Three questions
1. How many Tidal owners demo'ed Magico products too? What made you go toward Tidal?
2. Since all Tidal speakers are arriving with the BCC drivers,is there really a difference between the Contriva Diacera TT and the regular models with the new BCC drivers?
3. How big or small are the sweetspots for Tidal speakers?
Thank you in advance. |
Violin by Kagermann in the tune? |
Looks like they were in a fairly large room and placed about 6 feet out from the back wall and 4 feet out from the side walls and about 7 feet apart - must of sounded real nice. I heard them at RMAF in a smaller room and was quite taken with their sound. |
Some of you might enjoy this Youtube clip of the Piano Ceras at Munich 2011. Doesn't sound half bad considering it is on Youtube. Looks like long tall Jorn walking around answering questions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fplnydJ5Q-E |
Quanmer: I do follow you for the full 100%.
You must "undergo" the difference and the right experience and wishes makes you decide to go for that special thing or item....
Regards |
Elviukai, you are welcome, to debate Wilson or other speakers, it's like to debate Nikon or Canon camera and lenses.
To me, Tidal is like Leica to me, if a guy can't tell the difference in image by his eyes between Leica and others, it is very difficult to say more.
I don't mean to look down to them, I start to appreciate the differences since I owned Leica, and make some test by myself. That is a long learn curve. Before that, I also thought Leica is just a "status" product.
Of course Canon or Nikon or Konica-Minota or etc... does make some outstanding product from time to time. |
Tbg,Quanmer, thank you for Your answers. |
Elviukai, I will not enter into a discussion of which speaker is most sensitive to associate equipment. All I will say is that some equipment make the Tidals sing. I know my preferences for speakers do not coincide with those that regularly get the nomination in the rags as "best of the show," so I can only reiterate what I said, I don't know why a Tidal dealer would undercut how they sound. Perhaps it is his not having access to better, perhaps it is profit margins, etc., but I have heard the Tidals not sound good at shows as well as them sounding outstanding, so much so that I decided to bite the bullet and buy them. |
Elviukai, yes, Tidal is a very honest instrument to reflect setup. Most of speakers may account for 50 to 70% influence to the sound of a system, Tidal may take less than 20%.
I used to own W/P 8, so I know Wilason is also sensitive to setup, but no matter how you change your setup, Tidal is in another class, I think the biggest difference is coherency, I heard new Sasha, big improvement from previous models, much balanced in every way, but Tidal Interpretate music in closer way. |
TBG actualy its oposite- for my ears its the smaller wilsons that needs lot of atention to sound good and not" etched" and hyper detailed and exited( they can, and mostly sounds sound bad on dealers) are you saying that Tidal is more sensitive to setup? |
I have one little problem with Tidal. While I used to be able to listen to music for almost everyday in the past, I have to try restrict myself to weekend only sessions now. It is so very very hard for me to tear away from them once they started singing! Thus, one listening session could easily cost me 'at least' 6-8hrs straight (no joke!), of which I cannot yet afford to do during the weekdays at the moment. Is this a common problem with other users? Well I guess it is a good problem, but it still 'is' a problem--not hype. :p |
Shsohis, much depends on the electronics and wire associated with the speakers as well as the room. Fortunately, Tidals show what precedes them. If your dealers makes no effort to audition them well, that is his problem. |
Shsohis, no hype on Tidal, just very real, coherent and musical, if you like hype, try Wilson or something else. I can hear my Tidal for many hours without hint of fatigue.
Please bring your most familiar CD for audition, if you could hear the difference, please share your feeling with us. |
I recently heard a Tidal - some floorstander at the dealer and my further impression was - what's the big hype here?
Will return another to audition some more. |
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Argyro, I am using BMC gear. They have no preamp or line stage. Their DAC1 PRE has an optional line stage module that allows analog input. I have this option. In fact presently I am using a Weiss Dac202 driven by my Macintosh computer into one of the two RCA inputs. I am soon going to use balanced cables from the Weiss to hear whether balanced improves performance.
If you have no need to have analog, I cannot, you can buy the DAC1 without the preamp module. The DAC1 provides control of volume to the BMC amps as well as the "current injection" circuit in running the amps. |
How many of you have used Tidal speakers with no preamp? Can you share your impressions please?
Happy Listening,
Mike |
I visited the Munich High End Show on Saturday and Sunday. The best sound of the show was in my opinion the system with Ancient Audio lector Air, Tidal Impact stereo amplifier and the Tidal Piano Cera with the latest black ceramic drivers. A system with a total value of 50000 Euros was so musical and coherent unlike any other system I heard. Congratulations Jorn... |
Argyro, it is a special order Hubble. This is all I know other than the fact that it very substantial and has only brass and bakelite. I got it with a Sound Application SA-1 for review. I also know that it far surpasses anything else I have heard. |
Tbg can you please provide a link of this company? |
Argyro, I have never heard of an outlet capable of doing this but this is what I measure. I'm dumbfounded, but it does relieve me of my concerns about the low volume. |
Τbg 6db equals with double the acoustic pressure, thus two times as loud.
