Thinking about upgrading, but wondering about diminishing returns
Hi folks,
I have mostly Conrad Johnson Gear-- LP260M SE mono blocks, with 8 kt120 tubes each. These are SET amps that put out 270 wpc. I have the Conrad Johnson ET5 preamp, with a Telefunken 6922 tube, and a pair of EgglestonWorks Viginti speakers (their new take on the Andra's). Phono stage is the Pass Labs XP-15. For source material I have a Rega RP10 with the Apheta2 cartridge, and the Oppo BDP105 (Modwright upgrades) CD player. I have Audioquest Colorado interconnects (go easy here :) ) and Audioquest Oaks for speaker cable. My listening room is 13 x 19, carpeted floor, drywall walls and ceiling (well insulated). I set up with the equipment on the long wall, with me listening from the 13' side (with speakers in about 2 feet and about 8.5 feet apart).
I listen to a mix of vinyl and cd's; vinyl when I have several hours to listen quietly (and clean the records on the Clear Audio Matrix Pro Record Cleaning Machine). I listen to CD's when I have less than an hour, and for when I work out.
I am thinking about upgrading a single component, probably my preamplifier, to a Conrad Johnson GAT2 or a Pass Labs XS preamp (solid state). My thought was that this will likely make the most improvement in soundstage, imaging and overall musicality. A used GAT2 will be at least $14K and the Pass XS used is about $19K. I am interested in hearing from those who have had experience with upgrades like this. I am also wondering (as a middle class guy) how close does this come to the law of diminishing returns? Finally, is this the component you would upgrade, and if so, if you had a wide range of musical tastes-- mostly classical/full orchestra in vinyl and rock on CD's, which preamp would you select?
Please feel free to take a swipe at these questions, and also feel free to point out if you feel I should be asking different questions that will help increase my knowledge and advance the cause for others.
I am likely to go to an audio show sometime, but please don't suggest that I go and listen to the gear, as that's at least 200 - 400 miles, and I don't feel right about going to a brick and mortar store knowing that I will almost surely buy used.
Thanks in advance for whatever assistance you can provide.
Look into Room Treatments for sure spend $5000 there and you will be amazed...truly Think about it, look at ANY legit recording studio, they spend big $$ building the rooms. Good luck on your endeavor, bet that system is amazing! Scott
OK here is my 2 cents worth. If you want musicality then the Pass preamp is kind of not going to do what the CJ preamp will do, SS versus tube. BUT you are not asking for that much to begin with. Opening up the sound can be as easy as changing preamp resistors to Caddock, naked Vishay or Shinko (very musical) all for about $25 in cost plus installation. If you want to make a major improvement then you need to upgrade the phono stage and the DAC. But that will cost you big time.
Liz wrote Id seriously suggest checking out the Marantz SA-10 ($7000 list) as a great device. Esoteric and PS Audio also make good silver disc spinners. The Marantz is particularly good with CDs.
My opinion differs significantly. The Marantz to me is an average CD player. I have a buddy who spent $3K or more and it still sounds just OK. The Esoteric is more dry sounding than musical. How do I know this, well a speaker manufacturer uses my tubed DHT DAC as the DAC to a $27K Esoteric CDP because he feels the Esoteric which sounds excellent does not provide the overall musical experience he wants to demonstrate his speakers. The guy with the modified Marantz also changed to the PS audio and has again moved on from there stating
The (new transport and DAC in comparison to the PS Audio set-up he used I won't mention here) is open, has great prat, and
dynamic with very good micro and macro detail. I think it is transparent and
not colored. What it isn't is dry, thin, sterile, and fatiguing.
Tonally, it sounds natural with nice texture and has some meat on the bones
(which to me is how a lot of acoustic instruments sound) but still has bite
when a trumpet is blown harder, IMHO.
"I like it much better then my PS Audio Memory
player and Directstream DAC combo"
Not sure how helpful I am but that is what I can contribute.
