@thom_mackris
I’ve tried Stevenson for victor ua-7045 on luxman pd444 and it sounds great (no matter LPs or 45s). First cartridge was AT-ML170 OFC mounted at AT technihard shell (at-lh13). The little twist is hardly visible, but i’ve done so to set it up in dead accuracy by Dr.Feickert.
Now i have Victor X1 with Grace HS-6 headshell on the same arm. I use Baerwald, but i sill have to twist the cartridge in headshell even more.
I think Victor UA-7045 was designed with Stevenson alignment in mind, correct me if i’m wrond.
My Reed 3p was designed with Baerwald alignment in mind and this is what i use with Feickert. With Pioneer PC-1000 mk2 the sound is fantastic. I love this cartridge even more now.
Long before i get Dr.Feickert i used protractor from Hi-Fi News Analogue Test LP (they call it Linear Offset technique.) It’s Baerwald and works fine for "12 inch tonearms, there are no errors when i use both now to doubleckeck the accuracy of the old one compared to new.
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Hi Chakster,
I'm with Raul - that if this concerns you, that you should experiment. Even Lew stated that he felt uncomfortable about generalizing his resonance experiment across other tonearms.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier Design
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Something just occurred to me: Is the offset angle required for Stevenson much more acute than that which is required for Lofgren and Baerwald? I think it’s the opposite, because of the aforementioned need to twist the cartridge inward on a Stevenson tonearm aligned for L or B. This would mean that there is more skating force at the null points with these latter two geometries, compared to Stevenson. That would be a point in favor of Stevenson. Just a thought. I’m not sure, but I believe so (Stevenson = more acute). Last night, I looked a bit more deeply into the Elison spreadsheet. The values for cells F3 and G3 are looked up in columns W & X. I believe you need to generate a set of Stevenson figures for these two columns. My Excel chops are a bit rusty, but this much is apparent. If anyone knows the answer to this, I'd appreciate it. It might be time to contact John. Darn you Lew! ... I have so much on my plate and yet this topic is really gnawing at me ;-) Cheers, Thom @ Galibier Design |
Dear @jtimothya : It's not M.Fremer or any other reviewer or tonearm designer whom started to " discuss " about, no.
All kind of alignments ( even personal ones. ) equations calculations ( Löfgen was the first one. ) shows three main set up parameters:
overhang, offset angle and two null points. These is inherent on all kind of alignments.
Why those two null points, other that tell us that there the pivoted tonearm cross tangentialy with "cero " tracking error?
Well, those null points define three LP surface areas where in each one exist ( normally ) diferent distortion levels. Where those null points been calculated define the distortion levels at those 3 LP surface areas : the area before the first null point, the area in between both null points and the area after the second null point. That's it.
Rgards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Something just occurred to me: Is the offset angle required for Stevenson much more acute than that which is required for Lofgren and Baerwald? I think it's the opposite, because of the aforementioned need to twist the cartridge inward on a Stevenson tonearm aligned for L or B. This would mean that there is more skating force at the null points with these latter two geometries, compared to Stevenson. That would be a point in favor of Stevenson. Just a thought.
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Hi Lew,
I get that Stevenson has a significantly higher offset angle difference from (for example) Baerwaald than Baerwald does to Loefgren. Re-reading my earlier post, I didn't make that clear.
I'll file this away for future experimentation, but know that my preference for Baerwaald over Stevenson is such that the effect you've observed would have to be significant to drive me to revert to Stevenson on such an arm.
Is it possible? Sure, and I'm always ready for a surprise.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier Design
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Btw, in that test overall process I have too a " fast track " alternative that I use with all cartridges I'm listening for the first time and if through it the cartridge performance is a promising one then I follow with the whole process.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear @cousinbillyl : """
Stop obsessing, you can't get it perfect, at least not for every album. """
Agree, we can't get it perfect. I was at the Doug place and I know that he really is " obssesed " with each LP and hee does " easy " but is him.
All of us have our each personal whole test/set-up process. I have mine that I try to " perfect " over the years. My take could sound easy: through my own process I have 9-10 tracks that are my references other than live music and I make the /tonearm/cartridge set up with " obssesion " to pass those 9-10 tracks and when passed then I'm " there " but I'm not looking for a change with different LPs.
At the end what I love is to listen and enjoy MUSIC.
