I recently heard Thiels, the new models...3.7 may beIwith a round top)? But didn't like them too much. Thought they were a bit analytical for my tastes. No warmth at all. I think it could have been the room they were in, but in any case I don't think this is the sound I am looking for. Thanks.
Time to change. But to what?
I've had my B&W N803 for a while now. Love them. But have a craving for a different type of sound.
I want speakers that play all kinds of music equally well. Excell at soundstaging, imaging, resolution, are NOT analytical, sound natural(this is very improtant...I hate artificial sound), and do the bass so you not only hear it but feel it as well.
I started building a list of potential candidates.
Here goes it:
1. B&W 803D
2. DALI Helicon 800MkII
3. DALI Euphonia MS4 or 5
4. Dynuadio S5.4
5. Sonus Faber Cremona
from the list I am familiar with S5.4, 803D and Cremona. I have never heard DALI speakers.
Room width is about 14 feet. Length is 18 feet. Speakers are on the short wall. Behind the speakers corners are treated with 8th Nerve Rectangles and Triangles, there is an area rug in front of speakers.
I listen to rock music, jazz(vocal and instrumental but dynamic stuff...no smooth jazz at all), acoustic music, solo, chamber and large orchestral classical(Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Bartok, Shoenberg, Shostakovich, etc). I would like the orchestra to be rendered as large and real as possible within the natural limitations of my room, system, listener.
I like to listen on realistic levels when I can, but since I have a 5 year old who goes to bed early, low level resolution is VERY IMPORTANT. I do a lot of late night listening at low levels and want to hear as much information out of the speakers as possible. My B&Ws excell at playing loud without strain. I want this quality to remain with the new speaker as well.
The speaker upgrade will most likely force me to use my Bel Canto DAC3 as a preamp for a while.
I am selling my BAT VK-51SE preamp right now to raise some funds for the speakers. Once I sell the preamp I plan to sell the B&Ws.
DAC3 isn't that bad direct into my Pass Labs X250.5 and I have a feeling I can deal with it for the time being.
No plans to change the amplifier, or anything else. Just the speakers.
What are my options?
Your advise is greatly appreciated.
I want speakers that play all kinds of music equally well. Excell at soundstaging, imaging, resolution, are NOT analytical, sound natural(this is very improtant...I hate artificial sound), and do the bass so you not only hear it but feel it as well.
I started building a list of potential candidates.
Here goes it:
1. B&W 803D
2. DALI Helicon 800MkII
3. DALI Euphonia MS4 or 5
4. Dynuadio S5.4
5. Sonus Faber Cremona
from the list I am familiar with S5.4, 803D and Cremona. I have never heard DALI speakers.
Room width is about 14 feet. Length is 18 feet. Speakers are on the short wall. Behind the speakers corners are treated with 8th Nerve Rectangles and Triangles, there is an area rug in front of speakers.
I listen to rock music, jazz(vocal and instrumental but dynamic stuff...no smooth jazz at all), acoustic music, solo, chamber and large orchestral classical(Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Bartok, Shoenberg, Shostakovich, etc). I would like the orchestra to be rendered as large and real as possible within the natural limitations of my room, system, listener.
I like to listen on realistic levels when I can, but since I have a 5 year old who goes to bed early, low level resolution is VERY IMPORTANT. I do a lot of late night listening at low levels and want to hear as much information out of the speakers as possible. My B&Ws excell at playing loud without strain. I want this quality to remain with the new speaker as well.
The speaker upgrade will most likely force me to use my Bel Canto DAC3 as a preamp for a while.
I am selling my BAT VK-51SE preamp right now to raise some funds for the speakers. Once I sell the preamp I plan to sell the B&Ws.
DAC3 isn't that bad direct into my Pass Labs X250.5 and I have a feeling I can deal with it for the time being.
No plans to change the amplifier, or anything else. Just the speakers.
What are my options?
Your advise is greatly appreciated.
