...? |
Henry, The particular FM station I tuned into plays classical music only. At that time of night, they have a female disc jockey who has been doing the late shows for decades. I have heard her voice on many many different speakers and in many different systems. When she came on the air in between musical pieces to announce the time, the news, or what music was coming next, it was almost eerie; she seemed to be sitting no more than 6 feet away from me. (I know this is a tired audio cliche', but it does apply.) I could sense the resonance of her body as she spoke. That Beveridge guy was clearly a genius of sorts (maybe not an "Einstein" but a genius nevertheless); there is much about the speakers that is totally unique, even including the way the ESL panels work, which is fundamentally different from all the other successful commercial ones. The diaphragms do not carry a high DC bias voltage, which may be why my speakers still work so well after 34 years. (Built in 1979.) |
Although I tend to take a purist approach to audio. (No tone controls, minimal switches and connectors, etc, etc.) I have lately come to believe that some of these gospel truths can be occasionally violated with no important negative consequences. Nandric, In the US, students are typically graded on a scale of A to F, where F = Failure. An "A" student would be in the very top category. Case in point re violating gospel: The other night I set up my pair of Beveridge 2SW speakers, which I have owned for more than a year but which I had never heard, because I sent the direct-drive amplifiers off for check-up and upgrades the minute I uncrated them. Just got them back after 8 months. All I had on hand in my basement as a signal source was an old tuner, the preamp section of an old solid state NAD integrated amplifier, and some ancient "give-away"-quality RCA interconnects. Also, no woofer to complement the Bevs below 80Hz. (The 2SW has a built in 12db/octave x-over at 80Hz; you need a woofer/subwoofer.) Nevertheless, I hooked the tuner up to the NAD preamp and the preamp to the Bev direct-drive amplifiers which sit in the bases of the speakers, set the tuner for a local FM high quality classical music station, and fired up the Bevs for the first time. After about 15 minutes of warm-up, the sound was absolutely glorious. I was riveted to the spot for two hours, or until 1 AM, when I finally had to get some sleep. This to me was a demonstration of the primacy of the transducer. All the other gear is merely seasoning on top of what the speaker can do. If the speaker is second rate, no amount of audio jewelry or switch avoidance can overcome that. If the speaker is of high quality, you almost cannot miss. |
Dear Henry, the most important fact in our hobby is what one self believes. The other may believe, for example, that those thin gold platings on the connectors wear off even from looking at them. But the theory that they get better by each put in /put out exertion is remarcable. How often do you need to change all the connectors involved? |
Dear Lewm, i tried both ways, a switch with relais (Manley switch) and the silverswitch of Dertonearm. While the Manley is a really good design I stayed with the UNIswitch. Of course you always have a degrading when putting units in between the lines but this unit keeps the qality in a very satisfactoy way. Another option is going for the EMT JPA-66 with four tonearm connections (one MM, three with inbuild SUTs) and two line connections. This is in my eyes the most versatile and best sounding tube phono pre, also and especially regarding MMs. |
Dear Lew, Thanks for your explantion . I at last understand what the problem with the 'simple switch' is. I thought that those 3-4 cm extra wire for a second input would cause no problem of any kind. But I am glad that I noticed this 'peculiarity' of the Einstein pre and asked about. An error of $10000 is different from one of, say, $1000. However I don't understand what you mean with 'A' student. Except of course if you mean the 'A' of A ndric. |
Dear Nandric, I have to agree with Einstein who is in this case at least an "A" student. Putting a simple switch at the output of the tonearms will inevitably degrade the sound of both cartridges, because the signal voltage is so low in magnitude at that juncture, and because even very good switches have some micro-reactance. However, it may be possible to achieve switching by the clever use of relays such that the switch is not in the signal path, maybe. But that's why the multi-phono-input phono stages we've been discussing do have separate discrete RIAA stages for each pair of inputs. Once the cartridge output is amplified and equalized, it is less damaging to switch it. But I confess, I installed a switch in my MP1, so I can change the cartridge load resistance from 100R to 1000R to 47K. I choose to believe I can hear no problem from that. |