What's my main target is that the whole set up been made it with " absolute accuracy ", in this I'm extremely obssesed: ACCURACY.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Well solving a problem and adding to a problem are different ,say, approaches of the problems. We , I think, solved the problem stated by chakster. We even reduced the problem to two choices by considering Lofgren/Bearwald as the same solution. For those who own many 7'' records Stevenson for others Bearwald. The problem with the glued styli in exotic cantilevers can be solved with aluminum (alloy) cantilevers which, according to Carr (his post in the MM thread) have as advantage that the stylus can be pressure fitted. I own 3 FR-7 kinds, Miyabi standard, Magic Diamond and Anchor (Dertonarm) all with aluminum cantilever. Those are among my best MC carts. So to regard aluminum as some kind of inferiour material is problematic. The manufacturers as well as repair services get the cantilever/ stylus combo's from their suppliers. Those are mostly used by the so called ''retipps''. Gluing a new stylus in the original cantilever seems to be much more difficult than gluing the combo in the ''joint pipe'' on which also the coils and suspension are fastened. BTW the joint pipe is usually an aluminum tube. The manufacturers as well as the retippers are assumed to check the styli as delivered by their providers. We can't complain by styli/cantilever producers if something is wrong with either.
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If I may, let's look at the diamond on the end of the cantilever.
This was installed by human hands. Let's assume some type of jig was used. They now glue the diamond to the cantilever, and the glue dries. Opps, glue doesn't dry in a uniform fashion. Is your diamond perfectly perpendicular to the cantilever?.
Alignment protractors are a starting point. After that you adjust by ear. Use the tonearm designers recommended alignment. Again, it's just a starting point.
A lot of tonearms come with Azimuth adjustment. For me, this is the most crucial parameter. Once Azimuth is good, there is a larger range for vertical tracking angle (side rake angle). If Azimuth is off, you'll drive yourself crazy with VTA/SRA.
If you search Audiogon, Doug Deacon posted a fabulous thread on adjusting your cartridge. I think it should be a 'must read'.
If you're not shaking your head yet,........., the cutting head of the master lathe was also installed by hand.
Stop obsessing, you can't get it perfect, at least not for every album. |
Dear @sampsa55 : I see what you mean but I'm talking of a diferent subject. I'm talking of distortions levels.
Normally the Löfgren/Baerwald alignments gives really good low distortionm levels over the whole LP surface.
Ikeda as SAEC and other Japanese tonearms use diferent kind of alignments where distortion levels ( that must be the main subject. ) are higher.
That distance from headshell collet to the stylus tip is the overhang position and yes the designer can choose whatever he wants as Fleib said it. The main subject is which kind of alignment is using to look about distortion levels.
In my Ikeda, SAEC, Dynavector and other Japanese designs I just follow Löfgren B or Baerwald with better results than what the manufacturer recomend because his targets were diferent from mine and maybe my ears are " wrong " too.
As I said we can make our very personal alignment changing almost everything for calculations set up parameters but I'm in this critical subject more orthodox about.
There are no rules here.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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Sampsa55 -
"I align the cartridges based on the alignment the tonearm was designed for. Since most of my tonearms use removable head shells and were designed for a 52mm distance from the head shell connection to the stylus..." Raul -
"that's true only if those tonearms has the same effective length" "I think that you have a misunderstood on the input data for the whole calculations through diferent tonearm/cartridge alignments."
Sampsa55, You are obviously correct, but I suggest you let it go. Raul, The 52mm distance has nothing to do with eff. length or alignment in the way you're looking at it. . The designer can put the headshell collet wherever he wants along the length. In other words, 52mm from the correct overhang position for the length/alignment. Regards, |
To illustrate, here are snippets from the manuals for the original tonearm of Yamaha GT2000, Ikeda IT407 tonearm, and Denon 308/309 tonearms on how to align a cartridge. They all say that the cartridge has to be straight in the headshell with the stylus 50mm from the tonearm connection. Once a cartridge is aligned in one of these tonearms according to the alignment that the tonearm was designed for, the headshell can be moved to any of these other tonearms and the cartridge will automatically be aligned as the designer of that tonearm intended. https://imgur.com/a/Xtdg3Not all tonearms use this 50mm distance. Some other examples: - Sony PUA1600L: 52.5mm - Sony PUA9: 49mm - Technics (all of them): 52mm |
If the cartridge is aligned as designed by manufacturer, then the
cartridge is straight in the headshell. Now move it another tonearm and
align it according to that tonearm’s design: it will again be straight
in the headshell. To the extent that the tonearms are designed to have
different offset angles, those are manifest in the arm tube. So the only
thing that could change then is how far in the headshell the cartridge
is. But if both tonearms are designed to have the stylus 52mm from the
tonearm connection, that doesn’t change either.