108 responses Add your response
Okay, I guess I'll chime in here, as we've spoken over email about this, but maybe this will be helpful for others. I own the MS4's and am happy with them. They can be though, as Tvad said, analytical. I find them extremely sensitive to changes up the line (especially with cables) and am going to spend some time trying to find a nice synergy in my system before I entertain switching to something else. They're not necessarily forgiving speakers, and are going to reveal weaknesses in bad recordings, but they do wonderful things with sound-staging, micro-dynamics and vocals. Low-level listening is very pleasant, although I tend to listen at higher volumes. I think given your amplification, most of the speakers you're entertaining will sound good at low levels, because of the Pass's Class A bias. Now are they the perfect speaker for you, I don't know. I think you should listen to them, but I think that something else to hear is the Verity Parsifal Encore. I really love what these modestly-sized speakers do, especially at low level. They are nothing close to analytical, but are still resolving and articulate. They're pricier new or used, but I think that's a speaker you could be happy with for a long time. It's also nice that you can position the woofer to fire forward or backward depending on your room's setup. They're also beautiful in the Makore finish, IMO. Enjoy! |
09-01-08: Audphile1That's the dilemma with Thiels--they tend to be cold and analytical, but they present a challenging load to amplifiers (wild swings in an impedance curve that drops down to 2 ohms), so they don't mate well with tube amps. The one solution seems to be using a tube preamp to soften things up a bit before feeding to a high current SS amp. As for me, life's too short to try to live with Thiels if you want to enjoy your music disc after disc (or record after record). |
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Johnny, my problem with Thiels is this, 3.6's have been my speaker now for about 9 years and I don't know what I would ever go to. When fed right which I've done the resolution and coherence is addicting. Your right though you have to work a little and be ultra careful with upstream components and wire. I used a Blackbird cartridge for a while which leans towards the sharp side, however, my ortofon jubilee is perfect and when everything connects that is when Thiels are really hard to beat for me. |
How about another speaker. I just forgot to add it in the original list - Opera Callas Divina. Anyone familiar with it? it received a very good review in Stereophile few years ago. I never heard these speakers. if anyone has, please share your thoughts on their sound qualities. do they belong in a group with B&Ws and Dynaudio - dynamic and powerfull, or are they more like Sonus Faber Cremona, laid back and forgiving? Much appreciated. |
I upgraded out of a pair of B&W N803s (which I enjoyed very much) to Wilson Audio CUB2 and then Sophia Speakers. The Wilson Speakers were vastly better than the B&Ws in every way, in my Room with my Electronics, there was no comparison. I kept the same Amplifier with the highly-efficient CUB2s, but eventually upgraded into a PASS X250.5 + X1 with the Sophias and the sound exceeded all of my expectations. A used pair of Sophia1s could be had at a reasonable cost, and will push your system to the next level. The PASS Amp. worked-out best for me, in comparison to BAT, Krell, McIntosh & others that I tried. The X250.5 that you own, is "the best" sounding SS Amp. that I have yet to hear on Sophias. |
ha-ha. many choices. yes. but I will not rush. I am going to audition as much as I can and then make my decision. I know this amp is great. That's why it stays. I haven't heard the Sophias in a good set up yet. I know they are good speakers, but for some reason they're demoed with electronics that highlight their worst qualities. Flav, what speaker cables and interconnects are you using? |
Audphile1 - I too had mixed feelings regarding Wilson Speakers, but when they were properly set-up in my Home, with good electronics - the results were mind-blowing. Everyone that came into my Home had the same reaction - they simple could not believe what they were hearing. I had the B&W N803 and a pair of Focal 1027Be at the same time as the CUB2s and no A/B Test was needed - the CUB2s sounded real and the B&Ws and Focals sounded like typical stereo speakers - and the Sophias are better still. If it were my money, I would sell your BAT Preamp. and B&W N803, and replace them with a PASS X1 Preamp. and a pair of Wilson Sophias. The sonic differences between the Preamps would pale in comparison to the night & day differences between the Speakers. Note: Another benefit to going with the Sophia1, which many people may not know, is that they are fully upgradeable. In the future, you could have them upgraded to "Series 2" - my local Wilson Audio Dealer offers the upgrade "in Home" and will re-voice the Speakers when finished. I'm currently using Transparent Plus Series Cables. |