1. I’d definitely keeps the Oak’s as a finished system item then add either AQ Fire or Wind ic’s. A substatial improvement will be gained using PSS vs copper. Huge. You’ll get more transparency and detail with smoothness. You will never go back. Niagara ic’s will provide you with a similar change for less money. I got off the merry go round with Oak and Fire in a very high end system. Properly done silver is fundamentally superior imho. Zero brightness. 2. try a very good dac with the oppo for another major upgrade. Demo the Mytek Manhattan if you can. Both with the CJ pre and direct without. Both of these upgrades will be money spent that will be very meaningful. Start with the ic’s imo
Yes, Mr_M, two pairs. To be honest, I thought the Rocket 88's were the cat's meow, but Johnny said try this, and I did. He also recommended the AQ Thunder power cord for my DAC (Ayre Codex). I ended up putting them on my amps, and I can honestly say they made a huge difference over the no name PC's that came with my equipment. Mind you, I own both Ayre and Atmasphere. Ralph seemed to dismiss a power cords ability to affect sound reproduction (if I recall correctly, if not, forgive me Ralph), and I have read that Ayre equipment seems to be very indifferent to changes in power cables (perhaps due to the zero feedback design- like Ralph's). In any case, the change was quite dramatic. And, for the positive.
Let me state that I am not someone who buys the most expensive doodad. In fact, my system has been bought entirely on Audiogon and US Audio Mart. I researched as best I can, and picked John Rutan's brain. To my aged ears, I have a stereo I can listen to for hours on end, and can't find anything lacking- the music speaks for itself. That being said, I hope the OP will give my posts some food for thought. Bob
Bob, Are you bi-wiring with two pairs of GO-4's? John Rutan called me and suggested the GO-4's. I haven't tried it yet. I still have a bi-wire pair of AQ. Rocket 88's. Guess I better GO-4 it! lol.... Tim
@tomic601 , +1 as usual. As an AQ user, I have great respect to their products. Johnny Rutan suggested that I upgrade my Rockefeller speaker cables to GO-4 last year. I bought them, but never installed them, as things sounded really great and installing new cables was a PITA. But, we got a new rug and things had to be moved, so while doing all the moving, I installed the GO-4's.
Reconnecting the system, even my friend, who thinks I am crazy buying all this stuff said: 'Wow, what a difference. Bass is more articulated, things seem more alive, and I thought is couldn't sound better. Even before Billie Holliday seemed to be in the room'. So, I think you should consider at least a cable upgrade, before spending a lot of money on a new component. You might be surprised. Johnny's Agon name is Audioconnection, should you wish to PM him. He won't sell you, but will give you honest information.
I also second having an electrician install a dedicated line to your system. Bob
by all means use the electrician friend to add a few dedicated circuits on the quiet leg of your panel. IF he is going to use unused breakers buy new ones from a quality company ( Square D ), hab ve him clean up box, check grounds, tighted everything. You can get Hospital grade Hubbel outlets for $30 and then the sky is limit....IMO $120 buys a killer outlet.
Room treatments - Call GIK Acoustics and speak w engineering sales person, they will advise on room. w your size room you are looking at about $2k, maybe 3... this will make a WORLD of difference....
get Jim Smiths book on better sound. Revisit your speaker setup using a precision setup laser ( Leica disto ) your speakers reward careful detailed setup !
Power conditioning for digital components, switching supplies and trash and has producers first. Here a Furman can be quite effective. I like the Niagara class gear for phono pre, but not Power amps.
You can easy trial PASS gear including used and demo gear with return via the dealer in Colorado...great accommodation
Used Sky interconnects validated by factory to be authentic would bring out nuances missing today.
@liamowen You are welcome. 15K is a lot and IS a significant spend.
Your post is clear, as is.
Let me put it this way, if I had your system and I had committed to spending 15K, I’d address the power side and cabling before choosing a preamp. For me, based on my experience, addressing the box and line to your room, and then the outlet on will give you system wide impact.
This ’should’ exceed the upside delta of impact from a top level preamp, which the GAT 2 most definitely is.
Having said the above, the addition of the right preamp for any system can be sublime (something I have recently experienced)...and it’s hard to put a price on that. However, what I've suggested will only add to what a top level preamp will do for your system.
All the best with the direction you choose and the choices you make.
Honestly you have a ways to go before you should even think of upgrading your electronics. The Audioquest Cables you have are not up tothe rest of your system and your digital should be way better than it is.