If you have
difficulty visualizing this, then visualize moving an SPU from one
tonearm to another. This is just replicating that with a normal
cartridge & headshell.
This makes perfect sense, now that I'm awake, Sampsa55, with (of course) the key element being the offset angle being built into the "bent" portion of the arm wand. I haven't thought too much about vintage tonearms in the last year, and frankly, I lost track of the 52mm standard, forward offset which is the other key element which allows this to work. Cheers, Thom @ Galibier Design |
Raul, I think you're missing my point and talking about something different. I’m not talking about Baerwald, Loefgren, or Stevenson, but whatever the alignment was that the tonearm in question was designed for and the resulting position of the stylus in the headshell.
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Dear @sampsa55 : """ I align the cartridges based on the alignment the tonearm was designed for. Since most of my tonearms use removable head shells and were designed for a 52mm distance from the head shell connection to the stylus... """
that’s true only if those tonearms has the same effective length.
Ah, no. The effective length of the tonearm has nothing to do with this. You can have tonearms of very different length that are still designed to have the same 52mm distance from stylus to tonearm connection or tonearms with the exact same length that are designed for a different distance (e.g., 50mm) from stylus to tonearm connection. Again, think about the SPU: it can be used in short and long tonearms. |
Dear @sampsa55 : """
I align the cartridges based on the alignment the tonearm was designed for. Since most of my tonearms use removable head shells and were designed for a 52mm distance from the head shell connection to the stylus... """
that's true only if those tonearms has the same effective length.
Remember that the Löfgren calculations ( he was the first to do it and all the other kind of alignments starts by his equations. ) begin with the input know parameters:
tonearm effective length, inner most groove radius and outer most groove radius. This is the foundation of the alignments that must be untouched for the calculations.
From those 3 input parameters we calculate: offset angle, overhang, both null points and distance from the center of tonearm pivot to the center of TT spindle. If we move the overhang we need to move the tonearm mount distance in order to mantain distortions at minimum for the choosed alignment calculations.
Understanding all those we can have a " personal " alignments changing the effective length or any or both radius.
As I posted here in the tonearm/cartridge set up the name of the game with the choosed alignment is: accuracy on that set up.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Oh no, that's not at all necessarily the case. As others have pointed out, there's often a slight misalignment of the cantilever within the cartridge itself. Proper cartridge alignment aligns the cantilever to the record, and not the cartridge to the headshell.
As, lewm already indicated, that doesn't change the conclusion at all. If you align by the cantilever, then the cantilever (rather than the body) will be aligned straight in the headshell and will remain so in any arm if you use the alignment that the tonearm was designed for. |
Thom, The issue of doing the twist (Chubby Checker, where are you now that we need you?) has most to do with using Baerwald or Lofgren with a tonearm designed for Stevenson. This issue therefore only or mostly comes up with vintage tonearms of the kind that you usually do not deal with. In my case, it’s a Dynavector DV505. To set up the DV505 for B or L, one has to twist the cartridge inward (such that the front end of the cartridge is skewed toward the spindle side of the headshell) quite a bit. And of course, when I use the term "cartridge", I am referring to the cantilever, which is what counts, regardless of the fact that some cartridges do not come to us with precisely aligned cantilevers. Ideally, the cantilever should move in an arc in the vertical plane; it’s possible that when the plane of that arc does not align with the vertical plane described by the tonearm bearing, vector forces on the cantilever would not even out. I actually suspect this is a real issue that may be confined to the DV505 and other DV tonearms, where there are two discrete bearing systems, one vertical and one horizontal at play. In these tonearms, the vertical bearing cannot move horizontally to compensate for such a misalignment of the arcs. Maybe that is why I heard distortion as a result. Maybe it's a red herring for more conventional tonearms.
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sampsa55If the cartridge is aligned as designed by manufacturer, then the cartridge is straight in the headshell. Oh no, that's not at all necessarily the case. As others have pointed out, there's often a slight misalignment of the cantilever within the cartridge itself. Proper cartridge alignment aligns the cantilever to the record, and not the cartridge to the headshell. This is where mirrored alignment gauges - such as the WallyTracktor - really excel.