Flav, thanks. Exactly my plan - sell the preamp and speakers. Upgrde speakers first and then possibly get a pre. But that is much later. First the speakers. I know the biggest difference would be in the speaker change. Thanks again. May be I should audition Wilsons again. I think the thing that screwed up my last Wilson Sophia audition was the fact that while waiting for the Sophias to be hooked up into the system, I was left in another room with the Alexandrias and all top line Levinson stuff. I was there for a while listening to that before I went into the room with Sophias. That could have done it, don't you think? :) |
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I still don't know what I was waiting for And my time was running wild A million dead-end tweets Every time I thought I'd got the sound It seemed the taste was not so sweet So I turned myself to Dali But I've never caught a glimpse Of how the others must see Sonus Faber I'm making a list to try and test Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes (Turn and face Vandersteen) Ch-ch-Changes Don't want the B&W again Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes (Turn and face the Silverline) Ch-ch-Changes Just gonna have to see a salesman Time may change me But I can't trace time |
Mariusz, Luger's about 15 minutes away from me. Never been there. Don't care much for steak...no matter how good it is. Just not a big fan. Don't like hot dogs either(geez I can smell them right now). Will hear Dali MS5 tomorrow. By the way, there is an excellent Dali exhibition at the MoMA in NYC...if anyone likes Dali's work(not the speakers this time but the artist, Salvador Dali). |
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Audphile1 - I don't put much stock in “in-Store-Audio-Demonstrations”. I audition all of my prospective gear at Home. I have a large dedicated listening room with good acoustics, that I am well familiar with, plus I hold on to my old gear to use as a reference - a relaxing and familiar atmosphere, were I could take my time, works best for me to honestly evaluate a new component. When I listen to the larger Wilson models, it doesn't make me appreciate the Sophias any less – to me, the best sounding Wilson model, is the one that I happen to be listening to at the time. I’ve auditioned many different high-quality electronics and cables through the Sophias, and they have never sounded bad – only different degrees of very good. If you could find a clean pair of Sophia1s for under $7K delivered - I would go for it - this model is well vetted - not much of a “leap of faith” here. Good luck! |
Called Silverline today. I guess it was Alan who answered the phone, and told me there was no dealer in NY or NJ area that has Sonata III or Bolero in stock. That's a pitty. I really wanted to hear both. On a positive note, I heard Dali MS5 today and was impressed. Associated equipment and most likelyh the speaker placement/positioning wasn't ideal, but I spent about 2 hours listening. Liked them. These speakers remain on my list. Their level of resolution is something to get used to though...WOW. I actually heard some things I didn't know were there on the Telarc recording of Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet. Pretty impressive. |
09-01-08: PopsYep, you're right. What I posted before was what I feel about Thiels in *my* situation, which is I often can't sit in the sweet spot and having had two heart attacks, I just can't submit myself to the stress of speaker placement and system tuning that the Thiels require. But you're right. In this respect they also remind me of Wilsons. Picky about room placement and where you sit, but if you get it right, few speakers hang the images in 3-D space like these guys. And it's thrilling when you get it right. And I can sure see where an Ortofon Jubilee would help make that happen. For me, I gave up that nth degree of pinpoint imaging in favor of a robust soundstage and natural timbres throughout the room that I get from Mirage omnidirectional speakers. |
Most likely Cremonas are off the list. 1. they go down to 40hz, which isn't low enough 2. do not like to be played as loud 3. for what they cost I feel I can get a better speaker. Silverline are most likely out as well because I can not hear them anywhere in the area. I'm unlikely to buy speakers without audition. Market is not that great right now and things just don't sell as well. It isn't exactly the perfect time to experiment by buy and sell. Dali MS4 or MS5 remain; Wilson Sophia added; Dynaudio S5.4 remain; Dynaudio C2 added; B&W 803D remain; I think all these speakers have in common is they are resolving, dynamic and should excell at low level resolution, except may be for the 803D since I know B&Ws like to be played as loud as possible. All hang in approximately same price category. I haven't heard the Focals. Not familiar with their sound. If they have same sonics as JM LAB speakers, which I found pretty lean, it isn't exactly what I'm looking for. |