We were long time AQ dealers we have since moved on to the Wireworld cabling which we think sounds even better for similar pricing.
The Colorado didn't sound anywhere nearly as good as the Niagra which didn't sound anywhere as good as the Skys.
Also what are you using for power cables and a conditioner? Room treatments, racking and vibration isolation.
1: Upgrade cables 2: Add power conditioning and power cables 3: Vibration isolation for table and gear 4: Possibly better digital source
Then and only then would I even consider upgrading your preamp the ET 5 is very good, yes the GAT is even better but until you work on the envionrment first you will not gain the benefit of the GAT.
Also we have a set of ART amplifiers for $11k that will outperform yours you may want to make the swap before the preamp. If you sold your amps for $6k you would only have to add $5k to get a much better set of amplifiers. The ART/Gat combo was famous, the ET 5 was a mini Gat.
Thanks David. I understand that it's my decision, but being middle class makes $15,000 A LOT of money for me, as I suspect it is for at least some others. Maybe I can rephrase this as "what's the best bang for the buck" if I want to get a better soundstage (depth and instrument separation/definition) given the equipment that I have.
LAK-- I don't have a dedicated circuit, nor do I have upgraded outlets. That would be easy to do, though, as my best friend is an electrician. Is this upgrade generally viewed as helpful by the guys (and gals) with an electrical background? Again, I have no experience in electricity, other than getting shocked as a kid, and making sure I have no static electricity in my system when playing.
'Diminishing' and 'Returns' are highly personal and subjective. No one, and I repeat no one, can assess that for you. It's your 'Law' to make and live by.
Jim, your initial comments sounded fine to me, as do your others. I appreciate your taking the time. I thought about a Dr. Feickert before I got the Rega, and may explore that further. Meanwhile, thanks so much for your VERY helpful comments.
Photon46-- Thanks for the room treatment suggestion. I don't have any now, but certainly could add some, as this is a listening / home office / workout room (with a couch, ottoman, desk and cross trainer. I must admit, though-- I have no knowledge of room treatments at all-- what is most likely to be the best bang for the buck improvement given the info I have provided so far?
Thanks everybody for the input so far. Please continue to weigh in. It is really helpful to me-- and thanks to George, who suggested that I put this on the forum in the first place.
You have a system that looks like it sounds great and probably does. You are also in an area of significant diminishing returns. I have been in a similar situation and it seems like you can churn through equipment while making little if any positive improvement.
In your position changing to a better preamp will make an improvement, but the change will not be really significant because of diminishing returns.
Because you only listen casually to digital I would not spend much time or effort there.
I would focus on my analog front end. Rega makes a good turntable and you have their best. Changing to a idler, direct drive, or high torque belt drive (i.e. Dr. Feickert) will make a real and significant change to your system. I have had Rega, Michelle, Basis, and a lot of other turntables. Changing to a vintage Garrard 301 made a real improvement in my system. I think you should give a high torque turntable with a quality tonearm a try. I don't think you will want to go back.
In my opinion, you have a rock solid system and the law of diminishing returns is a killer. One will have to spend a lot of money to hear a bit more soundstage, imaging, and overall musicality. I'm guessing that's what you are after by your post. I honestly am not sure when all is said and done that the switch in preamps is going to make that much difference. As Audiophiles, many of us (myself included) get bitten by the upgrade bug not that there is anything wrong with that. I'd be curious to know if you are using dedicated circuit breakers and upgraded AC duplex outlets? In not to me that comes forst.
Upgrade your sources first. Start with the cartridge and and the CD player. Nothing is wrong with them, although the Apheta has its detractors, I just believe their replacement would provide you the most cost effective path.
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We all have different ideas about where the set point for "diminishing returns" sets in. That said, I can't over emphasize how useful I found it to spend the time and money to go to an audio show and spend three days listening to a broad range of equipment at various price points. It really helped clarify the places money would be best spent in my case. It certainly furthered my sense of wonder at how varied audiophiles are in what appeals to them (and made me realize the suggestions one receives on these forums are quite "varied" in applicability to my tastes.) I would suggest that if your living situation allows consideration of acoustic treatments for your listening area, that is also an area that will provide improvements disproportionate to their cost. Good luck in your quest.
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