I think that Tidals have such an undistorted sound that cracking up the volume seems much more comfortable than with other speakers.
Happy Listening,
Mike |
Tbg, good to know, how about the sound from new outlet except 6db louder. |
Quanmer, I am in no way saying that I dislike my Tidals. It is also possible that I am playing them loudly because they can take it and the signal I am sending is so clean. I am just trying to understand why I am playing a such a much higher level than other guys I know, none of whom have Tidals.
Incidentally, I substituted a wall outlet that has given me what appears to be a 6 db increase in volume. I cannot really understand where this energy was going in the old outlet, as it was not hot. I am told that the new outlet, from Sound Applications, has much higher conductivity. |
Argyro, you are right. I don't feel my Contriva Diacera SE is difficult to drive as ATC 20SL, I still can listen at low volume, not like ATC, the sound collapsed when play low volume. |
Guys there are many other things except the sensitivity rating that determine how easy is to drive a speaker. For example the diameter of the drivers, the impedance of the speaker on the whole frequency range as well as the power supply of the amplifier. You cannot estimate sensitivity the way you try to.
Happy Listening,
Mike |
Tbg, but it is more efficient than ATC 20SL, which is 83 db |
Quanmer - Thanks for those kinds words. As I'm sure you saw in the neutrality thread, I'm generally an advocate of neutrality, which is to say an advocate of minimizing colorations, particularly certain kinds of colorations.
Of course, there are other considerations besides neutrality when assembling an audio system, and each person should make up his own mind about how to weigh them.
I am certainly interested in hearing Tidal's speakers. It doesn't look like they are going to be at the next RMAF, but maybe I'll hear them at a future CES, which I attend from time to time.
Happy listening.
Bryon |
Quanmer, that is what I was thinking, but the volume relative to the 86 db speakers suggests much lower. |
Tbg, Jorn never disclose the technical spec. But by comparing to my previous speakers, my best guess is around 88 db. |
Argyro, I agree. I have the BMC M1 amps and play them at somewhere in the range of 53-59 on their volume. Most others who have them place at no more than the 49, including on 86 db efficient speakers. What is the efficiency of the Contriva Diacera SEs? Is it in the low 80s? |
Bryon, I actually enjoy this thread and your thread for debating neutralnality, I don't think it is hyjecting the Tidal thread. Because as a Tidal owner, all discussions here approve one thing : Tidal is more neutral than most others in the market. Jorn is sticking with what he believe and deliver them in the way the owner can easily recognize.
My friend who own Marten Coltrane Prime, he visited my house to listen Tidal, at the first audition, he told me Tidal is "normal", maybe I did not set up well enough.
Then I went to his house to listen his Coltrane, I finally understand why he comments Tidal as "normal", Then we start to debate the definition of "good speaker". I describe my feeling of good speaker was very very similar to what Jorn described here. But that was months ago, I have not read Jorn's philosophy he posted here just in these two days.
To make long story short. My friend bought a pair of Sunray, and did not want to listen to Coltrane anymore even they are still in his living room . He accepted my listening philosophy and fully appreciate Tidal speakers since then. Hope you can visit Tidal demo soon and reply to us soon, I want to know your listening experience is matching to owners' experiences. |
Let's continue guys, please do not feed the trolls! |
focalfan....why don't you read the title of the forum again..obviously you don't understand the meaning of the word ' owners'...nobody on this forum cares what you think about tidal speakers...we all love them....we, as owners, are no more a 'cult' then porsche owners are a cult for liking their porsches.you like focal speakers...that's great..go find a 'focal forum' to infest. |
Focalfan, I for one appreciate Jorn taking his time chiming in sharing his insight and experiences with Tidal users, after all, it is what this thread is about, thus appropriate. Curiously though, out of your few posts here at Gon, I noticed mostly were attacks on Tidal, you seem to have something going against them. |
I would add that Tidal are sticking their neck out by designing to neutrality as EVERYONE knows that a "smilie EQ" on a speaker will sell. All you need do is
1) above all make it look good (as though it is brimming with technology) and
2) give it plenty of bass and bit of zing in the treble
... and there you go "boom boom tizz" sells better than anything else (it would be unfair to single out Wilson or B&W but the market leaders in high end all know that this is true because impressive sound wins in a demo most of the time). |
Focalfan,
It is entirely appropriate and acceptable provided the manufacturer identifies themselves.
Sadly many reviewers have monetary interest in equipment (getting a special deal on a demo item) and do not make these conflicts of interest well known.
At least with a manufacturer or dealer we know to take everything with a pinch of salt.