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WOW. I actually heard some things I didn't know were there on the Telarc recording of Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet. Not sure which version you heard but this Romeo & Juliet was done using ATC speakers - if you like that kind of dynamic recording and clarity then make sure to check ATC out. Telarc use Active 150's in the field and post production. Telarc also use the small Active 20's in mastering (with a sub of course) - see this pro users discussion thread. You'll be pretty close to hearing the music the way it was intended with these. |
Johnny, I hear you! I've always been a fan of mirage. I almost went that route with the M-3si and ended up with Thiel. I like the robust sound you describe and get that when I switch from Kimber Select to MIT's. I'm currently auditioning 1030's with 1011's and 3035's and the precision and microdynamics are excellent but I don't quite get that driving, organic sound I get with all 1011's or MIT's. Hey Audphile, glad to see you added Wilson, I would think that would be interesting, certainly would for me. |
I just heard my friend's system with the Dynaudio S5.4 today, and again, I was very impressed. I have a major feeling I will end up with either the Dyns or the Wilsons. Dyns are cheaper and sound awesome. Wilsons are more expensive and sound great as well, but are they worth the price difference? Are they really better? I will have to hear the Sophias again to know what they pack that the Dyns are missing. I find the Dyanudio S5.4 to have a great balance top to bottom. Excellent detail retrieval, soundstaging, imaging, clarity, bass. Everything is there. 2-ears, the reason Ushers aren't on the list is that I never heard them. |
I just heard my friend's system with the Dynaudio S5.4 today, and again, I was very impressed. I have a major feeling I will end up with either the Dyns or the Wilsons. Dynaudio make their own drivers. Very high quality and are good at loud without strain. Good value. That would be my choice now you have narrowed it down to two speakers. |
The Dyns are easy for me to listen to and evaluate in my friend's system. I do love the Dynaudio sound. And I have been a fan of Wilson speakers fo a long time as well, but the Sophia are not that easy to audition in a properly set up system. As I said, last time I heard them wasn't really with the electronics of my choice and everything else wasn't set up correctly either. Dali are very good as well. Their resolution is like nothing I have heard before. Absolutely crazy. Danger in that is that it can work for and against you. But they give you the clearest view on the recording. I am still shocked at how much information there was on CDs I was familiar with, the details that were faint or even inaudible on other speakers. Really, you got to hear it to beleive it. It's outstanding. |
I'm going to chime in here again. Audphile1 and I are going to listen to my Dali MS4s with his pass 250.5 and my bat vk 250 running from the aesthetix janus and the Bel Canto DAC 3, so it'll be interesting to see what happens. I just took delivery of the Pass INT-150 today and couldn't wait to warm it up, so am listening to it cold with the Dali's. I have a thread on my initial impressions of this integrated that I'll update, but I'll just say that I think Pass electronics and Dali are a good combo, and this is from a non-broken-in unit. The high resolve of the Dalis is there, but any stridency has been taken out of the highs, and the sound is much rounder. Sure, bass is a little bloated at the moment, but I'm hoping I'm onto something here. The Dali's will not be forgiving with a recording, but they'll reproduce a good or great recording so well that it's hard to forget. I still say if you want more forgiving yet engaging speakers that Verity has some great stuff in nicely designed and proportioned packages, FWIW. |
Aud/Mimb that sounds like a good time. Please do post your findings. As a Dynaudio S5.4 owner (read: biased) I concur with your (audphile) findings. Very coherent across the range, stunning vocal clarity, accurate dynamics, shimmering highs that seem to have no limit, outstanding imaging (they do the 'dissapear' thing quite well), and excellent detail retrieval at low (night time) levels. I have little kids and this is VERY important. Prior to the S5.4's I had S3.4s and 1.8 MKII's. There is some intangible "rightness" to Dynaudio's sound, especially through the midband, that has me totally hooked. The fact that I can drive the S5.4s to excellent results across a wide range of volume with my lower power rated Plinius says quite a bit about the results you will get with the refined Pass X250.5 powerhouse. I know, I had one of those too (I miss that amp. Perhaps down the line I will try another Pass amplifier, but in the meantime I'm awaiting delivery of a Pass X1 preamp--like dynaudio there something also "just right" about Pass!) ok enough! TGIF and have a great time. |