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Thom,
If the cartridge is aligned as designed by manufacturer, then the cartridge is straight in the headshell. Now move it another tonearm and align it according to that tonearm’s design: it will again be straight in the headshell. To the extent that the tonearms are designed to have different offset angles, those are manifest in the arm tube. So the only thing that could change then is how far in the headshell the cartridge is. But if both tonearms are designed to have the stylus 52mm from the tonearm connection, that doesn’t change either.
If you have difficulty visualizing this, then visualize moving an SPU from one tonearm to another. This is just replicating that with a normal cartridge & headshell.
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I'm generally in the same camp as Lewm on this one: I align the
cartridges based on the alignment the tonearm was designed for. Since
most of my tonearms use removable head shells and were designed for a
52mm distance from the head shell connection to the stylus, this has the
added benefit that the cartridge needs minimal if any realigning when
put into another tonearm.
I may be missing something here. I've had a long night on my CAD software and I'm a bit dimensionally challenged at the moment. If you have two tonearms using universal headshells: - Tonearm-A with
effective length A
and cartridge-A: the tonearm is designed for Baerwaald and this cartridge/headshell is aligned for Baerwaald
- Tonearm-B
with effective length B
and cartridge-B: the tonearm is designed for Stevenson and aligned as such.
If you swap the cartridge-B/headshell-B combo over to tonearm-A, you would absolutely need to perform a new alignment. I guess I don't get the concept of minimal realignment. It either needs a new setup (alignment) or it doesn't. Even if both arms were aligned for the same geometry (e.g. Baerwaald), the different effective lengths would mandate a different offset angle.. The whole concept of effective length is a dangerous one, because, two tonearms specified (for example) to have an effective length of 250mm would have different pivot-spindle specifications if one was intended for Stevenson or Loefgren and the other for Baerwaald.
I'm having problems visualizing any scenario where you could make any cross arm swapping work, but I'll ponder this one ;-)
Cheers, Thom @ Galibier Design |
That's a good point about 7" records. They're a bit off my radar.
Funny thing is, that I've not seen anyone develop math around smaller formats. Stevenson would likely be the closest to an ideal alignment.
Frankly, I don't find distortion increasing across the record with Baerwald, so if I started collecting 45's, I'd likely stick with it - only because I'm not going to get out the protractor for every record ;-)
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier
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@thom_mackris I view this in the same way that I view people who don’t play half of their records because they don’t sound good. With this point of view It seems like you are ignoring all formats of the vinyl records, except the "12 inch format. I don’t play half of the record simply because "7 inch single is nearly two times smaller in size than "12 inch and there is only 1 track per side recorded on 45rpm on the 7 inch records. Why do i need Baervald/Lofgren null points outside of the surface of my vinyl when we have Stevenson? I’m not into classical music at all, i prefer black music from the 60s and 70s (Jazz, Soul) on original pressings, but the logic of stevenson works great for small format of the vinyl singles (aka 45s) in any genre of music. |
The correct deduction will be true provided the premisse from which deductions are made is true. Is the premiss of this thread that we all own just one cart? I own more than 40 . Consider then my geometry adjustment by ear for them all. With the Mint tractor I need about 2 minutes for this adjustment. Thanks to the tractor's ''curve''. Not the one Raul is talking about (grin). |
I'm generally in the same camp as Lewm on this one: I align the cartridges based on the alignment the tonearm was designed for. Since most of my tonearms use removable head shells and were designed for a 52mm distance from the head shell connection to the stylus, this has the added benefit that the cartridge needs minimal if any realigning when put into another tonearm.
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Hi Lew,
I was basing my comments on the fact cartridges are not perfectly manufactured, and the more expensive ones are by no means immune to this. They very frequently have cantilevers that are misaligned to some degree (not perpendicular to the two mounting screws holes).
So, you’re frequently twisting the cartridge in the headshell to achieve an alignment with any geometry you choose.
One’s altered alignment could have the effect of "fixing" this square-ness relative to some reference point on the headshell or alternatively making it worse.
Ultimately however, I think this goes to the greater point - that one’s preference for a distortion profile of a particular alignment will be more noticeable to the listener than any potential stray resonances resulting from going off the reservation by choosing an alternate alignment.
I just don’t know how one could separate all of the variables to test the stray resonance hypothesis, so in the end, it becomes a try it and see (different alignments) sort of thing.