Frankly, I liked what Jorn said. His statements about the principles he uses to design speakers was very helpful. I am actually more interested in Tidal now that they are claiming to have a solid design philosophy based on neutrality instead of the usual techno-babble BS that you hear from so many manufacturers (you know special materials, special cryogenic treatments - blah-di-blah). |
Focalfan - You are certainly entitled to your opinion. It is my opinion that Jörn has not crossed the line into advertising.
As far as being a member of a "cult," I have never even heard a speaker from Tidal.
Bryon |
Focalfan,
is it promotion to answer what Tidals view on neutrality is and how they implement that i their designs in a thread specificly about Tidal speakers where the issue of neutrality is discussed?
I think not. |
Thank you, Jörn, for your response. The views you have expressed about neutrality are very similar to my own. And FWIW... I, for one, enjoy comments from manufacturers, provided that the thread doesn't become a vehicle for advertising, which this thread has not, IMO. 05-13-11: Argyro
...your system should react accordingly to different recordings as well as equipment. If every recording sounds unique you are in the right path...Or vice versa, the common sound attributes you identify between different recordings is your system's character. I completely agree, Mike. Bryon |
again, self- promiting,and self- marketing b.s
from tidal!
everyone should agree that is wrong for you to paint these chat threadswith your "opinions". unless they are part of your "cult" |
Dear Bryon,
I can follow your experience and your conclusion could be a first proof that your system allows you to hear the different qualites of your recordings. Cause in the end of the day it is like this: if you have the perfectly neutral speakers/cables/amps/source/room, what do you hear then and would start to describe? The recording quality itself.
And this can be both a wonderful revelation and bring you closer to the artist then ever before, or it can show you the same unasked truth as seeing a not so pretty face on a 55" full HD screen. I believe the whole hifi camp is making a constant discussion between these two ones: reproducing music as it was recorded and reproducing music as one likes to hear it. And all inbetween ;-).
Please understand that I do not want to be to much involved into this, I just wanted to explain it a bit better what it is what WE do.
Jörn |
Jorn described neutrality very well. I would add that your system should react accordingly to different recordings as well as equipment. If every recording sounds unique you are in the right path...Or vice versa, the common sound attributes you identify between different recordings is your system's character. ;)
Happy Listening,
Mike |
Bryoncunningham, the Munich audio show is going on now with many listening to quality speakers and deciding which sound better. Jorn may not respond quickly. |
it is not appropriate for manufacatur to comment on his products, on these end- user threads.
self- promoting noneses, together with self- marketing is double wrong. |
05-13-11: Tidal
A chameleon-like ability to follow every change in equipment is always a first little sign for neutrality of a speaker if one does not have or care about measurements. Jörn - This comment struck me. A while back, I started an A'gon thread on the topic of neutrality. In it, I proposed a way to judge the neutrality of a component in cases where you do not have measurements. Here is what I wrote... "Your system is becoming more neutral whenever you change a system element (component, cable, room treatment, etc.) and you get the following results: (1) Individual pieces of music sound more unique. (2) Your music collection sounds more diverse. This theory occurred to me one day when I changed amps and noticed that the timbres of instruments were suddenly more distinct from one another. With the old amp, all instruments seemed to have a common harmonic element (the signature of the amp?!). With the new amp, individual instrument timbres sounded more unique and the range of instrument timbres sounded more diverse. I went on to notice that whole songs (and even whole albums) sounded more unique, and that my music collection, taken as a whole, sounded more diverse. That led me to the following idea: If, after changing a system element, (1) individual pieces of music sound more unique, and (2) your music collection sounds more diverse, then your system is contributing less of its own signature to the music. And less signature means more neutral." I'd be very interested to hear your reaction to this idea. Bryon |
Roysen, You say, "Please then imagine there existed a single measurement tool which shows neutrality. This measurement would undoubtably have shown the same degree of neutrality with or without listeners. That is a fact and not subjective." All that I really can say is that I entirely agree, but this is unimaginable.
That is my entire point. Were we to have such a measure, there would not be thousands of manufacturers or any point to discussions about speakers on Audiogon. The real question is what happens if we lack that measurement. |
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Thank you Mr Janczak.
Your position on this issue is very convincing and makes me want your products even more.
I would actually say that to use hearing and listening evaluation as tools for manufacturing a speaker would be good for a DIYer who knows what he wants, but to do that when manufacturing a speaker for market with as many opinions as people would be very unprofessional and selfish. |
I need to add that how can something that doesn't change be subjective. It can't. The only thing subjective about something that doesn't change is how we like it. Taste is subjective. However no matter how much we like or dislike the sound from a speaker its deviations between the input signal and its output will be constant. That is a fact even if we can't measure it.
The only way neutral could be subjective would be if individual taste would be part of how to detect neutrality, and that is not the case. Taste is only involved when you determine what is best.
Neutral and best certainly is not the same. |