I can always put in a vote for Dynaudio. I own smaller Contour monitors and have heard various larger Dyns. Would concur with others general observations above. Set them up properly in the room, drive them properly with well matched amplification and there is little to want for at any particular price point. |
Audphile1, I am surprised no one has mentioned the aerial line. I currently still own a pair of 8b's and they play your type of music well. They also do not come apart at higher listening levels, and play well a low volumes. Compared to my Thiel CS6'S they are warmer sounding, but they do not match the resolution of the Thiel. However the aerial 9 or 20 may be just right for you. Also agree that the Nola line and Silverline speakers are good choices. |
Audphile1- if you are in NYC, why not drive up to Mt. Kisco? I believe Frank has both Wilson and Dynaudio there. (and he's a great dealer) Audiocom in Greenwich has Revel and B&W and is another fantastic place. You can hear a ton at Sound By Singer as well in the city. (Audio Physic, Focal, etc) FWIW, i just got a pair of C1s the other day and owned Sophias in the past. I can probably give you a good idea of how different the two brands are in due time. ps. the C1 has a lot more bass than it should have for its size. I chose the Sophias over the C4s a long time ago, but i'm not a huge fan of the Confidence aesthetics---barring the C1 monitor of course. I have heard the C2 is not much better than the C1, if that. Bit more low end, but the C4 is the true upgrade (as its full range) KeithR |
Hi Keith it isn't clear from your post which speaker was better sonically in your system, the C4 or the Sophia. Aesthetix aside. Also, C2 is almost full range. Low frequency is specified at 28hz. That's deep. C1 goes down to 45hz. Not even reaching the lowest note on acoustic bass. I realize it rolls off and may still go into the 30s, but it won't dig as deep as C2. At least basedon the specs. C2 also has 4 times the internal cabinet volume of C1. Just that should be enough to make a substantial difference in the performance of the speaker. |
my problem with the C2 is its a 2.5 way as i recall. The C4 is a true 3 way and will get you better bass and overall sound. i would rather have C1 or C4. btw, the person i bought them from bought C4s there is a C1 review out there that mentions the guy gets in room response of -3db at 34hz. the official specs are 45hz at -2db. that is pretty crazy. unless you listen to organ music.... as far as C4 vs. Sophia--- i liked both, but for different reasons. Sophia is more dynamic, more amplifier friendly. Danes perhaps have a more neutral top end/midrange. bass also leans to the C4s as you would expect. fyi- gotta believe the Confidence series will be redone in a year. its up next and due. been out since 2002. |
Keith, I see. Thanks. As I said, I do realize the bass goes deeper than specs(same as with my B&Ws, which reproduce 28hz test tone but specified as 42hz low, they gently roll off the bass), but still, a mini monitor is what it is. Doubt it competes with a large floorstander such as C2. If the C2 isn't much better than C1, that would be really surprising. If the design is properly implemented, I wouldn't worry about 2.5 way vs 3 way speaker. Dynaudio usually doesn't screw up. I haven't heard the C2 or the C1 and I can not back it up with facts. So we are probably discussing something we both are not sure about(it seems you haven't heard the C2 either). I have heard 2 different Dynaudio speakers, at 2 totally opposite ends of the product line, the Evidence Master and Contour S5.4, and liked both of them a lot. |
well, if you want to talk about specs- the C4 is only specified to 27hz vs. 28hz for the C2. weird eh? i would much rather have separate mid drivers of the C4, but i would be shocked if the C4 didn't have tons more bass than the C2 with the addition of 2 8" drivers. ps. i would absolutely rather have Sophias than C2s (which are pretty much the same price point used) |
Hi Keith, I pretty much decided it will either be the S5.4 or the Sophia. C2 are great but I doubt they will have the bass I want. BTW, review of C4 in Stereophile indicates the bass to be too much of a good thing, to the point it is hard to get right. I wish I could shoot straight to C4 but at this time the room and budget allow for a lesser speaker only. |