I’ve been wrong before, and by no means am stating gospel here, but regarding your hypothesis, one could argue that a slight additional skewing of a cartridge (we’re talking a fraction of a degree) could break up standing waves.
I just ran through the Ellison spreadsheet (I only have Baerwaald and Loefgren sheets set up - not Stephenson). I hate to call anything trivial, but in this example, we're looking at an offset angle difference of 0.0402 degree difference between the two alignments.
I worked off the assumption that anyone doing this has a fixed mount armboard - that they cannot change the pivot to spindle distance, so this will be held constant. Here's how the numbers play out for a tonearm with a nominal 250mm effective length:
Baerwaald:
Pivot-spindle: 233.0331 (held constant)
Effective length: 249.5657
Overhang: 16.5326
Offset angle: 21.9891
Loefgren:
Pivot-spindle: 233.0331 (held constant)
Effective length: 250.0000
Overhang: 16.9669
Offset angle: 21.9489
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier Design
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Fascinating reading. Anyone tried to do the alignment by ear? That's what counts, doesn't it, the way it sounds ?
No wonder I like tape, not much vinyl. |
Thom, I don't "view" it one or the other, either. But my recommendation is based on actual real life experience. At least one other person, reporting on Vinyl Engine, had the same experience. I would not argue that others who do it do not seem to perceive that twisting the cartridge in the headshell per se causes any distortion. Here is my hypothesis for the cause of the distortion: When the cantilever is not aligned with the long axis of the headshell, then forces acting in the vertical direction on the cantilever are unevenly distributed back to the tonearm pivot point.
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Hi all,
As far as using the designer’s intended alignment, this is one of the few areas where I say experiment (ignore the designer) and see what works for you.
Assuming a fixed mount on your tonearm (meaning that you can’t change your pivot-spindle distance), then the overhang difference between Baerwaald and Stephenson is less than 4mm.
The offset angle difference is minimal, and given the variance in cartridges’ cantilever alignment, the stars might just align and result in your having a cartridge whose body is "square" to the headshell ... or not. IOW, I don’t view twisting a cartridge mount to be a big deal.
You might find it entertaining to download the John Ellison spreadsheet on the Enjoy the Music website (I maintain a link on my main support page to it) and look at the distortion numbers generated as well as the geometric parameters.
Personally, I look at the Stephenson approach (optimizing for the inner groove at the expense of increased average distortion) to be less preferable than Baerwaald, but everyone is different, which is why I agree with Raul’s advice to play and see what works for you.
As far as Stephenson and optimizing symphonic playback is concerned (i.e. it's all about the crescendo at the end of the record), I view this in the same way that I view people who don't play half of their records because they don't sound good.
Why would you sacrifice the delicate section(s) over the bulk of the record to improve the last part?
This is somewhat like a mother saying to her kids: "finish those terrible tasting peas on your plate, and then you get to have dessert". I'd rather cook vegetables that my kid likes ;-)
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier Design
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If you buy an Eminent Technology air bearing linear tracking tonearm you won't need to worry about alignment at all, as there is no tracking angle error. Even your favourite 7" Conway Twitty records will sound fantastic.
With regard to Dynavector and their preference for Stevenson, I know that the reference system at their factory premises in the 70's/80's had a response flat down to 13hz and yes large symphonic recordings were commonly used for auditioning. At the time their view was that you were better off to have lower tracking angle distortion on the inner grooves.
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Hi nandric, you seem to be quite specific with language so I will try to clarify my intent. In my mind a general rule does not set a standard. It merely suggests something which may be followed or expected the majority of the time. So a general rule is not hard and fast (possibly an American expression?). For me, a standard would be more inclusive, defining all that met a minimum level of performance/results.
My hope was to offer a simpler solution which does not require measuring "zero" points or specifically identifying crescendos. Instead, one might need only consider the size of the record and/or type of music utilized for the majority of their listening. In fact I recall reading that Stevenson stated his alignment was intended to optimize symphonic music playback.
