05-02-11: Roysen I think there are two separate, but related, issues contained in the comments above... (1) IS component x neutral? (2) HOW DO YOU KNOW if component x is neutral? As far as I can tell, Roysen is using the term "neutrality" to mean the same thing as "accuracy." Hence, for him, neutrality is: The degree of absence of inaccuracies. Inaccuracies are deviations of a component's output from its input. By those definitions, the neutrality of a component is OBJECTIVE. That is to say, there are objective truths about the ways in which a component's output deviates from its input. But Fiddler and Tbg seem to be asking a different question, namely: HOW DO YOU KNOW the ways in which a component is inaccurate, and hence HOW DO YOU KNOW the extent to which it is neutral? This is a valid question. One possible response is: the various measurements of accuracy, some of which routinely occur in Stereophile. But I believe that that response does not entirely answer the concerns of Subjectivists. The reason is because it is often difficult to know the ways in which a component is inaccurate. The measurements available to consumers, and even those available to manufacturers, are often not exhaustive. Because of that, the neutrality of a component may be difficult, or even impossible, for the end user to assess. In that sense, our KNOWLEDGE of a component's neutrality is, to some extent, SUBJECTIVE. Personally, I do believe that some components are more neutral than others. I also believe that there are methods of assessing the neutrality of a component, WITHIN CERTAIN LIMITS. Roysen proposed one method: measurements. I proposed an alternative method in a another thread in which the topic of neutrality was discussed at great length. Hence, I am an Objectivist. In other words, I believe that there is such a thing as truth. But many truths are elusive, and our knowledge is therefore incomplete. In the context of audio, Subjectivism is valid to the extent that its truths are elusive and our knowledge is incomplete. Bryon |
Roysen and Tbg - In the interest of not hijacking this thread further, I have responded to both your comments on the thread devoted to the topic of neutrality, which you can read here. Bryon |
Thank you, Jörn, for your response. The views you have expressed about neutrality are very similar to my own. And FWIW... I, for one, enjoy comments from manufacturers, provided that the thread doesn't become a vehicle for advertising, which this thread has not, IMO. 05-13-11: Argyro I completely agree, Mike. Bryon |
05-13-11: Tidal Jörn - This comment struck me. A while back, I started an A'gon thread on the topic of neutrality. In it, I proposed a way to judge the neutrality of a component in cases where you do not have measurements. Here is what I wrote... "Your system is becoming more neutral whenever you change a system element (component, cable, room treatment, etc.) and you get the following results: (1) Individual pieces of music sound more unique. (2) Your music collection sounds more diverse. This theory occurred to me one day when I changed amps and noticed that the timbres of instruments were suddenly more distinct from one another. With the old amp, all instruments seemed to have a common harmonic element (the signature of the amp?!). With the new amp, individual instrument timbres sounded more unique and the range of instrument timbres sounded more diverse. I went on to notice that whole songs (and even whole albums) sounded more unique, and that my music collection, taken as a whole, sounded more diverse. That led me to the following idea: If, after changing a system element, (1) individual pieces of music sound more unique, and (2) your music collection sounds more diverse, then your system is contributing less of its own signature to the music. And less signature means more neutral." I'd be very interested to hear your reaction to this idea. Bryon |
Quanmer - Thanks for those kinds words. As I'm sure you saw in the neutrality thread, I'm generally an advocate of neutrality, which is to say an advocate of minimizing colorations, particularly certain kinds of colorations. Of course, there are other considerations besides neutrality when assembling an audio system, and each person should make up his own mind about how to weigh them. I am certainly interested in hearing Tidal's speakers. It doesn't look like they are going to be at the next RMAF, but maybe I'll hear them at a future CES, which I attend from time to time. Happy listening. Bryon |