Dear Henry, That is exactly what the 'Einstein who is not Einstein' suggested to me as 'solution' to my problem: plug in one cable in the (same)inpunt, then unplug this one and plug the other one instead. My idea was that an single switch for the other input would solve the problem. Not so according to the designer of the (balanced) Einstein phono stage. This switch will cause the worsening of the performance according to the designer. I have no idea about the truth in this situation but I solved my problem by purchasing the Basis Exclusive with two separate phono-pres and consequently two separate inputs for my two tonearms. |
Dear Henry, That is exactly what the 'Einstein who is not Einstein' suggested to me as 'solution' to my problem: plug in one cable in the (same)inpunt, then unplug this one and plug the other one instead. My idea was that an single switch for the other input would solve the problem. Not so according to the designer of the (balanced) Einstein phono stage. This switch will cause the worsening of the performance according to the designer. I have no idea about the truth in this situation but I solved my problem by purchasing the Basis Exclusive with two separate phono-pres and consequently two separate inputs for my two tonearms. |
Halcro, I can see you as part of a pit crew in a Grand Prix race, changing a tire in "less than 30 seconds". So far, I do the same; I plug and unplug, altho I do have two phono stages, one inside the Atma MP1 for LOMC (and also for LOMM, the Stanton 980LZS) and one in the form of a modified Silvaweld SWH550, for MM/MI. Usually, I have 3 tonearms in play at any given moment. But one can dream of a multi-input, infinitely switchable phono stage, can't one? The DSA Phono II and the others mentioned here do exist. I've gotta say I have a silly bias against the Manley Steelhead, only because it uses 12AX7s and I think also 12AU7s, of which I am not very fond. I just thought of another such candidate, the EAR 324. Does anyone have experience with that? |
Well you're all spoilt little 'girls'......... I have 6 arms on 2 turntables with all their phono-cables (colour-coded) lying behind my phono-stage. To unplug the cables from one arm and plug in those of another takes all of 15 seconds. Flick a switch for MM/MC.....another switch for 3 stages of gain.....adjust loading and capacitance for MM only.......and I'm set in less than 30 seconds :-) |
Dear Lew, It may help when we know what we are talking about. I have no pretention whatever to explain anything about 'input connections' of any kind. I was wondering about this 'wonderful 4 input switcher' because this was somehow contradictory to what 'Einstein who is not Einstein' told me when I asked for only one more on those 'cylinders', which btw cost about $10000 together. Your advice to buy two more and solve this way my problem caused my association with Rockefeller as well with my dad's peculiar way to haggle with farmers on the market. BTW those '50 cent per kilo' are not invented but were the true price of tomadoes then. Why my dad thought that for such a price one need to belong to the Rockefeller family is an anigma for me and probably for others. But, as Henry already noticed, this Nandric like to tell stories. |
Dear Lew, It may help when we know what we are talking about. I have no pretention whatever to explain anything about 'input connections' of any kind. I was wondering about this 'wonderful 4 input switcher' because this was somehow contradictory to what 'Einstein who is not Einstein' told me when I asked for only one more on those 'cylinders', which btw cost about $10000 together. Your advice to buy two more and solve this way my problem caused my association with Rockefeller as well with my dad's peculiar way to haggle with farmers on the market. BTW those '50 cent per kilo' are not invented but the were the true price of tomadoes then. Why my dad thought tha for such a price one need to belong to the Rockefeller family is an anigma for me and probably for others. But, as Henry olready noticed, this Nandric like to tell stories. |
OK, I am no Einstein, and neither of us is a Rockefeller. So is there some other model made by Einstein that supports two phono inputs without buying 2 or 4 cylinders? (Do you need four cylinders to do two tonearms in SE mode? Four cylinders could do two tonearms in balanced mode, unless indeed each cylinder can only do one channel in SE mode. Perhaps that is the point I am missing.) |