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Hi pryso, If you mean with ''general rule'' any standards by cart or tonearm producers then , as J. Carr stated, there are no such rules. The arguments for Stevenson are rediculous as put forward by chakster. Consider my records collection of +/- 3000 pieces. I would need to check them all in regards to the distance of the inner grooves to the spindle as well regarding the question if the crescendos are in those grooves. As I mentioned in my post the assumption is that those inner grooves are the most difficult for the arm and the stylus. So if the tracking error of the arm is at its minimum on this part of the record then this means ''zero'' point on the tractor. Those zero points are elsewhere by Lofgren/ Bearwald. This is in accordance with their intention: the least possible tracking error on the whole recod radius. Those are not ''small diferences'' but different approach of the tonearm geometry. |
A general rule?
OK, I’ll admit that can be dangerous, but how about this? If you need to set up for 7" records (nandric, those large center hole 45s) or mainly symphonic classical, then Stevenson may be your best alignment.
Otherwise, play other LPs (33 or 45 should make no difference) set up with the more common Lofgren/Baerwald.
Of course Lew’s recommendation to follow your arm design may overrule this. But then that may also guide you as to which type arm to select based on the records you intend to play.
I use a Dennesen Soundtracktor for alignment and that was designed to conform with Baerwald. I still have nearly 100 45s from high school but those are hardly ever played. And I enjoy many symphonies but they are a smaller percentage of my overall listening. So I’ve never felt the need to try the Stevenson.
Now, the truly anal may choose to have multiple playback systems, each specifically set up to play a particular type of record. ;^)
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By Yip , the owner of the Mint Arc protractor ,one can order specific tractor calculated for the owners TT and tonearm. Yip has the data of the most tonearms but needs the (exact) dimensions of the spindle in addition. Those are not of the same dimensions. The price is about $110 . The address: mintlp.com/best I own three Mint protractors two of which are made for my Kuzma Stabi Reference , Reed 3 P and Triplanar VII. The third for my SP- 10, Mk2 and FR-64 s . |
Here is my advice: Find out what geometry your tonearm was built for. (Headshell offset angle will vary according to the length of the tonearm and the geometry assumed by its designer.) Then use THAT geometry for THAT tonearm. Here is why: In a few of my own experiments, I found that using a geometry not envisioned by the tonearm design, as you might expect, results in a need to "twist" the cartridge with respect to the long axis of the headshell; the cartridge will not line up perfectly with the headshell, in other words, if viewed from above looking down. Listening tests suggested that this per se seemed to be a "bad thing". I can think of theoretical reasons why this might be so, but I have no proof. However, to avoid that source of distortion, I say again, use the geometry for which the tonearm was designed. Many vintage Japanese tonearms were designed either for a geometry unique to that company (e.g., SAEC, I think) or for Stevenson (e.g., Dynavector and probably your Lustre and Victor tonearms). It's something like LP equalization; back in the "old days" there was no gold standard, and one company often did equalization differently from another. Nowadays, RIAA and Baerwald seem to rule.
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Threads on alignment always catch my attention. I have a generic setup-VPI Classic/AT ART9-tube phono stage. I’ve tried the VPI jig and Feikert,which has the 3 alignments.
I can’t hear a difference in ANY of them. I settled on Baerwald which seems to be the best "compromise" on paper. The VPI jig puts the cart somewhere between the Baerwald & Stevenson if I remember? Hindsight, I wasted the cash on the Feikert jig. I could be happy just using the VPI jig, and call it a day.Azimuth seems to be the only adjustment I can perceive when futzing with the cartridge.
If I owned a SERIOUS rig $$$$, I certainly would obsess in finding which alignment provides the best sonics. Second thought, if I had that kind of dough, I would PAY a "professional"
Astro58go-your VPI story has me shaking my head with disappointment. Shame on BOTH of the companies involved. I have had positive experiences with the two. QC should be UNCOMPRIMISED regardless if one purchases an entry level product, or the very best$$!!!!
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Regarding the STP distance discrepancies...I ordered my TT through Music Direct and had them mount a cart. Apparently, they don't check such things before/or in the normal order of mounting customers cartridges. Wow! People need to know what's going on here. So much for relying on a VPI dealer to mount a cart correctly.
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Stevenson responded to the thread I just referenced on the VPI site. He remarked that the difference in the 3 geometries was of little difference.
So, if this is accurate, why the reluctance of VPI to respond?
It does stand to reason that in the natural movement of music, especially in classical recordings, that the climax will be more into the end of every lp side. This is not new info.
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I was recently interested in this subject. I was paying more attention to the accuracy of the tonearm geometry of my VPI Classic 3 Sig SE and the Feichert universal protractor. Upon using the Feichert, I'm measuring 260mm STP. After going to the VPI site, the best info from HW was 258mm. So, I asked THE question. I was told by the administrator, brf, to loosen either or both the armboard platform screws or the arm mounting board screws and use any slack, to compensate for any difference. Neither worked. So, I just paid around 5k for a tt that hasn't even been machined correctly to conform to industry standards. I also asked if Harry's supplied gauge is based upon any of the (3) standard geometries. I have yet to receive ONE answer. WOW!
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My Gosh, How could Tchaikovsky know on which part of the record to put (write) those shots ? Beethoven , on the other side, would not care for his crescendos because he was deaf (grin). |
The key word for Stevenson is "crescendo" which is a passage played with a gradual increase in volume or intensity (in classical music). According to Stevenson's alignment method a new set of parameters taking into account that on records with classical music very often crescendos occur towards the innermost grooves.
It's about arrangment of the classical music and where is the most complicated grooves located on the record surface (beggining, middle or toward the end on the record). It can be true if we are listening to a long (17 min for example) classical music track on 12'inch or 10'inch (or even a short 3 min track on 7'inch record).
A crescendo is a way for composers to indicate that a passage of music should gradually increase in loudness over time (opposite of a decrease in volume which is described as a 'decrescendo'). It is also used in non-musical context to describe any situation in which volume is increasing.
BTW the most complicated grooves with cannon shots on Telarc 1812 Overture located in the end of the LP.
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Dear chakster, On the most ''tractors'' one can see those two ''zero points'' at which a tonearm is assumed to have zero errors. Those two zero points are not at the same ''points'' in relation to the record radius. This imply different geometries. Lofgren and Bearwald calculated '' average values'' for the whole record radius with minimal errors in ''average sense''. Stevenson calculated the optimal values in relation to the ''innermost grooves'' as you called this. For such tractor a zero point near the spindle is necessary. So this tractor must be different from Lofgren/Bearwald. The most of my records are classical music but I hardly own any with grooves near the spindle. You assumption is the cotrary. However in the West, in contradistiction to Japan, the most tonearms have Lofgren/ Bearwald geometrry. |
Hi Raul, i’m gonna experiment with different alignment and different cartridges since the reconstruction of my new room is finished, finally. All set-up is ready to use and i’m looking forward to test everything.
Now about alignment for everybody:
Baerwald and Lofgren made their fundamental publications in the first half of 20th century. Later in the early 60s Stevenson (another mathematician) has calculated a new set of parameters taking into account that on records with classical music very often crescendos occur towards the innermost grooves! That make sence. |
@chakster : Again, """
Time to play with Baerwald, Lofgren, Stevenson alignments... """"
Do you already did it? what happens? whcich one do you prefer?. You are the one that in your system and according your music/sound priorities the best judge.
Accuracy means that any alignment you choose or like by your experiences " playing it " must be accurate on set up.
I can't understand why you ask for other people experiences on alignments when all depends on that accuracy level, system, kind of LP and personal priorities. All alignments in a pivoted tonearm designs has tracking error and some distortion levels. Differences is where in the surface LP grooves happens those different levels of distortions and that's all.
Alignments is not a rocket science very dificult to understand.
regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
@nandric
So I never owned those 7’’ kinds. Are those also called ’’records’’?
Haha. Believe it or not, but many bands from the 50s, 60s, 70s never released a full albums, just one or two singles on independens labels in 7’inch format (often just 500 copies) and then they are gone, so many fortotten gems in all genres of music. That’s why they are highly collectable, i’m talking about originals of course. Even if the band got an LP album the 45 single version can be different (take or arrangement). Pressing of the 45 (7inch) release is also cheaper than LP or "12. I know that most audiophiles ignoring this format and i can understand why, but for collectors those 45s are holy grails. Some of them recorded very well btw, some comes with mono and stereo versions of the same track on different side of the record (easy to comare). As for the Stevenson’s alignment i’m not sure, it’s just my suggestion, i think there must be industry standard (special alignment) for small record. But my original question is abut users experience with those arms adjusted by Baerwald, Lofgren, Stevenson. |
Dear chakster, ''Thant's the point?'' I have no idea what this expression means. It my mean ''that is not the point'' but also ''that is the point''. But if you know better why do you ask this question? I considered only the ''normal'' (aka 12'') records. I hate it to stand up and walk to my TT to turn the 12" records . So I never owned those 7'' kinds. Are those also called ''records''? |
